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Sidney Crosby's Point Pace

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Old
01-11-2007, 06:53 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
I stopped reading right there.
If you start your point by saying Crosby played with Mario, it's not worth discussing.
It wasn't Mario, it was a shadow of Mario that played 20 games on one leg.
Giving Crosby any sort of advantage because he played with Mario (and BTW, NOT one the same line, as Sid started on the second line) is simply ludicrous.
Doesn't it make you laugh, some of the things people say to try and make Crosby not look as good as he is? I love it.

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01-11-2007, 09:14 AM
  #102
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Some people in this thread are reading it wrong. I'm not asking about breaking the all time points record or putting up 215 points in a season.

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01-11-2007, 09:59 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
You realize the ridicule of this point?

That Kurri was an "average second liner" scoring 75 points exactly tells you how Gretzky's points (160+) were much less impressive than 160 points now.

Nowadays first line forwards (and good ones) get 75 points.
And good first liners get 12 points in 9 playoff games.
There are a few points I'd like to address here; it's my fault for not clarifying what I meant earlier.

1. Gretzky wasn't great because he scored 2,857 career points or had 200 point seasons. I'd go as far as saying that those numbers are irrelevant. What does matter is Gretzky's margin of victory. Yes, the 80's were high scoring. However, Gretzky blew away the competition every year.

1981: Gretzky 164, Dionne (Hall of Famer) 135
1982: Gretzky 212, Bossy (HOFer) 147
1983: Gretzky 196, Stastny (HOFer) 124
1984: Gretzky 205, Coffey (HOFer) 126
1985: Gretzky 208, Kurri (HOFer) 135
1986: Gretzky 215, Lemieux (HOFer) 141
1987: Gretzky 183, Kurri (HOFer) 108

So, during Gretzky's prime, he was the leading scorer by an average of 67 points, or 50% per year! Gretzky's point totals are inflated by his era. What wasn't inflated, though, is his strongest claim to stardom: the fact that he routinely outscored the next best player in the league (always a HOFer) by 50% per year.

2. Even if Gretzky's stats are somewhat inflated by era, if you adjust them (like Pnep does, or like what you see in the book "Total Hockey"), Gretzky still holds almost every single-season and career record. Even if you take 30% off his career total (which is way too much...), he still finishes with 2,198 points, which still ranks him as the highest scorer of all time by a wide margin.

3. I meant that in his first couple of years, Kurri had the level of talent commensurate with a typical second line player. On an average team, a young Kurri would probably get 25 goals and 50 points. I admit this is a subjective opinion, but I think most people who saw a young Kurri would agree. The reason Kurri got 75 points is because he had the benefit of playing with Gretzky, who, from his first year in the NHL, was already the best player in the league. Kurri's high totals (in early years--I'm not taking anything away from him in his prime) are a testament to Gretzky's outstanding playmaking ability.

4. In 1981, Kurri scored 75 points. That put him tied for 35th in the league. In 2006, a player with 75 points would be tied for 39th in the league. Not a huge difference.

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01-11-2007, 10:39 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
I stopped reading right there.
If you start your point by saying Crosby played with Mario, it's not worth discussing.
It wasn't Mario, it was a shadow of Mario that played 20 games on one leg.
Giving Crosby any sort of advantage because he played with Mario (and BTW, NOT one the same line, as Sid started on the second line) is simply ludicrous.
Who is better washed up injured Mario on one leg or Blair McDonald and Stan Weir? I'll take Washed up Mario. Still only 20 games.

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01-11-2007, 10:41 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Evilo View Post
Nope, you're making out to be like your opinion is everyone's opinion.
I personally think very highly of Jaromir Jagr, Dom Hasek and others.
Just because they're not good ole' canadians or even north americans and don't have their mentality doesn't mean they're villains.
Jagr has always been a great effort guy, conrtary to popular HF urban legend, and he played through injuries for most of his career.
He's simply a living hockey legend.
Hasek was also an incredible guy.

Would you say Roy is loved by everyone? That's certainly not the case.
Lemieux neither, and he's a legend.

