HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Washington Capitals
Notices

For next season . . .

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-08-2007, 01:30 PM
  #51
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
OK, if that was the whole story than yes I would pay him around 4 million per. But all you did was list all the positives about Zubrus. What about some of the negatives.

The main couple of those are...

1) Inconsistent - Sure this guy can look great at times, but he can also go through a month without being noticed

2) Injuries - He is often injured. You can pretty much count on him to miss at least 10 games a season every year, at least. He only averages 67 games per year.

And you can't tell me that this guy is always a "bull in the corners". For a guy who is 6'4 220 he doesn't play like it every game.

I have noticed that Zubrus has gradually improved his consistentcy each and every year with the Caps. He is getting better and better. Sure some of it is due to Ovy BUT also:

He has learned alot from Ovechkin and you can see it in his play. In some sense the same way the players who played with Gretzky became better themselves.

Please produce your list of top centers who we can get for the same price that would fit your qualifications.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:31 PM
  #52
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
I'm pretty much in the same boat as Drake, et. al. I like Zubrus as a player, but he's not a #1 center. He's going to ask for #1 center money, and I hope the Caps don't give it to him.
Zubrus has 36 points or so. That would place him as a top 20 center in the league and this is including his scoring drought. Once he finds a bit more consistency, his numbers will only get better.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?fetc...ewName=summary

He has more points than Datysuk, Lang and Eric Staal. Tied with Brad Richards. More points than Gionta (yes, i know, not a center).

So he isnt doing too shabby offensively.

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
  #53
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I don't know anyone who wants Beech at #2 center. Those who would argue Zubrus should be allowed to walk, do so because they want to see him replaced. If we're talking $5M, the Zubrus skeptics suggest playing the market, looking at other guys who are out there. There is a rich market for UFA centers this summer, including guys like Marleau, Gomez, Drury, Briere, Comrie, Nylander.
I like some of those guys more than others, to put it mildly, but the point is that there are a lot of scoring centers available, in addition to Zubrus. If he's really pulling down $5M/yr and term, then give some of the other options a hard look. Now if he signs for $3.5M, then that is different. You won't find better at that price, and props to him if he takes that little to stay in Washington. Yet I don't think he has to do so, and I don't think he will do so.

At the price he's going to be seeking, look at all the options, not just the bird in the hand.
OK...Marleau, Gomez, Briere will all be slated to make $6 million or more. No way we can afford that! If we cant pay a dman that what makes you think we will pay a center that or we should even consider it????

Comrie and Nylander are soft as butter and inferior to Zubrus anyhow. They will make about the same cash.

Drury is the only one to consider and you better believe he will make more than Zubrus too. Maybe not as much as those other guys but more than Zubrus.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
  #54
Chimaera
same ol' Caps
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: La Plata, Maryland
Country: United States
Posts: 21,691
vCash: 500
Zubrus played well with Semin during the lockout as his center.

I wouldn't see how they'd not be able to find similar chemistry again.

Chimaera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
  #55
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I don't know anyone who wants Beech at #2 center. Those who would argue Zubrus should be allowed to walk, do so because they want to see him replaced. If we're talking $5M, the Zubrus skeptics suggest playing the market, looking at other guys who are out there. There is a rich market for UFA centers this summer, including guys like Marleau, Gomez, Drury, Briere, Comrie, Nylander.

I like some of those guys more than others, to put it mildly, but the point is that there are a lot of scoring centers available, in addition to Zubrus. If he's really pulling down $5M/yr and term, then give some of the other options a hard look. Now if he signs for $3.5M, then that is different. You won't find better at that price, and props to him if he takes that little to stay in Washington. Yet I don't think he has to do so, and I don't think he will do so.

At the price he's going to be seeking, look at all the options, not just the bird in the hand.
Out of those guys you mentioned, the only one worth pursunig is Marleau and maybe Gomez, but I'm not a fan of him all that much. By the way, doesnt Zubrus have more points than Gomez? I could be wrong. The rest are overrated, IMHO.

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:35 PM
  #56
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
OK Japser,

Come at me with a list of 5-10 guys who you would get to replace him at an equivalent price. I'd like to see your list. I gave Drake my list of Dmen.

Your turn to step up.
Well I would much rather have Backstrom center Ovechkin than Zubrus. I think Ovechkin needs a player like Backstrom to bring out his best, which I don't think we have seen yet.

So I would have no problem letting Zuby walk and having Backstrom take his place.

Now that means Zuby would either move to 1st line RW or 2nd line C. My take on that is this...

