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Cloutier...gone for longer than we thought?

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Old
01-10-2007, 03:02 PM
  #26
kingsfan25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
Why is that.....when Cloutier was healthy he was always getting the starts. Even when Garon was obviously playing better.
To listen to most here, you'd think that Cloutier could do anything and Crow would still play him...in actuality, MC has shown a willingness to give Garon starts when it's clear Cloutier is really struggling. He even played Brust over him on one occasion.

In addition, I cna't necessarily say that I blame Crow for playing Cloutier more...though I don't think he's the better goalie, he is the one getting paid the most. I'm sure the coaching staff felt pressured to try and get him going so that the contract he was awarded wouldn't look absolutely ridiculous as well as so that this team has, at least, an average starting goalie for the next 3 years.

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01-10-2007, 03:07 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by kingsfan25 View Post
To listen to most here, you'd think that Cloutier could do anything and Crow would still play him...in actuality, MC has shown a willingness to give Garon starts when it's clear Cloutier is really struggling. He even played Brust over him on one occasion.

In addition, I cna't necessarily say that I blame Crow for playing Cloutier more...though I don't think he's the better goalie, he is the one getting paid the most. I'm sure the coaching staff felt pressured to try and get him going so that the contract he was awarded wouldn't look absolutely ridiculous as well as so that this team has, at least, an average starting goalie for the next 3 years.
The thing is if Crawford had not convinced Lombardi that Cloutier was alot better than he really was he would not have gotten a contract extension before he even played a game. Thus there would not be this urgency to play him even when he is playing subpar hockey. So playing the worse of the 2 goalies just because he makes more just compounds the problem.

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01-10-2007, 03:12 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
The thing is if Crawford had not convinced Lombardi that Cloutier was alot better than he really was he would not have gotten a contract extension before he even played a game. Thus there would not be this urgency to play him even when he is playing subpar hockey. So playing the worse of the 2 goalies just because he makes more just compounds the problem.
I'm not excusing the extension...and I have stated before that Crow must've had a lot to do with the whole deal but the situation does exist...the fact that Clout is going to be here for a while would prompt the management and coaching to try to get him going through extensive play.

With that being said, I still would rather have had Garon play more.

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01-10-2007, 03:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by kingsfan25 View Post
I'm not excusing the extension...and I have stated before that Crow must've had a lot to do with the whole deal but the situation does exist...the fact that Clout is going to be here for a while would prompt the management and coaching to try to get him going through extensive play.

With that being said, I still would rather have had Garon play more.
That is my point though......I think that since Crawford had a big say in the extension that he didn't want to be proved a fool.....So he decided he was going to play Cloutier come Hell or high water. Because to do otherwise would be like saying management made a mistake in signing Dan to an extension before the actually saw what he was capable of. So Crawford's favoritism in Cloutier is not being overemphasized. He is trying to save face for making a very bad recommendation to Lombardi.

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01-10-2007, 03:52 PM
  #30
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According to a poster on LGK, Blake mentioned in a radio interview that Cloutier will probably be out for the rest of the season.

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01-10-2007, 04:53 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
That is my point though......I think that since Crawford had a big say in the extension that he didn't want to be proved a fool.....So he decided he was going to play Cloutier come Hell or high water. Because to do otherwise would be like saying management made a mistake in signing Dan to an extension before the actually saw what he was capable of. So Crawford's favoritism in Cloutier is not being overemphasized. He is trying to save face for making a very bad recommendation to Lombardi.
My point is that, after some initial favouritism, and after it became clear that Cloutier really wasn't playing his way through anything, Crow did show a willingness to go with the other netminder.

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01-10-2007, 07:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Unfortunately, you've already seen how he's capable of playing in the second half of the season. We saw the same thing in Manchester during the lockout season: in the first half of the season, he was strong and capable; during the last half of the season, he ran out of gas and was incapable of carrying the team to victory. He has yet to demonstrate that he can perform at a high level for the duration, that he's capable of being the goto goalie towards the end of the season. He may never be more than an extremely capable #2.
Tad, this quote in bold was written re: Garon, but could be applied alomst word for word to Jamie Storr. There are differences between the 2, sure. We waited *longer* for Jamie Storr and that perhaps heightened the dissappointment. Garon has week-long flashes of skill, but I'm starting to feel like he [Garon] may never be the solid #1 goaltender we'd all like him to be, myself included in that group.

Perhaps the Canadiens knew his high-end potential and we're all being homers and holding out hope for too long.


Apologies for the "Garon = Storr" hijack, but the "Crawford loves Cloutier" chatter is just saturated at this point.

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01-10-2007, 07:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by kingsfan25 View Post
My point is that, after some initial favouritism, and after it became clear that Cloutier really wasn't playing his way through anything, Crow did show a willingness to go with the other netminder.
You're right, but I don't think that it's worth arguing over. People are really frustrated and a little exaggeration is natural.

