Okay, you're right... Stevens was never called for roughing, kneeing, charging, or any violent penalty. I'm guessing the only ones he committed were hooking penalties?
You do know that leading with an arm/elbow, leaving the feet, etc can be charged with something OTHER than elbowing? You might want to check out the NHL rule book.
Wow, when did I ever say Stevens never got called for roughing, kneeing, charging or any violent penalty? He took a ton of roughing penalties among others.
First off, I never said that anything about elbows, intent to injure is intent to injure, and that is the point you just made for me...Stevens sees a guy coming over the blue line and he wants to hurt him...yeah....tha'ts not a bad thing *shrug*. Sports is competitive, but there is a thing called sportsmanship...the image of pro sports is going downward every year because of dirty plays, acts of stupidity and off-the court/field/hockey personal matters.
It shouldn't be ok to hit someone because they are crossing the blue line with their head down, and you want to know why....it's because of the damage it may cause, whether permanent or not...that's how you protect players, by telling them to take away the puck or tie up the guy instead of trying to take him off his skates.
I asked this question before but got no answer from anyone, in football if a DE comes in unblocked and has a clear blind hit on the QB that will rattle the guys bones to the core and has a chance to take or keep the momentum of the game, do you think he should hold up because it would be poor sportsmanship to do otherwise?
I asked this question before but got no answer from anyone, in football if a DE comes in unblocked and has a clear blind hit on the QB that will rattle the guys bones to the core and has a chance to take or keep the momentum of the game, do you think he should hold up because it would be poor sportsmanship to do otherwise?
You know hitting is a part of football too, and that's why they have the "roughing the passer/kicker" penalty...and how many times do you see them occur? Rarley...why? Because players won't head hunt the QB just because he has already thrown the ball.
But to answer your question, you can't totally compare the two, because in football there is someone trying to protect the quarterback...the objective for a defensive player in football is to tackle his opponent away from the end zone, hockey's objective isn't about finishing checks.
But tell me then, how many times have you seen a quarterback get rattled and how many careers have been ended or altered because of that? And find me one consistant player who has blindsided a quarterback over his entire career that you can compare to Scott Stevens? NONE...you won't find one as notorious for having famous hits like Stevens.
Oh, and football players where tougher equipment than hockey players and when they fall, they land on turf or grass, hockey players land on solid ice, which contributes to the head injuries....and football helmets are bigger and way more protective than hockey helmets.
Do you honestly believe that there is nothing wrong with hitting someone with there head down because it's part of the game? Well then I guess Marty McSorley should be excused for whacking Brashear in the head because he caused just as much damage as Stevens did to Shane Willis, who unlike Brashear, isn't even in the league. Maybe high sticking should be legal, because sticks are part of the game.
We both know this debate is going nowhere because you are a Devil's fan and I'm an anti-Stevens fan....so say your piece and leave mine where it is.
First off, I never said that anything about elbows, intent to injure is intent to injure, and that is the point you just made for me...Stevens sees a guy coming over the blue line and he wants to hurt him...yeah....tha'ts not a bad thing *shrug*. Sports is competitive, but there is a thing called sportsmanship...the image of pro sports is going downward every year because of dirty plays, acts of stupidity and off-the court/field/hockey personal matters.
It shouldn't be ok to hit someone because they are crossing the blue line with their head down, and you want to know why....it's because of the damage it may cause, whether permanent or not...that's how you protect players, by telling them to take away the puck or tie up the guy instead of trying to take him off his skates.
so by your logic, every player in the NHL who has ever thrown a big hit is a dirty player?
hard hitting is a part of hockey and the players that throw those hits should not be penalized because some players cant remember to follow the most beginner hockey rule...keep your head up.
and lou i too would like to hear an answer regarding hard hits in football
rich pilon on kevin stevens in '93. pilon hit him so hard that stevens was unconscious in mid air . after he flipped he did a faceplant and needed his whole face rebuilt. best hit ever. can anyone get a video of that?
so by your logic, every player in the NHL who has ever thrown a big hit is a dirty player?
hard hitting is a part of hockey and the players that throw those hits should not be penalized because some players cant remember to follow the most beginner hockey rule...keep your head up.
and lou i too would like to hear an answer regarding hard hits in football
You seem to not understand the logic behind my argument....I am not talking about big hits being dirty,I am talking about a certain player having a reputation for hitting guys with their heads down, namely key players on the other team. Just like Bryan Marchment is known for taking guys knee's out, yet he is trashed while Stevens is glorified.