You aren't even reading what I wrote. Put your bias in the closet and actually read what I wrote.

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01-11-2007, 10:56 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
Who is better washed up injured Mario on one leg or Blair McDonald and Stan Weir? I'll take Washed up Mario. Still only 20 games.
So it doesn't actually matter how good of hockey they play, it is just the name that is important?

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01-11-2007, 10:57 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Forever27 View Post
It's also worth pointing out that he has almost as many points outside of the division as within now. 30 vs 35.
Mainly because he just about used up his allotment of servings from the points buffet that is the Philadelphia Flyers.

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01-11-2007, 11:00 AM
  #108
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"What if he played as long as Howe?" If he played until he was fifty, he would hold every scoring title when he was done. There are so many things that could happen to affect his future that it is too hard to accurately predict what will happen.
By that same token, what if anyone played until they were 50?


Also, right now Crosby is on the best PPG, but he's not running away with the scoring race....in fact, all it'd take to catch him would be going 2 /3 games with no or one point and one of the guys right behind him having 6-8 points over the same time. Now, thats pretty unlikely this week seeing as the Pens play Philly next, but who knows what happens next week, right?Theres no guarantee that someone else doesn't start averinging more PPG for the rest of the season and overtake him....Speaking of overtaking.... probably this time(or a month prior?) last season I doubt many people would have thought Cheechoo wins the Richard, and look how that turned out...

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01-11-2007, 11:08 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by IcedTea View Post
So it doesn't actually matter how good of hockey they play, it is just the name that is important?
Yes the fan love produces the points.

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01-11-2007, 11:14 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by octopi View Post
By that same token, what if anyone played until they were 50?


Also, right now Crosby is on the best PPG, but he's not running away with the scoring race....in fact, all it'd take to catch him would be going 2 /3 games with no or one point and one of the guys right behind him having 6-8 points over the same time. Now, thats pretty unlikely this week seeing as the Pens play Philly next, but who knows what happens next week, right?Theres no guarantee that someone else doesn't start averinging more PPG for the rest of the season and overtake him....Speaking of overtaking.... probably this time(or a month prior?) last season I doubt many people would have thought Cheechoo wins the Richard, and look how that turned out...
Crosby's lead came as a result of his 10pts in two games a few weeks ago. In 11 games since he has 5g 9a for 14pts. In the same 11 game stretch Ovechkin has 6g 10a for 16pts. You would hardly notice Ovechkin's 5 games stretch without a goal within those 11 games.

I think the scoring race, like the playoff race, will go on for a while.

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01-11-2007, 11:31 AM
  #111
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he's not going to be scoring 200+ pt seasons. goaltending has advanced too much, and defenses are too good. scoring in the 80s was 8+ goals a game, whereas now it's under 6. i think crosby can join that elite group if he's putting up 160+ pt seasons and the rest of the league is at about 120 and below.

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01-11-2007, 11:35 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
There are a few points I'd like to address here; it's my fault for not clarifying what I meant earlier.

1. Gretzky wasn't great because he scored 2,857 career points or had 200 point seasons. I'd go as far as saying that those numbers are irrelevant. What does matter is Gretzky's margin of victory. Yes, the 80's were high scoring. However, Gretzky blew away the competition every year.

1981: Gretzky 164, Dionne (Hall of Famer) 135
1982: Gretzky 212, Bossy (HOFer) 147
1983: Gretzky 196, Stastny (HOFer) 124
1984: Gretzky 205, Coffey (HOFer) 126
1985: Gretzky 208, Kurri (HOFer) 135
1986: Gretzky 215, Lemieux (HOFer) 141
1987: Gretzky 183, Kurri (HOFer) 108

So, during Gretzky's prime, he was the leading scorer by an average of 67 points, or 50% per year! Gretzky's point totals are inflated by his era. What wasn't inflated, though, is his strongest claim to stardom: the fact that he routinely outscored the next best player in the league (always a HOFer) by 50% per year.

