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Old
01-12-2007, 12:59 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jiggs McDonald View Post
Agreed 100%. I've never liked Avery. He should never of been allowed to ever wear a Kings jersey again after the Mark Hardy fiasco late last season. Tell your coach to pretty much FUC* OFF and then get a contract extension. W T F? That incident alone should of showed DL and staff his true character.
Also agreed a 100% Avery is a sick disrespectful f..k and, if he had Theo Fleury's talent, I could tolerate that, but he does not. His place is in the minors.

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01-12-2007, 01:06 PM
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Also agreed a 100% Avery is a sick disrespectful f..k and, if he had Theo Fleury's talent, I could tolerate that, but he does not. His place is in the minors.




WOW!

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01-12-2007, 01:13 PM
  #28
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If you watch the game again half of his minors were BS anyways not to mention four other pylons were watching him skate his brains out to try and make plays. He needs to play aggressive to be effective and if he takes minors from time to time so be it. It's part of the game. Every time Avery takes a minor it's disected and magnified.
Both his minors last night were dissected and magnified in slow-mo on the telecast. It's hard to argue a call when his stick is waving high in the air, whether or not he was off balance. It's even harder to argue a slashing call when you break the opponent's stick in half with a chop (albeit he was tripped at the same time).

Even if the calls are BS, that's part of Sean's problem. He's built up an image with the officials that he's always doing something illegal. Thus he gets called all the time. You can blame the officials all you want, but that won't change the results on the ice. His image makes him a liability every time he steps on the ice.

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01-12-2007, 01:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by lumberg View Post
His image makes him a liability every time he steps on the ice.
I'd put "image" about third or fourth on the list of why Sean Avery is a liability "EVERY TIME HE STEPS ON THE ICE."

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01-12-2007, 01:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by lumberg View Post
Both his minors last night were dissected and magnified in slow-mo on the telecast. It's hard to argue a call when his stick is waving high in the air, whether or not he was off balance. It's even harder to argue a slashing call when you break the opponent's stick in half with a chop (albeit he was tripped at the same time).

Even if the calls are BS, that's part of Sean's problem. He's built up an image with the officials that he's always doing something illegal. Thus he gets called all the time. You can blame the officials all you want, but that won't change the results on the ice. His image makes him a liability every time he steps on the ice.
And wouldn't you say that the Kings have bottled that up this year. Fact of the matter is that he's used above his means. He logs way too much ice team on a very thin team. I could care less what happens to him but he deserves some credit for making necessary changes to his game and his persona.
I understand the rep he has with refs and that it won't go away but he hustles out there and i'd rather a player get a penalty for working tirelessly than a player that doesn't want to work. I see so many floaters out there that are completely useless and never take penalties because they don't want to battle. Miller comes to mind every night and there are plenty of others.

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01-12-2007, 01:30 PM
  #31
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I see so many floaters out there that are completely useless and never take penalties because they don't want to battle. Miller comes to mind every night and there are plenty of others.

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01-12-2007, 01:42 PM
  #32
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Hustling and working tirelessly are only an asset if they help the team.

Taking a penalty because you are hustling and working tirelessly on the 29th ranked PK team playing against the #1 rank power play team isn't helping the team.

Knowing that you're going to get called for marginal "reputation" penalties and STILL not being careful while you're on the ice isn't helping the team.

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01-12-2007, 01:59 PM
  #33
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Hustling and working tirelessly are only an asset if they help the team.

Taking a penalty because you are hustling and working tirelessly on the 29th ranked PK team playing against the #1 rank power play team isn't helping the team.

Knowing that you're going to get called for marginal "reputation" penalties and STILL not being careful while you're on the ice isn't helping the team.

So I guess we're well on our way to creating the Ice Capades for all the pansies. It's a rough sport and **** happens. SJ went 1 for 3 on the PP. They'll be first tomorrow and the next day and we'll still be 29th going on 30th. What's your point. Maybe Avery can squeeze his stick tight enough until it evaporates. That way every hater out there will be satisfied with the dull robotic play that is the Los Angeles Kings.
We have a few bright shining lights out there and Avery is the least of their problems. If you think losing 5-2 and SJ scoring on one PP was the turning point. Well, I don't know what to say.

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01-12-2007, 02:14 PM
  #34
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Stupid penalties last night...he's been taking less this year.

Creates a lot of chances...hasn't capitalized on many, but his teammates haven't taken advantage of the chances he's created, either.

Playing in the top six...better suited to the third line.

