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Old
01-07-2007, 08:57 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
MacT is still not done grooming Raffi. He's quietly turning him into an elite player.

Playing Torres with Stoll and Pisani is perfect and should continue. Especially given that RPM isn't available. In short Raffi is *stuck* playing with two players he respects and who he has seen have taken ever bigger roles with the club. Perfect role models. The Stoll maturation preceded Torres but Raffi is buying in bigtime.

This line is an ES winner for a reason. One of the best in the league. They don't cut corners, don't cheat for points, and just dominate the opposition to submission. These guys are ES kings.
That is true and I hope it continues and he can finally lose that streaky tag that to be fair he has earned. But he has been fantastic lately.

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01-07-2007, 09:01 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Torres isn't below average at anything?

He is a terrible passer (that tip pass he made to Pisani was the first time he's made that play and connected all season... most of the time it goes the other way).

He's terribly inconsistant... he'll go on 20 game stretches either way where he scores at or above 1PPG, then he'll get 2 points in his next 20 games.

His physical play follows the same sort of flow. He'll go stretches where he plays a great physical game, and then follow it up by not hitting anyone for 3 or 4 games.

And while Ales Hemsky's may grow on trees, our tree is currently bare of them... and at the same time we have a player in JFJ who plays a very similar game to Torres, and is on a pretty similar career path (Raffi didn't get his first NHL goal until his 35 NHL game).

He's a very inconsistant player. And while there are a few guys I would definitely trade before him, there's also quite a few players who I would trade after him, especially in a deal for a Pitkanen.
I think you may know less about hockey than any person I have heard on here. Torres is the only player on our roster who is able to pass the puck off the boards....just watch any of pisani's goals and see who gets him the effing puck...talk about a guy who cant freakin pass pisani is the worst passes on the team other than the defense. Torres is inconsistent cause he plays against the best players on the other team. Dont pick on a player who is our best plus minus player when even smyth is coughing up with his passes!

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01-07-2007, 09:07 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nols View Post
So why doesn't Raffi Play on the powerplay? 2nd unit? I'm sorry MacT I've supported you for seasons but I don't understand this.
He's been terrible on the PP.

Absolutely terrible.

ZERO points in over 70 minutes on the PP.

You have to be doing something special to be doing worse than Steve Staios on the PP

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01-07-2007, 09:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
He's been terrible on the PP.

Absolutely terrible.

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ZERO points in over 70 minutes on the PP
.

You have to be doing something special to be doing worse than Steve Staios on the PP
Damn you PDO! On top of everything. I've stared at that # for PP minutes and have wondered whether its an error. The mind plays tricks and the # in this case is different than the perception.

That said note that I am carefully not argueing extra PP minutes for Torres

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01-07-2007, 09:19 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDO View Post
He's been terrible on the PP.

Absolutely terrible.

ZERO points in over 70 minutes on the PP.

You have to be doing something special to be doing worse than Steve Staios on the PP
Nedved has played 2 games with the Oil and has already got a point (goal) on the PP. How said is that.

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01-07-2007, 09:20 PM
  #31
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Raffi Torres is...




Playing well right now and really helping the team. At the beginning of the year he was worse then useless and could be that again in a week, you never know with this guy.

If Torres can land you a young and improving #1 Defenseman, deal him yesterday.

Hemsky's skill is irreplacable, Ryan Smyth's Heart is irreplacable, Torres' toughness and goal scoring can be replaced and it's as simple as that.

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01-07-2007, 09:34 PM
  #32
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Dispelling past notions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Also when Torres disappears he generally does it for a quarter of a season at a time.
Not accurate anymore. Other than MacT tightening Torres leash a round Remembrance day to jog his memory..(note poetic license) none of these extended power blackouts are occurring anymore As I mentioned to DB by improving his passing game Raffi is eliminating the extended no production periods.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Raffi Torres is...




Playing well right now and really helping the team. At the beginning of the year he was worse then useless and could be that again in a week, you never know with this guy.
In the first month of the season ftr Raffi in 13 games had 2goals, 5 assists, 7pts, and was +3. ALL ES stats and earning his pay and much more.

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01-07-2007, 09:59 PM
  #33
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Raffi needs to become a better passer to be a regular PP contributor. I still stand by rather keeping Torres than Lupul. Torres brings a game that no other Oiler/prospect is poised to bring. Lupul maybe replaceable by Schremp who is a better passer but a lesser skater. IMO Stoll and Torres are a dynamic duo, both are physical and big time potential play-off players. Both are really good friends as well. IMO they are big time keys to our future along with Hemsky.