2. Even if Gretzky's stats are somewhat inflated by era, if you adjust them (like Pnep does, or like what you see in the book "Total Hockey"), Gretzky still holds almost every single-season and career record. Even if you take 30% off his career total (which is way too much...), he still finishes with 2,198 points, which still ranks him as the highest scorer of all time by a wide margin.

3. I meant that in his first couple of years, Kurri had the level of talent commensurate with a typical second line player. On an average team, a young Kurri would probably get 25 goals and 50 points. I admit this is a subjective opinion, but I think most people who saw a young Kurri would agree. The reason Kurri got 75 points is because he had the benefit of playing with Gretzky, who, from his first year in the NHL, was already the best player in the league. Kurri's high totals (in early years--I'm not taking anything away from him in his prime) are a testament to Gretzky's outstanding playmaking ability.

4. In 1981, Kurri scored 75 points. That put him tied for 35th in the league. In 2006, a player with 75 points would be tied for 39th in the league. Not a huge difference.

GREAT information right there. I am in full agreement. Gretzky's numbers maybe inflated- but the fact that the NHL felt like a beer league to him is incredible.


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Old
01-11-2007, 11:40 AM
  #113
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He doesn't stand a chance, to beat any of the Great Ones point totals. Gretzky played in the right era, and he played with some of the greatest players active during the eighties. I think the cap factor, and the pressure, will take it's toll.

He could very well score 2000 points though, thats a definite possibility.

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01-11-2007, 12:12 PM
  #114
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I can't see Crosby passing 215 pts when you have entire teams that have under 200 goals a season. However I see him winning 8 of the next 10 Art Ross trophies and getting 50G and 110A in his prime.

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01-11-2007, 01:07 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
he's not going to be scoring 200+ pt seasons. goaltending has advanced too much, and defenses are too good. scoring in the 80s was 8+ goals a game, whereas now it's under 6. i think crosby can join that elite group if he's putting up 160+ pt seasons and the rest of the league is at about 120 and below.

Do you really think that Crosby is going to outscore Ovechkin by 40pts sometime in the future when they both play most of a season? I don't see that happening.

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01-11-2007, 01:17 PM
  #116
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Do you really think that Crosby is going to outscore Ovechkin by 40pts sometime in the future when they both play most of a season? I don't see that happening.
Easily. Imo. Sid will have over 200 pts in bank at the time Ovechkin entered the NHL(20 yds old). In 2-3 years the difference between the 2 will become increasingly big.

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01-11-2007, 01:26 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Crazyhorse View Post
He doesn't stand a chance, to beat any of the Great Ones point totals. Gretzky played in the right era, and he played with some of the greatest players active during the eighties. I think the cap factor, and the pressure, will take it's toll.

He could very well score 2000 points though, thats a definite possibility.
Yeah, 10Opts average for 20 year seems pretty likely....

In fact considering his age and current productivity, 2500 not out of question.

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01-11-2007, 01:34 PM
  #118
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Easily. Imo. Sid will have over 200 pts in bank at the time Ovechkin entered the NHL(20 yds old). In 2-3 years the difference between the 2 will become increasingly big.
Dude thats pure B.S.

Crosby wont get over 140 points... He is so overhyped it isnt even funny... The NHL is advanced...It isnt the golden days anymore.. Goalies are better Defence is better..The game is more stratigeic that it ever was .... he will never get 200 points let alone he wont get more than 140 points

Crosby and Ovechkin will be stride for stride...

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01-11-2007, 03:17 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Wolv3rinE View Post
he will never get 200 points let alone he wont get more than 140 points

Crosby and Ovechkin will be stride for stride...
i think he'll definitely be able to score over 140 points in a season.

the NHL is changing fast, despite the science of goaltending and defense now, the bigwigs in the NHL are seeing to it that scoring will increase in spite of the defensive tactics.

the best case scenario for the NHL as a business is to do whatever is possible to make Gretzky's records within reach. Bettman and friends KNOW this. they don't care about changing the rules. look at the MLB home run race and all the publicity it had. the NHL would LOVE that type of spotlight, and Rule Changes controversy is alot better than Cheating controversy.