When you see an athlete continously go after the best players in an attempt to injure, that is dirty because you know he wants to cripple the other teams best player in order to gain an advantage, thus resulting in poor sportsmanship.
The media and the league are trying to figure out how to protect players, especially since there have been so many head injuries in the last few years....and many of them have are direct results of someone trying to take another guys head off just to make the sportscenter highlights.
Maybe some of you need to watch the replays of Stevens and notice his hands are always high when he's trying to take someone out....not saying the elbow connected but he wasn't hitting the guys with his body, because i'm not a doctor, but i don't think you can get a concussion from being knocked out from a soft surface.
Wow, when did I ever say Stevens never got called for roughing, kneeing, charging or any violent penalty? He took a ton of roughing penalties among others.
You seem to think dirty hits are only called as elbows. I'm saying leading with an elbow, leaving your feet, or charging a player can be called under a different name than "elbowing." I've seen several knee-to-knees, hooks, holds, etc called as tripping. The same thing applies to roughing, charging, boarding, elbowing, etc. A lot of the penalty names are interchangeable, as the definition allows it along with the possibility of committing two penalties at once but only being called for one.
You know hitting is a part of football too, and that's why they have the "roughing the passer/kicker" penalty...and how many times do you see them occur? Rarley...why? Because players won't head hunt the QB just because he has already thrown the ball.
Your totally wrong, it happens ALL the time, all the time and plenty of players have taken cheapshots at the QB, but why are you comparing him to dirty hits? His hits are within the rule of the game and Stevens played to win, end of story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetown88
But to answer your question, you can't totally compare the two, because in football there is someone trying to protect the quarterback...the objective for a defensive player in football is to tackle his opponent away from the end zone, hockey's objective isn't about finishing checks.
What's the difference if the QB in my scenario has protectors or not? Because my example has the DE coming in unblocked and creaming the QB just as hard as one of Stevens hits, by your standards he is dirty and showing poor sportsmanship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetown88
But tell me then, how many times have you seen a quarterback get rattled and how many careers have been ended or altered because of that? And find me one consistant player who has blindsided a quarterback over his entire career that you can compare to Scott Stevens? NONE...you won't find one as notorious for having famous hits like Stevens.
Yeah, Lawrence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Reggie White and others hit the QB like little girls, good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetown88
Oh, and football players where tougher equipment than hockey players and when they fall, they land on turf or grass, hockey players land on solid ice, which contributes to the head injuries....and football helmets are bigger and way more protective than hockey helmets.
And in football they get crushed into the ground by men who are 300 pounds or more, in hockey they don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetown88
Do you honestly believe that there is nothing wrong with hitting someone with there head down because it's part of the game? Well then I guess Marty McSorley should be excused for whacking Brashear in the head because he caused just as much damage as Stevens did to Shane Willis, who unlike Brashear, isn't even in the league. Maybe high sticking should be legal, because sticks are part of the game.
Wow, comparing McSorley's dirty and vicious act to the way Stevens plays is insane, there is no other words to describe it.
With all due respect man, you are really reaching with these analogies that honestly don't make much sense.
And a skater who skates into the Devils zone knowing that Stevens is eyeing them up like a hawk and they still keep their head done, well, lets just say they should know better and to a man - the ones he has hit - would probably agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetown88
We both know this debate is going nowhere because you are a Devil's fan and I'm an anti-Stevens fan....so say your piece and leave mine where it is.
Difference is if Stevens was a Oiler and helped them win three cups, I would not hate the man, in fact when he played with the Blues and Caps I admired his game greatly and there is no reason to think I would still not.