You put Avery on alot of other teams and I'd say he's still an effective player.

There are still a lot of players I'd chuck before Avery.

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01-12-2007, 02:26 PM
  #35
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I wouldn't trade Avery yet. He plays his butt off, which is more than can be said for 90% of the rest of the team. He has that troublesome reputation, which really is a problem, but he is losing it slowly. He's getting the benefit of the doubt this year on more calls compared to last year. It will take a while until he's viewed as a 'normal' player, but personally I think it will be worth it. You cant argue that the guy has some offensive skills and a great work ethic.

Fans are always going to get on players that are mis-used. Armstrong is a perfect example. The guy is playing wonderful yet he gets a ton of flak from people. I cringe when I see him on the power-play too, but the guy is a d@mn good hockey player. If we can get a solid top two lines and he and Avery were being used on the 3rd line like they should be, this team would be in great shape.

And regarding Avery, he has rubbed many people the wrong way, and many will never like him no matter what he does. Even people who claim to "call it like they see it" won't say good things about him or admit when he is playing well. I am ambivalent towards the guy. He takes dumb penalties and shows poor judgement at times, and puts the team at a disadvantage and costs them goals. I also know he has some skill and puts forth tremendous effort. He also has drawn far more penalties this year than he has taken dumb ones - that's not even debatable - and this has led to goals from our somewhat adept powerplay. He has also worked to clean up his image, which I never thought I would see him do. People always have the right to their opinions, and for those of us who have been around this team for so long, the realism is a refreshing change - but to call Avery a liability every time he steps on the ice is way off the mark, IMO.

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01-12-2007, 02:34 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
...but to call Avery a liability every time he steps on the ice is way off the mark, IMO.
Well, I don't know about "way"... fact is, I admit he's now an NHL player... something the Kings seemed to herald long before it ever became official. After riding the Grand Rapids shuttle, and never quite becoming a regular on Detroit, Sean Avery arrived here in LA, and by the beginning of the following season was already on a Kings promo DVD as a 3rd line winger... despite the fact that he hadn't earned his stripes in the NHL. OK, so he makes the team and becomes a fan favorite, despite his limitations. He pisses off the opposition, which is great, but he pisses off his teammates, his coaches, the media, the league's officials, both on and off ice, and comes off as a spoiled child. Now, he's had physical and verbal altercations with people he should never have interfered with, and is put on double secret probation, after which he not only makes the team, but somehow inexplicably gets power play minutes up the wazoo, and spends most of his time padding his stats with one of the league worst shooting percentages possible. He still yaps at the refs, and every time he's on the ice the whistle gets a little tighter around the necks of all these guys. By liability, I may not ALWAYS mean that he's doing the wrong thing on the ice, but he's certainly subject to scrutiny that NO OTHER KING is subject to.

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01-12-2007, 02:37 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by lakings41 View Post
So I guess we're well on our way to creating the Ice Capades for all the pansies. It's a rough sport and **** happens. SJ went 1 for 3 on the PP. They'll be first tomorrow and the next day and we'll still be 29th going on 30th. What's your point. Maybe Avery can squeeze his stick tight enough until it evaporates. That way every hater out there will be satisfied with the dull robotic play that is the Los Angeles Kings.
We have a few bright shining lights out there and Avery is the least of their problems. If you think losing 5-2 and SJ scoring on one PP was the turning point. Well, I don't know what to say.
This is what happens when you grow up in the Andy Murray School of Hockey. Yes, hockey is a rough sport and **** happens, but hockey is also a game of SKILL, VISION, THOUGHT, and FINESSE. It's not about who can cycle the puck the longest or who can drive their opponent through the boards or who can piss off the most players on the other team. THE WHOLE POINT OF HOCKEY IS TO SCORE MORE GOALS THAN YOUR OPPONENT.

Kings hockey might be dull and robotic without Avery "hustling and working hard" (I prefer to call it playing out of control), but that isn't a problem with the game - just a lack of skill in the Kings' veteran lineup.

In yesterday's game, Avery was a -4. That means he was on the ice for all 4 even strength goals AND in the penalty box for goal #5. Is it a coincidence that he was involved in ALL 5 of their goals? Are you aware that Avery has the most shots on goal for the team, yet has one of the lowest scoring percentages for the forwards?

Avery isn't the least of their problems, but that doesn't make him an asset either...