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01-10-2007, 07:29 PM
  #34
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Getting back to the point of this thread, if Cloutier is done for the season, this is, obviously, good news for Garon. His future with the Kings might have gained some new life...it looks like these last 38 games could be his audition to prove to DL that he can step up and be "the guy"-the fact that Garon has yet to do that has been, of course, DL's main concern.

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01-10-2007, 08:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by multiball View Post
Tad, this quote in bold was written re: Garon, but could be applied alomst word for word to Jamie Storr. There are differences between the 2, sure. We waited *longer* for Jamie Storr and that perhaps heightened the dissappointment. Garon has week-long flashes of skill, but I'm starting to feel like he [Garon] may never be the solid #1 goaltender we'd all like him to be, myself included in that group.
Multiball, I must say that your Garon/Storr comparison turns my stomach a little , but, perhaps, Storr might've become a better goalie if the Kings weren't so horrible all those years. For all intents and purposes, his career was born and killed with the Kings. Who knows if he'd still be in the league if he had been developed in a better environment. It's possible that the Kings contributed to the stagnation of his development, rather than it stagnating all on its own, as is the usual assumption.

Also, Storr had a lot of pressure to live up to being taken with a #7 overall pick. Garon has pretty much no such pressure. No one is "waiting for" or expecting him to be a #1. We're hopeful that that happens, but we're not staking anything on it like the future of the franchise was staked on Storr. A large part of the frustration with Storr is that the organization passed up opportunities to solidify goaltending because they had faith in Storr. Garon isn't really in the way of anything. They'd get rid of him in a heartbeat if a better option were available.

Finally, I never had the same liking for, confidence in or optimism in Storr that I have with Garon. Maybe it's partly personality (Storr had a small arrogance and fragile self-confidence), but I'm sure that it's partly skill-wise. Garon's great flexibility strikes me as something rare in goaltenders. When you have a rare gift like that, there's no limit to your potential. It's probably that that gives me the most optimism for his future. It'll likely be with another team, but I can see that skill taking him far. His major fault, his conditioning, is a relatively minor thing, since that can be corrected, especially since he's still under 30.


Last edited by Osprey: 01-10-2007 at 09:09 PM.
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01-10-2007, 08:09 PM
  #36
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If Cloutier has hip surgery, I'm going to venture to say that he won't play more than 10 games in the NHL again.

Anybody know of the track record for goalies that have had hip surgery?

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01-10-2007, 08:14 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
If Cloutier has hip surgery, I'm going to venture to say that he won't play more than 10 games in the NHL again.

Anybody know of the track record for goalies that have had hip surgery?
Arrange these letters to make an acronym beneficial to the Kings: I L T

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01-10-2007, 08:20 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Anybody know of the track record for goalies that have had hip surgery?
Well, doing a quick search, I see that Turco had hip surgery in 2004 and Patrick Roy had it in 1999. So, apparently, goalies can come back from it pretty much as good as they were before. Of course, though, that's with good goalies. There's no telling whether a mediocre goalie who hasn't played more than 30 games in 3 years, and has major head issues, could do the same.

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01-10-2007, 08:31 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
Multiball, I must say that your Garon/Storr comparison turns my stomach a little , but, perhaps, Storr might've become a better goalie if the Kings weren't so horrible all those years. For all intents and purposes, his career was born and killed with the Kings. Who knows if he'd still be in the league if he had been developed in a better environment. It's possible that the Kings contributed to the stagnation of his development, rather than it stagnating all on its own, as is the usual assumption.

Also, Storr had a lot of pressure to live up to being taken with a #3 overall pick. Garon has pretty much no such pressure. No one is "waiting for" or expecting him to be a #1. We're hopeful that that happens, but we're not staking anything on it like the future of the franchise was staked on Storr. A large part of the frustration with Storr is that the organization passed up opportunities to solidify goaltending because they had faith in Storr. Garon isn't really in the way of anything. They'd get rid of him in a heartbeat if a better option were available.

Finally, I never had the same liking for, confidence in or optimism in Storr that I have with Garon. Maybe it's partly personality (Storr had a small arrogance and fragile self-confidence), but I'm sure that it's partly skill-wise. Garon's great flexibility strikes me as something rare in goaltenders. When you have a rare gift like that, there's no limit to your potential. It's probably that that gives me the most optimism for his future. It'll likely be with another team, but I can see that skill taking him far. His major fault, his conditioning, is a relatively minor thing, since that can be corrected, especially since he's still under 30.
All true. Well said. Mine was a rather large generalization based on the seemingly-never-ending hope that Garon / Storr "would step up", when time and again (and again and again and again in Storr's case) he never did. I actually hope I'm wrong on this one, because I do prefer Garon's flexability and skill to the cro(a)p of available goaltenders this offseason, but I'm also tired of the "just give him a chance, he'll do it" fanboys.