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01-07-2007, 09:59 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Not accurate anymore. Other than MacT tightening Torres leash a round Remembrance day to jog his memory..(note poetic license) none of these extended power blackouts are occurring anymore As I mentioned to DB by improving his passing game Raffi is eliminating the extended no production periods.
In my books during the first 20 games or so Raffi was close to useless out there. I am not just referring to goals and assists either.

Since then he has been fantastic, it has been night and day.

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01-07-2007, 10:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
In my books during the first 20 games or so Raffi was close to useless out there. I am not just referring to goals and assists either.

Since then he has been fantastic, it has been night and day.
Yep. But for the useless part.

In fairness to Raffi the first 20 game segment contained a stretch in November where MacT reduced Raffis minutes I think to send a message that he wanted more.

Sure worked!

We can all agree that the last 20 game segment has more resembled the playoff Torres
Raffi has 16 ES pts in the last 21 games. Just monster #'s.

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01-07-2007, 10:35 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Raffi needs to become a better passer to be a regular PP contributor. I still stand by rather keeping Torres than Lupul. Torres brings a game that no other Oiler/prospect is poised to bring. Lupul maybe replaceable by Schremp who is a better passer but a lesser skater. IMO Stoll and Torres are a dynamic duo, both are physical and big time potential play-off players. Both are really good friends as well. IMO they are big time keys to our future along with Hemsky.
It is encouraging that Raffi has passed his career high in assists this season in only 41 games.

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01-07-2007, 11:33 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcory View Post
I think you may know less about hockey than any person I have heard on here. Torres is the only player on our roster who is able to pass the puck off the boards....just watch any of pisani's goals and see who gets him the effing puck...talk about a guy who cant freakin pass pisani is the worst passes on the team other than the defense. Torres is inconsistent cause he plays against the best players on the other team. Dont pick on a player who is our best plus minus player when even smyth is coughing up with his passes!
Watch him throw a pass in the neutral zone.

Count how many times a game he makes those horrible tip passes that end up killing any sort of rush (yes, the same pass he made to Pisani for the goal).

I don't make this stuff up... just watch him. There's lots of things Torres does well... passing is not one of them. Though his backhand has gotten to at least an NHL level this season.

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01-07-2007, 11:39 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Oilerfan_55 View Post
It is encouraging that Raffi has passed his career high in assists this season in only 41 games.
Yep this is an area I am very happy with. It used to look silly with 25+ goals and 13 assists or whatever, he is turning into a more complete player. I do not think he is a good passer but he is getting smarter and quicker with his passes.

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01-07-2007, 11:45 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Nols View Post
So why doesn't Raffi Play on the powerplay? 2nd unit? I'm sorry MacT I've supported you for seasons but I don't understand this.
Torres is god awful on the PP.

He has been for some time and it's likely that he'll never be an impact player there. He simply doesn't handle the puck well enough and no, he doesn't pass the puck well enough either no matter what Replacement says about his 15 ES assists. (BTW - Hemsky would likely have the same number of ES assists if he'd played the 80 ES minutes he missed with the injury. In fact, given his track record it's pretty likely he'd have added more than that.)

Where Torres' inability on the PP really shows up is in the PPGF/hr stat. Right now his number is 1.7 PPGF/hr while he's out there on the ice. That's phenomenally poor. (A decent team rate is around 6.5 - 7.0 PPGF/hr and good players are routinely over 8 PPGF/hr) Of course he's also at 0.0 PPP/hr this year. His recent track record is much better than that of course, but it's still a long way from being a poor PP player.

That dog just doesn't hunt and I hope MacT continues to hold him off that unit.

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01-07-2007, 11:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by graveyardshift View Post
Torres is an all arounder

he can score, good in his own zone and can step up and be physical

that is why so many rumours start about the guy

as for Lupul--he is just have trouble fitting in

he is a poor goal scorer
Also a horrible forechecker and passer. He could be a real good player if he learns to see the ice better as he's got all the physical skills. The mental part has to be improved.

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01-07-2007, 11:50 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
This is a continuing distortion based on past performance that can't explain Raffi having 15 ES assists. I've seen some decent passes in that bunch. I think you have too. Raffi's worked hard on this aspect of his game and has said so repeatedly. Lets give the nod to an improving stat.
His number of assists do not reflect his ability to make a pass. How many of those 15 ES assists were passes vs shots that generated rebounds? He still has issues making anything resembling a 10 foot pass.

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Again this is past results. The current season doesn't suggest this extreme of an inconsistency.
It's pretty darn close.

games 1-10 - 2g-2a 4pts
games 11-20 - 1g 3a 4pts
games 21-30 - 3g 6a 9pts
games 31-41 - 2g 4a 6pts

8 points in his first 21 games, 15 points in his next 21 games. I'm not so inclined to believe he's fully turned the corner yet and turned into some sort of model of consistency.