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01-12-2007, 02:38 PM
  #38
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Lubo definitely played pissed. I think at some point he just realized that he's the only defenseman on the team capable of moving a puck out of the zone. He doesn't even bother to pass to Miller.
Yeah Lubo was very pissed. Not very hard to notice when Lubo is usually acting calm through other past games. So many things that the Kings need to improve on and it needs to start on the D i think. Norstrom? Why is he still a king? Miller? Blake? I can keep going on. Keep Lubo and find him some help!

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01-12-2007, 02:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by lakings41 View Post
So I guess we're well on our way to creating the Ice Capades for all the pansies. It's a rough sport and **** happens. SJ went 1 for 3 on the PP. They'll be first tomorrow and the next day and we'll still be 29th going on 30th. What's your point. Maybe Avery can squeeze his stick tight enough until it evaporates. That way every hater out there will be satisfied with the dull robotic play that is the Los Angeles Kings.
Whaaaa???!!! I've read this post three times and I still can't figure out where you're going. There's usually a post where a thread starts to go off the deep end. There it is.

Chill man. It's just Sean Avery. Some of us are trying to make the point that Sean is not helping the team.

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01-12-2007, 03:07 PM
  #40
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Some of us are trying to make the point that Sean is not helping the team.

Which is fine and I dont have a problem with.

What I do have a problem with is why this is coming after his worst game of the season. Every player has an awful game.

I didnt see a thread about Avery being a liability every time he steps on the ice after we played Detroit this last time, when he was a plus 3.

Now that Cloutier is gone, Avery is a scapegoat for all the problems of the team and it is just not true.

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01-12-2007, 03:22 PM
  #41
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3 Kings players have a plus rating: Armstrong +10, TK +3, Camm +2.

4 players have a plus/minus rating of 0: McCauley (give it a few games though) O'sullivan, Pushy, Harrold

The balance are all minus.

Out of the current 23 man roster, 3 players are a plus.

Willsie -18
Norstrom -15
Thornton / Blake - 13
Dallman -11 (31 games)

Frolov has 20 even strength points and is still a -7. Frolov was -1 last night, so prior to last night his plus minus was worst than Avery's too.

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01-12-2007, 03:26 PM
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Which is fine and I dont have a problem with.

What I do have a problem with is why this is coming after his worst game of the season. Every player has an awful game.

I didnt see a thread about Avery being a liability every time he steps on the ice after we played Detroit this last time, when he was a plus 3.

Now that Cloutier is gone, Avery is a scapegoat for all the problems of the team and it is just not true.
I won't speak for all the other Avery haters (I actually have more of a complete disrespect for him than a hatred) but for me, Avery is the type of player who must attract attention to himself at all times. Perhaps it is low self-esteem, perhaps it is just the Terrell Owens syndrome but either way, it detracts from the team concept. In the "old days" several of Avery's teammates would have solved the problem themselves by beating the crap out of him during or after practice. Since that doesn't happen these days, it just becomes a lingering locker room problem (as it CLEARLY was last year). unfortunately, I don't ever see him changing. He has talent (despite hands of stone around the net) but would function far more effectively on a veteran laden team like Detroit (but obviously they don't want him either). On a team like the kings which is trying to build and develop young talent, I think he is far more destructive than constructive.

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01-12-2007, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt13 View Post
3 Kings players have a plus rating: Armstrong +10, TK +3, Camm +2.

4 players have a plus/minus rating of 0: McCauley (give it a few games though) O'sullivan, Pushy, Harrold

The balance are all minus.

Out of the current 23 man roster, 3 players are a plus.

Willsie -18
Norstrom -15
Thornton / Blake - 13
Dallman -11 (31 games)

Frolov has 20 even strength points and is still a -7. Frolov was -1 last night, so prior to last night his plus minus was worst than Avery's too.


Well... This is a good example of why the +/- stat has some real problems.

Take Norstrom for example. Most often when the other teams big name offensive threat is on the ice you make sure that Norstrom is there to hopefully slow the guy down. Problem is that we had Cloutier in goal so that everyone and their mothers was getting easy stupid goals regardless of how well or poorly our team was playing.

So in this situation of a truly terrible goalie your going to see dramatically higher +/- then would normally be expected.


I think we have a decent to average defensive team regardless of the overall stats. One player can completely destroy defensive stats if that one player is the goalie....