Zuby is not worth nearly as much if he doesn't skate with Ovechkin. I fact that Zuby's only started putting up good numbers once he started playing with Ovechkin is not a coincidence to me. You take him off a line with Ovechkin and I fear his point totals start looking like they did in the pre-Ovechkin days. So moving him to center Semin on the center line is not an option I am sure I like.

Now if they keep Zuby I would love to see him play on the RW with Ovechkin and Backstrom. I think that would be a really good line. However I would much rather see the Caps continue to use Clark on that RW or spend around 3.5 per on a guy like Hartnell than give Zuby 3.5 per on a long term deal.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:35 PM
  #57
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalPunishment View Post
Out of those guys you mentioned, the only one worth pursunig is Marleau and maybe Gomez, but I'm not a fan of him all that much. By the way, doesnt Zubrus have more points than Gomez? I could be wrong. The rest are overrated, IMHO.
Marleau and Gomez will make bank this offseason. I would venture to say at least 50% more than Zubrus. Why would the Caps, who are so feeble on D, do that?

We'd have to look at guys like Comrie and Nylander....they'd make about the same and would be a downgrade.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:36 PM
  #58
strungout
Professional Killer
 
strungout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 29,031
vCash: 500
To me its about value.

Beech at 800K per season on the 2nd line (preferably lower)....is worth it.

Zubrus at 4 or 5+ million per on the 1st line....not worth it since his production doesnt relate to that type of salary.

If he wants 3 or 3.5 per season and a role on the second line RW where he belongs...then sure...stay on board. Otherwise...see you later.

The Caps are going to keep him reguardless of how I or anyone else feels so Its a moot point. Ill be ok with him staying I guess...just not thrilled. Id rather see them use the money on defense.

strungout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:37 PM
  #59
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Well I would much rather have Backstrom center Ovechkin than Zubrus. I think Ovechkin needs a player like Backstrom to bring out his best, which I don't think we have seen yet.

So I would have no problem letting Zuby walk and having Backstrom take his place.

Now that means Zuby would either move to 1st line RW or 2nd line C. My take on that is this...

Zuby is not worth nearly as much if he doesn't skate with Ovechkin. I fact that Zuby's only started putting up good numbers once he started playing with Ovechkin is not a coincidence to me. You take him off a line with Ovechkin and I fear his point totals start looking like they did in the pre-Ovechkin days. So moving him to center Semin on the center line is not an option I am sure I like.

Now if they keep Zuby I would love to see him play on the RW with Ovechkin and Backstrom. I think that would be a really good line. However I would much rather see the Caps continue to use Clark on that RW or spend around 3.5 per on a guy like Hartnell than give Zuby 3.5 per on a long term deal.
But you still didnt address the question:

The problem is that EVEN with Backstrom (ASSUMING he comes over AND is everything he is cracked up to be) who will be our 2nd line center? Klepis? Beech? Steckel?

No.

We'd have to find a top 2 center regardless should Zubrus walk.

Who would that be in your book? Comrie? Nylander? Stumpel?

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:38 PM
  #60
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
To me its about value.

Beech at 800K per season on the 2nd line (preferably lower)....is worth it.

Zubrus at 4 or 5+ million per on the 1st line....not worth it since his production doesnt relate to that type of salary.

If he wants 3 or 3.5 per season and a role on the second line RW where he belongs...then sure...stay on board. Otherwise...see you later.

The Caps are going to keep him reguardless of how I or anyone else feels so Its a moot point. Ill be ok with him staying I guess...just not thrilled. Id rather see them use the money on defense.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:40 PM
  #61
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by strungout View Post
To me its about value.

Beech at 800K per season on the 2nd line (preferably lower)....is worth it.

Zubrus at 4 or 5+ million per on the 1st line....not worth it since his production doesnt relate to that type of salary.

If he wants 3 or 3.5 per season and a role on the second line RW where he belongs...then sure...stay on board. Otherwise...see you later.

The Caps are going to keep him reguardless of how I or anyone else feels so Its a moot point. Ill be ok with him staying I guess...just not thrilled. Id rather see them use the money on defense.
Well assuming you want the Caps to finish with a top 10 pick next year as well then I agree with you. Beech and Klepis are not NHL players. Having them center Semin is a waste of his talent as we are finding out.

If we let Zubrus walk we must ..I mean MUST..replace him with an NHL level top 2 center if we want to consider the playoffs.