Bettman knows that if crosby or someone else could put a couple of gretzky's records in their sights, the NHL would possibly be able to regain the popularity it lost in the US.

i totally agree that along with crosby there will be several other guys hot on his heels though.

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01-11-2007, 03:20 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by 559 View Post
i think he'll definitely be able to score over 140 points in a season.

the NHL is changing fast, despite the science of goaltending and defense now, the bigwigs in the NHL are seeing to it that scoring will increase in spite of the defensive tactics.

the best case scenario for the NHL as a business is to do whatever is possible to make Gretzky's records within reach. Bettman and friends KNOW this. they don't care about changing the rules. look at the MLB home run race and all the publicity it had. the NHL would LOVE that type of spotlight, and Rule Changes controversy is alot better than Cheating controversy.

Bettman knows that if crosby or someone else could put a couple of gretzky's records in their sights, the NHL would possibly be able to regain the popularity it lost in the US.

i totally agree that along with crosby there will be several other guys hot on his heels though.

I agree with all the points you have presented... im not saying him reaching the 200 point mark is impossible but IMHO i dont see that mark being approached in the modern NHL.. But somebody probaly will and they will surprise the hell out of me too.. i will eat my words lol

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01-11-2007, 03:26 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Wolv3rinE View Post
Dude thats pure B.S.

Crosby wont get over 140 points... He is so overhyped it isnt even funny... The NHL is advanced...It isnt the golden days anymore.. Goalies are better Defence is better..The game is more stratigeic that it ever was .... he will never get 200 points let alone he wont get more than 140 points

Crosby and Ovechkin will be stride for stride...
I actually agree, unless Crosby gets traded to a better team, or the Pens get some better players. Right now it's a one man team.

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01-11-2007, 03:37 PM
  #122
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I actually agree, unless Crosby gets traded to a better team, or the Pens get some better players. Right now it's a one man team.
Yeah, and the Caps are Team Offensive Firepower....


Altho, Crosby does have Malkin,Recchi and Gonchiar and AO does have Semin,Zubrus , Clark.... neither is on a one man team.....

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01-11-2007, 07:02 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Wolv3rinE View Post
Dude thats pure B.S.

Crosby wont get over 140 points... He is so overhyped it isnt even funny... The NHL is advanced...It isnt the golden days anymore.. Goalies are better Defence is better..The game is more stratigeic that it ever was .... he will never get 200 points let alone he wont get more than 140 points

Crosby and Ovechkin will be stride for stride...
Crosby is nearly on pace for 140 points as a 19 year old on a bad team. He'll only get better here on, so 140 points is not only a possibility but a probability.

Crosby has currently a 1.67 ppg and Ovechkin has a 1.37 ppg...that's not really neck and neck.
That's like saying Ovechkin (59 points in 43 games) is currently neck and neck with Ray Whitney (48 points in 45 games) or Joe Sakic (45 points in 42 games), both of whom have 1.07 ppg averages.

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01-11-2007, 07:06 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by octopi View Post
Yeah, and the Caps are Team Offensive Firepower....


Altho, Crosby does have Malkin,Recchi and Gonchiar and AO does have Semin,Zubrus , Clark.... neither is on a one man team.....
Gonchar is inconsistent, Recchi is an old POS, and Malkin is also inconsistent. Zubrus has been around a while, Clark has to. Semin, well I've defiantly heard his name more than once this season.

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01-11-2007, 07:11 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Crosby87. View Post
Gonchar is inconsistent, Recchi is an old POS, and Malkin is also inconsistent. Zubrus has been around a while, Clark has to. Semin, well I've defiantly heard his name more than once this season.
In all honesty, I'd say Crosby and Ovechkin's teams are pretty comparable. Both have a few good players, a few role players, a young defence, and both have good goalies. Although I would LOVE to see Semin with Crosby. It would also be pretty cool to see Ovechkin with Malkin, even if Malkin is pretty inconsistent.

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