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01-12-2007, 03:33 PM
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I won't speak for all the other Avery haters (I actually have more of a complete disrespect for him than a hatred) but for me, Avery is the type of player who must attract attention to himself at all times. Perhaps it is low self-esteem, perhaps it is just the Terrell Owens syndrome but either way, it detracts from the team concept. In the "old days" several of Avery's teammates would have solved the problem themselves by beating the crap out of him during or after practice. Since that doesn't happen these days, it just becomes a lingering locker room problem (as it CLEARLY was last year). unfortunately, I don't ever see him changing. He has talent (despite hands of stone around the net) but would function far more effectively on a veteran laden team like Detroit (but obviously they don't want him either). On a team like the kings which is trying to build and develop young talent, I think he is far more destructive than constructive.

It's funny that this is brought up.

I have friends that are "in the know". You may have friends that are "in the know". It seems everyone knows someone "in the know".

I have heard from plenty of people that he is well liked by a lot of his teammates. He rooms with Frolov and apparently they have become good friends. This incident with Thornton is now being made out to be a fight between Avery and Thornton. It could be but it sounds like guys messing around. Do you pair up two guys who dislike each other for TV appearances? Did it look like they werent a pair of jokers and Scott's injury could very well have been an accident?

Everyone brings up Lappy and Ebel for what they have said. Who cares? They are gone. At your work, are you liked by everyone? Do you like everyone? You are a team of people that depends on each other to get things done. It doesnt mean you have to like them.

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01-12-2007, 03:36 PM
  #45
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So what has Avery done this season that gives any of you the idea that he has been disrespectful towards his teammates? Avery used to be more confrontational, calling out teammates for not showing a lack of effort, and you know what? He was right. It may seem out of line when he was one of the younger guys in the room, but how can you accuse him of being wrong for calling out on players who are dogging it?

The reason why Lombardi kept him around is because he was well aware that Avery was one of the hardest working players on the ice. I guess it rubs the old dogs the wrong way when a young pup is out hustling them and he's calling them out for now showing the same effort.

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01-12-2007, 03:37 PM
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I won't speak for all the other Avery haters (I actually have more of a complete disrespect for him than a hatred) but for me, Avery is the type of player who must attract attention to himself at all times. Perhaps it is low self-esteem, perhaps it is just the Terrell Owens syndrome but either way, it detracts from the team concept. In the "old days" several of Avery's teammates would have solved the problem themselves by beating the crap out of him during or after practice. Since that doesn't happen these days, it just becomes a lingering locker room problem (as it CLEARLY was last year). unfortunately, I don't ever see him changing. He has talent (despite hands of stone around the net) but would function far more effectively on a veteran laden team like Detroit (but obviously they don't want him either). On a team like the kings which is trying to build and develop young talent, I think he is far more destructive than constructive.
What has he done to draw attention to himself this year? Besides throw checks at people who aren't supposed to be checked and infuse energy into all of his shifts?

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01-12-2007, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt13 View Post
It's funny that this is brought up.

I have friends that are "in the know". You may have friends that are "in the know". It seems everyone knows someone "in the know".

I have heard from plenty of people that he is well liked by a lot of his teammates. He rooms with Frolov and apparently they have become good friends. This incident with Thornton is now being made out to be a fight between Avery and Thornton. It could be but it sounds like guys messing around. Do you pair up two guys who dislike each other for TV appearances? Did it look like they werent a pair of jokers and Scott's injury could very well have been an accident?

Everyone brings up Lappy and Ebel for what they have said. Who cares? They are gone. At your work, are you liked by everyone? Do you like everyone? You are a team of people that depends on each other to get things done. It doesnt mean you have to like them.
It's kinda funny that both of those guys are off the team....so much for only Avery being the one not liked...

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01-12-2007, 03:38 PM
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Well... This is a good example of why the +/- stat has some real problems.

I concur that the stat is a bit skewed, but Avery was on the ice for just as many games as Norstrom was when Cloutier was in net. Did Norstrom see more of the other teams top lines? While I dont have an exact stat, I am sure he did but that doesnt mean Sean wasnt seeing time against those lines either.

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01-12-2007, 03:38 PM
  #49
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It's kinda funny that both of those guys are off the team....so much for only Avery being the one not liked...

Only guy who I think disliked Avery was JR. I bet Avery wasn't willing to pretend that washed up hack was worth anything to anyone.

That being said. Did Avery have a bad game. Sure. But by and large he has been darn good this year. The team is better with him then without.

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01-12-2007, 03:41 PM
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Only guy who I think disliked Avery was JR. I bet Avery wasn't willing to pretend that washed up hack was worth anything to anyone.

That being said. Did Avery have a bad game. Sure. But by and large he has been darn good this year. The team is better with him then without.
Where did you come up with that? JR actually likes Avery.

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