I love how you all just ASSUME Backstrom will come over. There are no guarantees that he wont stay another year in the SEL. Also what if it is hard for him to adjust. That would be an awful lot to ask of him.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:41 PM
  #62
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
Some make it seem like production wise, Zubrus is horrible though.

When he gets on a hot streak, he does really well. The season is only half way through and he's on pace for more than 30 goals and 40+ assists. For a middle of the pack team, that is still developing that isnt too shabby.

Look at all the other centers in the league. Most have great puck moving defenseman that help a lot at even strength and many have half way decent PP QBs which also help points wise.

Zubrus and Ovechkin, although I like Potheir and Morrisonn (they are normally on the ice with the top line), are not the greatest puck moving defenseman in the leauge compared to guys on the Senators, Devils, Sharks, Ducks, Stars and so on.

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:44 PM
  #63
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
But you still didnt address the question:

The problem is that EVEN with Backstrom (ASSUMING he comes over AND is everything he is cracked up to be) who will be our 2nd line center? Klepis? Beech? Steckel?

No.

We'd have to find a top 2 center regardless should Zubrus walk.

Who would that be in your book? Comrie? Nylander? Stumpel?
Like I have already stated. I would rather have Beech at .800 for one or two more season and use our top pick to draft a 2nd line center than sign Zuby at 4.5-5 per for 4 or 5 years.

Short term their is no question the Caps would be better off with Zuby. However long term paying a guy like him that kind of money is going to hurt this org.

If the Caps give Zubrus 4.5-5 per for 4 or 5 years that is a contract I guarantee the Caps org will regret it 3 years from now, maybe sooner. And there is no way you should ever sign a contract that you are going to regret down the road (unless you are the Redskins).

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:46 PM
  #64
Mothra
Registered User
 
Mothra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
Given that he is a 20-30 goal guy with 50-60 pt potential and:

he is 6'4" 220 and a bull in the corners,

he skates like he is 5'10' 180lbs

he can play any forward position

is responsible defensively and has improved in the face off circle

is Ovy's mentor, guide, buddy, and translator

is a team leader

has been with the team for some time....

Well 3.5-4 mil for 4 years is something I'd definitely do.
ok....you might want to sit down for this....I totally agree.

I think I need a shower now

Mothra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:46 PM
  #65
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
No one want to take a stab at my couple of posts (#52 and #62 of this thread i believe) ?

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:47 PM
  #66
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
I love how you all just ASSUME Backstrom will come over. There are no guarantees that he wont stay another year in the SEL. Also what if it is hard for him to adjust. That would be an awful lot to ask of him.
I would rather go into next season with Beech and no Backstrom than pay 4.5-5 per for Zubrus. He just isn't worth it. And inking players to bad contracts is never a good idea.

If Backstrom doesn't come over, than you make a trade to bring in someone who can fill in for another year. But you don't sign a horrible contract because you are desperate.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:47 PM
  #67
Beukeboom Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,521
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalPunishment View Post
Out of those guys you mentioned, the only one worth pursunig is Marleau and maybe Gomez, but I'm not a fan of him all that much. By the way, doesnt Zubrus have more points than Gomez? I could be wrong. The rest are overrated, IMHO.

It's my understanding that Marleau isn't a UFA until 2008 (same time as Joe Thornton).

For a team on a tight budget - I don't think you can afford to overpay a guy by $1.5-2M. Ovechkin's going to break the bank coming off his rookie deal, and he's got to make the people around him better (which he does). I don't think that a team can afford to pay DZ for the "extra" points he gets because he's playing w/ AO and the organization is effectively going to be paying AO for that production.

I don't think you want AO & DZ to be making a combined $11+M if the team is going to be around the bottom of the salary cap range. Guys that make $4-5M have to make the others around them better. I don't follow the Caps enough to know if Zubrus is that kind of player or not.

Beukeboom Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:48 PM
  #68
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Like I have already stated. I would rather have Beech at .800 for one or two more season and use our top pick to draft a 2nd line center than sign Zuby at 4.5-5 per for 4 or 5 years.

Short term their is no question the Caps would be better off with Zuby. However long term paying a guy like him that kind of money is going to hurt this org.

If the Caps give Zubrus 4.5-5 per for 4 or 5 years that is a contract I guarantee the Caps org will regret it 3 years from now, maybe sooner. And there is no way you should ever sign a contract that you are going to regret down the road (unless you are the Redskins).
So you would essentially be wasting the next 2 years with Beech at center. Then you would have to let this drafted center develop and perhaps 4 years down the road we'd be ready to contend.

By then Ovechkin will be headed to Toronto and Kolzig retired.