I guess the whole point of my ramblings is "step up NOW Mattheiu, or we will move on without you". Between what he's previously shown, and what ReggieMoto relays about his time in Manchester, I have serious doubts that he can do it. I was a proponent of having Garon in a tandem, b/c I've grown to believe that he does not have what it takes to be a solid #1 starter in the NHL.



Also, I have to admit that I became pretty excited when imagining Cloutier on the "Lou Lamoriello Memorial LTI list"!


Last edited by multiball: 01-11-2007 at 11:16 AM.
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01-10-2007, 08:41 PM
  #40
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-Storr was 7th overall not 3rd.

-Belanger played his first game on the topline when Stumpel was holding out. I think it was vs WASH and he had a couple points.

-Crawford not playing Kopitar and Frolov together really makes me question those who give him credit for developing players like Forsberg, Bertuzzi, Naslund and others.

-Crawford WAS in favour of Cloutier and often played him when most coaches would have gone with the hotter goaltender early in the season.

-IMO Garon is not worse than goaltenders like Roloson, Biron, Fleury and many others. Heck the guy had 30+ wins on a non playoff team. I would like to see his GAA and SV% broken down in the first half of last yr and the 2nd half. He and guys like Frolov and Conroy took alot of heat for the Kings missing the playoffs, but really the Demitra injury cost us the most. He was the one who made our number one line click.

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01-10-2007, 08:41 PM
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"I was in the mall shopping for my shoes and [Manchester] Coach [Mark] Morris called and said I was called up and they were trying to get me on an airplane," he said. "I didn't get the shoes."
I laughed...

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01-10-2007, 09:21 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by nK View Post
-Belanger played his first game on the topline when Stumpel was holding out. I think it was vs WASH and he had a couple points.
Was that because AM thought that that was best for his development or because that's where the hole was and he didn't want to mess with the lines more than was necessary? As you can see, the motive is still debatable. No one from the top line was holding out or injured to justify Pushkarev playing there.

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01-10-2007, 09:25 PM
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I think that playing the young guys on the top 2 lines is best for their development.....At least at this point when the season is all but lost. Earlier in the year when O'Sullivan was here the Kings still had playoff hopes. Since that is no longer the case I am reasonably sure that O'Sullivan would see significant time on the top lines if and when he gets called up.

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01-10-2007, 09:33 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
Was that because AM thought that that was best for his development or because that's where the hole was and he didn't want to mess with the lines more than was necessary? As you can see, the motive is still debatable. No one from the top line was holding out or injured to justify Pushkarev playing there.
True, but why has he not put Frolov and Kopitar together consistently? In Vancouver he always played Bertuzzi-Morrisson-Naslund even when they were the only ones scoring. In LA he seems afraid of putting all the eggs in one basket.

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01-10-2007, 10:19 PM
  #45
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True, but why has he not put Frolov and Kopitar together consistently? In Vancouver he always played Bertuzzi-Morrisson-Naslund even when they were the only ones scoring. In LA he seems afraid of putting all the eggs in one basket.
Maybe he believes that each will develop a little better if they're apart, or, more probable, he may feel that the development of Brown and Cammalleri (and now Pushkarev) is just as important, if not more important, than any extra development of Kopitar and Frolov that might be achieved by playing them together. Kopitar and Frolov are assured of being stars, but Brown and Cammalleri need help to get even close to that level, so there's probably less to be gained by pairing the stars together than by splitting them up to help the others more. I don't know; that's the best guess that I have.

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01-10-2007, 10:38 PM
  #46
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This isn't an emregency.
The goalie situation in LA has always been an emergency.

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01-11-2007, 12:36 AM
  #47
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Like Osprey i too feel that Garon still has a lot of potential. We've all seen it last year, and if he can work on his conditioning (argubly the easiest thing to work on in sports) and can hold his game together he would be a great tender.

keep him, lose IR clouts.

BTW, sorry momma. But im not afraid to say im happy to see clouts off the roster for a couple months

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01-11-2007, 02:38 AM
  #48
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The goalie situation in LA has always been an emergency.

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01-11-2007, 02:57 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by multiball View Post
Tad, this quote in bold was written re: Garon, but could be applied alomst word for word to Jamie Storr. There are differences between the 2, sure. We waited *longer* for Jamie Storr and that perhaps heightened the dissappointment. Garon has week-long flashes of skill, but I'm starting to feel like he [Garon] may never be the solid #1 goaltender we'd all like him to be, myself included in that group.

Perhaps the Canadiens knew his high-end potential and we're all being homers and holding out hope for too long.


Apologies for the "Garon = Storr" hijack, but the "Crawford loves Cloutier" chatter is just saturated at this point.

I can see your point. I just vividly remember watching Storr fall over or start to attack invisible demons or do some other incredibly stupid action.

Even when Garon is cold he just never looks as horrible as Storr did. But I can see how at the end of the day it is the effectiveness that is the most important aspect of goal tending not aesthetics.

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01-11-2007, 05:35 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
The goalie situation in LA has always been an emergency.
They had Huet

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