But would you still be anti-Stevens if he played with the Oilers and had all that great success? I sure you would probably would still say yes, but I wouldn't believe it in a million years because I have never knew one Devils fan who hated him, not one.
You seem to think dirty hits are only called as elbows. I'm saying leading with an elbow, leaving your feet, or charging a player can be called under a different name than "elbowing." I've seen several knee-to-knees, hooks, holds, etc called as tripping. The same thing applies to roughing, charging, boarding, elbowing, etc. A lot of the penalty names are interchangeable, as the definition allows it along with the possibility of committing two penalties at once but only being called for one.
Again, when did I ever say that?
As for the rest of your post after that, sorry man, I'm not getting your point or see the significance to this discussion.
rich pilon on kevin stevens in '93. pilon hit him so hard that stevens was unconscious in mid air . after he flipped he did a faceplant and needed his whole face rebuilt. best hit ever. can anyone get a video of that?
I think this is what you are talking about http://youtube.com/watch?v=SZK6c3RLoOM(at the :28 second mark) I think it was more of a Stevens hit on Pilon but whatever...
That one would be my choice of the best all-time hit.
I remember watching that hit and was amazed that Quinn was even penalized. It was one of the few times I saw Orr with his head down. If I recall correctly his D partner Don Awrey(?) gave Orr a pass in his skates and Orr looked down for second just as Quinn was pinching in along the boards.
The next season Orr and Quinn dropped the gloves to settle up and Orr beat on Quinn like a drum.
My dad was telling me about the game, he said someone tried to stab quinn in the penalty box. The whole crowd chanted "kill quinn" for the rest of the series. I would LOVE to see a video clip of the old garden out for blood
Maybe some of you need to watch the replays of Stevens and notice his hands are always high when he's trying to take someone out....not saying the elbow connected but he wasn't hitting the guys with his body, because i'm not a doctor, but i don't think you can get a concussion from being knocked out from a soft surface.
i actually think that you need to watch the replays again because stevens' biggest hits are always him leading with his body (shoulder) into the player and not his hands or elbows. the mere fact that you state that so emphatically makes you sound extremely biased for some reason.
and obviously the player he hits isnt going to hit a soft surface for the mere fact that the shoulder is not soft, does this mean that stevens should have worn softer shoulder pads?
and why is it that you believe so severely that stevens was out to injure the best players on the other teams? simply standing them up at the blueline is certainly not evidence enough to warrant such a remark. did you know him personally?
anyone will tell you that no matter what level you play in for hockey the best player on your team is always targeted by the other teams best defenders so that those defenders can get in the heads of the best player and get him off his game. whenever stevens stood up a player coming across the blueline with their head down (which any player who plays against stevens should have known better) they get hit cleanly. after getting up stevens is officially in that players head for the rest of the game and therefore that players game is now off. if i'm not mistaken that is the whole point to defending the best players on the other team.
Then watch the video again. Every hit the forearm/elbow leads and almost everyone of them is a blow to the head. In CIS (and maybe other leagues) this is 5 and a game.
i actually think that you need to watch the replays again because stevens' biggest hits are always him leading with his body (shoulder) into the player and not his hands or elbows. the mere fact that you state that so emphatically makes you sound extremely biased for some reason.
Look again. A lot of the big hits (can't comment on small ones, haven't seen many) have Stevens leaving his feet and/or extending his arm along with skating all the way up to the hit. Those are penalties. But go ahead and believe that he has won the Lady Bing every year in his career.
But tell me then, how many times have you seen a quarterback get rattled and how many careers have been ended or altered because of that? And find me one consistant player who has blindsided a quarterback over his entire career that you can compare to Scott Stevens? NONE...you won't find one as notorious for having famous hits like Stevens.
For his assault on Raiders' teammate, Marcus Williams where he ripped off his helmet and punched him in the face, a civil jury awarded Williams $340,000.
Hatcher on Roenick. I still think it was legal. You could actually see his broken face. I've never seen teeth point in so many different directions in my life. HAHAHA!
By effectivity? Probably Stevens in the playoffs. If i recall correctly,Devils tended to win series when he absolutely destroyed someone with a hit.....