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The life of a 20something goal scorer who wasn't a good passer often looks like that. Its different now. By improving his passing game Torres is finding a way to increase his effectiveness and consistency. 15assists in 41 games exceeds his assist total for any complete year played. Please grant that this change is significant. I think its enough of a sample to start ruling out aberation.
He got 9 of his assists over a 14 game span... I wouldn't call that a huge sample size. He's done very similar things in the past (mind you it was goal scoring and not assists then).

And even with all of this new found "consistency", he's only on pace for 5 more points than he had all of last year. And again, these 20 game samples aren't that telling of his consistency. I'm not saying he needs to put up 15 points every 20 games, but he still has that rollercoaster syndrome going, and I'm not convinced that he's out of it yet.

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Disagree here. Stoll-Torres is a wrecking crew in more games than not. Theres still some no hitters pitched but the entire club sometimes gets in the habit of all star game friendliness.
Well that's when it's up to guys like Torres to get everyone out of the no-hitter attitude. Whether that's taking a run at someone or whatever. That's part of his job and effectiveness as a player. He needs to make a concentrated effort to bring his physical game when no one else is.

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If this is any way a suggestion JFJ could fill for Raffi than this is a disservice to the solid ES minutes Raffi is contributing. There are few better ES players in the league right now.
My point was actually that we had a player who was more capable of replacing Torres down the road than Hemsky. It was no way meant that he could replace him this year or even next.

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01-07-2007, 11:50 PM
  #42
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Raffi likes to pee in front of Yellowhead Casino...what a guy

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01-07-2007, 11:53 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Watch him throw a pass in the neutral zone.

Count how many times a game he makes those horrible tip passes that end up killing any sort of rush (yes, the same pass he made to Pisani for the goal).

I don't make this stuff up... just watch him. There's lots of things Torres does well... passing is not one of them. Though his backhand has gotten to at least an NHL level this season.
I totally agree with you on the specifics dawgbone. Anybody that thinks Torres can pass the puck just doesn't watch him enough. It's a key weakness for him, but at least he appears to have improved his decision making a tad, thus making it less of a liability... Outside of that brutal breakaway goal by Ohlund on the expiring PP that he caused a few games ago. That was one of the dumbest and poorly executed passes I've seen from the Oilers in awhile.

However, Torres has improved a lot. He's been an impact player for the Oilers at ES and that has been dearly needed. Sure he's benefitted from strong play by Pisani and Stoll, but he's made a real contribution there too IMO.

Oi'll Say is completely out to lunch on some of his talking points (especially trashing Hemsky to make his point. Where did that come from? Completely bizarre.) but I agree that Torres is not a player to be traded right now. I think he's now a player that can be trusted and that's an important quality on any club.

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01-07-2007, 11:57 PM
  #44
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My point was actually that we had a player who was more capable of replacing Torres down the road than Hemsky. It was no way meant that he could replace him this year or even next.
Frankly, the longer this goes on the more Jacques looks like a stiff to me.

The guy is +0/-9 at 5V5 thus far this year. That's fricking unbelievable. That 0 GF is fully deserved to my eye too. No Oiler handles the puck in the offensive zone like Jacques does - he treats it like a live grenade at all times.

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01-08-2007, 12:40 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Torres is god awful on the PP.
Agreed.

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He has been for some time and it's likely that he'll never be an impact player there. He simply doesn't handle the puck well enough and no, he doesn't pass the puck well enough either no matter what Replacement says about his 15 ES assists. (BTW - Hemsky would likely have the same number of ES assists if he'd played the 80 ES minutes he missed with the injury. In fact, given his track record it's pretty likely he'd have added more than that.)
ftr nowhere in the thread
will you note me saying Torres is a great passer. Just responding to him still being labeled as a terrible passer. But he's improved in the area. Which is what I've said.

Regarding the ES Torres/Hemsky stats It never escaped me that Hemsky has played less games and therefore has less ES minutes. But I DID already know that Torres has exceeded Hemskys ES production rate.

Hemsky has 379ES minutes, 15 pts, for a ES pts/60mins rate of 2.37

Torres has 465ES minutes, 23 pts for a ES pts/60mins rate of 2.96

Somewhat interesting #'s

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01-08-2007, 12:45 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Agreed.

ftr nowhere in the thread
will you note me saying Torres is a great passer. Just responding to him still being labeled as a terrible passer. But he's improved in the area. Which is what I've said.