We might as well trade Ovechkin and Kolzig now if that is the path you intend to take.

Beech and Klepis have been horrendous this year. Between them they have 7 goals and 17 assists and a -4 +/- om a combined 68 games. If that is not putrid production I dont know what is.

You want THAT for 2 more years and expect to improve?

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:49 PM
  #69
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
ok....you might want to sit down for this....I totally agree.

I think I need a shower now
Well if Mothra and I agree on something then it must be right.

I think hell just froze over...

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:49 PM
  #70
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
It's my understanding that Marleau isn't a UFA until 2008 (same time as Joe Thornton).

For a team on a tight budget - I don't think you can afford to overpay a guy by $1.5-2M. Ovechkin's going to break the bank coming off his rookie deal, and he's got to make the people around him better (which he does). I don't think that a team can afford to pay DZ for the "extra" points he gets because he's playing w/ AO and the organization is effectively going to be paying AO for that production.

I don't think you want AO & DZ to be making a combined $11+M if the team is going to be around the bottom of the salary cap range. Guys that make $4-5M have to make the others around them better. I don't follow the Caps enough to know if Zubrus is that kind of player or not.
He isn't, and I couldn't agree more with this post.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:50 PM
  #71
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
It's my understanding that Marleau isn't a UFA until 2008 (same time as Joe Thornton).

For a team on a tight budget - I don't think you can afford to overpay a guy by $1.5-2M. Ovechkin's going to break the bank coming off his rookie deal, and he's got to make the people around him better (which he does). I don't think that a team can afford to pay DZ for the "extra" points he gets because he's playing w/ AO and the organization is effectively going to be paying AO for that production.

I don't think you want AO & DZ to be making a combined $11+M if the team is going to be around the bottom of the salary cap range. Guys that make $4-5M have to make the others around them better. I don't follow the Caps enough to know if Zubrus is that kind of player or not.
But if it aint broke, dont fix it.

Zubrus and Ovechkin work. They've proven that. How much better can Ovechkin get than 100 point seasons with someone else at the helm? You cant get much better than that. He's on pace for something around 110 this year. So Ovechkin/Zubrus combination work.

We just need a working combination for Semin, and I'm hoping Backstrom will help in that regard.

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:51 PM
  #72
Mothra
Registered User
 
Mothra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 7,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
OK, if that was the whole story than yes I would pay him around 4 million per. But all you did was list all the positives about Zubrus. What about some of the negatives.

The main couple of those are...

1) Inconsistent - Sure this guy can look great at times, but he can also go through a month without being noticed

2) Injuries - He is often injured. You can pretty much count on him to miss at least 10 games a season every year, at least. He only averages 67 games per year.
1) I totally disagree.....to me, even when he isnt scoring he is doing all the little things...he is still hitting..playing hard...killing penalties...etc....the guy you describe is Zednik. Historically when Zednik isnt scoring he is a total non-factor and not even noticed

2) Injuries suck.....he seems to be a bit healthier the past couple seasons though

Mothra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:51 PM
  #73
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
So you would essentially be wasting the next 2 years with Beech at center. Then you would have to let this drafted center develop and perhaps 4 years down the road we'd be ready to contend.

By then Ovechkin will be headed to Toronto and Kolzig retired.

We might as well trade Ovechkin and Kolzig now if that is the path you intend to take.

Beech and Klepis have been horrendous this year. Between them they have 7 goals and 17 assists and a -4 +/- om a combined 68 games. If that is not putrid production I dont know what is.

You want THAT for 2 more years and expect to improve?
I don't want that, but I am not giving Zubrus 4.5-5 per year.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:52 PM
  #74
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalPunishment View Post
No one want to take a stab at my couple of posts (#52 and #62 of this thread i believe) ?
CP,

The DumpZubrusNow club believes that his production is strictly limited to the Ovechkin factor so any points he scores are invalid. They believe you could stick Boyd Gordon with Ovy and he would have similar production.

Never mind that we look terrible when Klepis has to center Ovy in the couple games that Dainus missed.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2007, 01:52 PM
  #75
The Viking Fury
Registered User
 
The Viking Fury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
I would rather go into next season with Beech and no Backstrom than pay 4.5-5 per for Zubrus. He just isn't worth it. And inking players to bad contracts is never a good idea.

If Backstrom doesn't come over, than you make a trade to bring in someone who can fill in for another year. But you don't sign a horrible contract because you are desperate.
I don't want to throw away two more seasons. Thats a waste.

The Viking Fury is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:02 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.