Regarding the ES Torres/Hemsky stats It never escaped me that Hemsky has played less games and therefore has less ES minutes. But I DID already know that Torres has exceeded Hemskys ES production rate.

Hemsky has 379ES minutes, 15 pts, for a ES pts/60mins rate of 2.37

Torres has 465ES minutes, 23 pts for a ES pts/60mins rate of 2.96

Somewhat interesting #'s

Those numbers are very interesting.... Thanks for bringing those up.

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01-08-2007, 12:55 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
His number of assists do not reflect his ability to make a pass. How many of those 15 ES assists were passes vs shots that generated rebounds? He still has issues making anything resembling a 10 foot pass.
I can recall some of these being some decent passes. In any case he's suddenly producing assists and twice as much as his usual rate.
But I've considered your point and checked his shot totals and scoring percentage to note any change. Shot totals are his typical pace whereas scoring % has dropped 5%. You could be on to something.

Raffi himself is saying his scoring chances haven't been as point range as before thus forcing more passes or maybe just hoping for a rebound(not a bad play on a team instructed to go to the net)






Quote:
And even with all of this new found "consistency", he's only on pace for 5 more points than he had all of last year. And again, these 20 game samples aren't that telling of his consistency. I'm not saying he needs to put up 15 points every 20 games, but he still has that rollercoaster syndrome going, and I'm not convinced that he's out of it yet.
Fair point. I think more goals will come and he'll still notch 20. Lets see if he keeps contributing assists at all.



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Well that's when it's up to guys like Torres to get everyone out of the no-hitter attitude. Whether that's taking a run at someone or whatever. That's part of his job and effectiveness as a player. He needs to make a concentrated effort to bring his physical game when no one else is.
Agreed, but I've seen Stoll-Torres initiate that with greater consistency. Further to consistency I'm seeing far less of the games where Torres isn't contributing something of value.


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My point was actually that we had a player who was more capable of replacing Torres down the road than Hemsky. It was no way meant that he could replace him this year or even next.
yeah, I wsn't sure, thanks for the clarification

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01-08-2007, 12:57 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Regarding the ES Torres/Hemsky stats It never escaped me that Hemsky has played less games and therefore has less ES minutes. But I DID already know that Torres has exceeded Hemskys ES production rate.

Hemsky has 379ES minutes, 15 pts, for a ES pts/60mins rate of 2.37

Torres has 465ES minutes, 23 pts for a ES pts/60mins rate of 2.96

Somewhat interesting #'s
Yeah they're interesting but it's important to note a couple of things.

First off, these are excellent rates for both players. If you're north of 2.0, you're doing something right based on all the data that I've looked at.

Secondly, this isn't really new territory for Torres at ES - he's pretty consistently been above 2.0 ESP/hr since he has been an Oiler. I don't think his results should be painted as though he's had a total revelation or anything.

Torres has played great this year, and I'm not willing to make a bunch of excuses for Hemsky, but I think that it should be considered that Hemsky has also played some games recovering from injury and likely while injured as well.

Oh and dawgbone is basically right about the splits - Torres' numbers aren't all that consistent and his results really mirror Pisani's and Stoll's to a large extent. It's hard to decouple them at the moment, but needless to say I notice sharp play from his linemates more than I notice it from Torres.

They're both good players and they aren't part of the problem. They're young and hopefully they'll be around a long while. The only reason we're talking about the two of them is because Oi'll Say lumped Hemsky in here for some crazy reason. (Trading Hemsky for a dman is beyond stupid for many, many reasons... but that's another story.)

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01-08-2007, 01:06 AM
  #49
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I don't know how anyone cannot be impressed with Torres play this year.

He started off slow, but has been dominant on ES ever since. He's playing at the level he did in the playoffs.

Sure he has a few flaws in his game (passing, inconsistency with regards to throwing hits), but he's definitely a better player this year as opposed to last.

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01-08-2007, 01:13 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Yeah they're interesting but it's important to note a couple of things.

First off, these are excellent rates for both players. If you're north of 2.0, you're doing something right based on all the data that I've looked at.
Oh definitely. Goalies around the league are thankful not everybody performs ES at this rate But I'm not sure you noticed that Hemsky has kicked the ES work into overdrive after struggling earlier in the year. There was one point in the season where Hemsky had around 5 ES pts and for forwards Only Petersen had less.

Quote:
Secondly, this isn't really new territory for Torres at ES - he's pretty consistently been above 2.0 ESP/hr since he has been an Oiler. I don't think his results should be painted as though he's had a total revelation or anything.
Thanks for the info.


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They're both good players and they aren't part of the problem. They're young and hopefully they'll be around a long while.
Yep, i'm hoping Stoll-Torres are here for the longhaul.

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