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Old
12-05-2003, 12:22 PM
  #51
Malefic74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
I said if you have players who won't listen to a coach, you can fire the coach, but it doesn't mean the player is going to change in the long run.
Here is where I have a problem with your defense. Certain players react better to certain motivational techniques. That is a fact. Some guys need to be yelled at, some guys need to be left alone. Sometimes ou have to get guys good and mad; every player is different. And if you think The style of the coach has nothing to do with the players you're just being naive.

Exhibit A: Dave Lewis vs. Scott Bowman and Sergei Federov. Two different coaches entirely different players. With Bowman constantly on him Federov became one of the more dynamic 2 way forwards in the game. With Lewis laying back, Federov was noticeably off.

Exhibit B: Jacques Demers vs. Mario Tremblay and Patrick Roy. Jacques lets Patrick do his own thing and march to his own drummer. Result Stanley Cup run of 93. Tremblay gets in, screams, yells and embarasses Patrick. Result Patrick gone and a long slide for the Habs begins.

Now imagine if instead of 1 or 2 guys this is like 8 or 10. At that point the problem IS the coach. Not saying this is specifically the case in Edmonton, but it does happen in the NHL and players can change both for good or ill under different kinds of coaching.

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Old
12-05-2003, 12:31 PM
  #52
Master Lok
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pffft! Armchair GM's indeed. Anyone of you guys have any NHL experience and know how to win? Nope. just a whole bunch of Armchair GM/fans.

The Oilers 5 v 5 is fine. They're in a slump now, but they were doing fantastic five games ago and they will again. What's killing them is not the PP, its the PK. If the PK can hold off the powerplays, then the Oiler win or tie these past several games. you asked DB how can the PK improve? Reasoner. We're missing our #1 faceoff guy, our best checking centre and PK dude. And his name isn't Marchant, its Reasoner.

As for the PP, I have faith that Lowe's signing of Oates will pay off. It just takes more than 3 games for Oates to mesh with the PP unit. Hopefully he can help direct where people should be and he should be able to help the faceoff percentages.

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Old
12-05-2003, 12:55 PM
  #53
Bohologo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
pffft! Armchair GM's indeed. Anyone of you guys have any NHL experience and know how to win? Nope. just a whole bunch of Armchair GM/fans.
Whatever you say, Mr. Lowe.

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12-05-2003, 01:20 PM
  #54
dawgbone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
Here is where I have a problem with your defense. Certain players react better to certain motivational techniques. That is a fact. Some guys need to be yelled at, some guys need to be left alone. Sometimes ou have to get guys good and mad; every player is different. And if you think The style of the coach has nothing to do with the players you're just being naive.

Exhibit A: Dave Lewis vs. Scott Bowman and Sergei Federov. Two different coaches entirely different players. With Bowman constantly on him Federov became one of the more dynamic 2 way forwards in the game. With Lewis laying back, Federov was noticeably off.

Exhibit B: Jacques Demers vs. Mario Tremblay and Patrick Roy. Jacques lets Patrick do his own thing and march to his own drummer. Result Stanley Cup run of 93. Tremblay gets in, screams, yells and embarasses Patrick. Result Patrick gone and a long slide for the Habs begins.

Now imagine if instead of 1 or 2 guys this is like 8 or 10. At that point the problem IS the coach. Not saying this is specifically the case in Edmonton, but it does happen in the NHL and players can change both for good or ill under different kinds of coaching.
So when you bring the new coach in, what's to say that a separate group of players won't tune him out? Or that the same group won't tune him out?

That is my problem. You get a rocky time, and the coach is gone. So for the next little while, the big excuse is gone, and the players are the ones who have to be accountable.

Then what happens a lot of times is the players play well for a while, and that accountability slowly fades, and then gets shifted to the new coach.

Want proof? Look at Mike Keenan. He comes in guns a blazing, turns the team around for some short term succeess, then loses it. What happens with the team?

They take a step back. Look at Calgary. They went through about 4 coaches in their 7 year drought, and each time, they would play well for a spurt, then it would die off. Calgary now is finally starting to make strides for the first time in years. Is it another one of those situations where as soon as the players stop having to be accountable, it will fall apart? Tough to say, but chances are not likely because Sutter is also the GM, meaning he has all the power.

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Old
12-05-2003, 03:09 PM
  #55
hmminvisiblecola1279
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armchair gms indeed wake up pal we are just formulating opinions that might be right or might be wrong, so what we have that right. personally i enjoy the discussions on what should be done or what shouldnt be done. speculation can be fun.

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Old
12-05-2003, 03:30 PM
  #56
Mowzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
pffft! Armchair GM's indeed. Anyone of you guys have any NHL experience and know how to win? Nope. just a whole bunch of Armchair GM/fans.

The Oilers 5 v 5 is fine. They're in a slump now, but they were doing fantastic five games ago and they will again. What's killing them is not the PP, its the PK. If the PK can hold off the powerplays, then the Oiler win or tie these past several games. you asked DB how can the PK improve? Reasoner. We're missing our #1 faceoff guy, our best checking centre and PK dude. And his name isn't Marchant, its Reasoner.

As for the PP, I have faith that Lowe's signing of Oates will pay off. It just takes more than 3 games for Oates to mesh with the PP unit. Hopefully he can help direct where people should be and he should be able to help the faceoff percentages.
my beloved ignoranus, what do you mean whats killing us is not our PP, its our PK. if this team only had one singular problem, we would be fine; unfortunately, we have numerous problems, PP might not be our biggest problem, but when you have a 5-on-3, and then a 6-on-4, you have to capitalize, Minny was struggling just as much as the Oilers were. yes injury and departures have set us back, but Reasoner doesnt play on our PP does he. We have more than enough firepower to be able to at the very least get a high percentage shot on the PP. Smyth, Hemsky, Oates, York, Dvorak and Bergeron among others should atleast be creating oppertunities for themselves, but they arent, they arent doing anything right now.

So lets agree to disagree, the PP sucks, the PK sucks, and my vacuum sucks.

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Old
12-06-2003, 09:45 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowzie
I watch teams with marginal talent run their PP's and they make it look so easy. Minny had total control on their PP's, on one they had it in our zone the entire 2 minutes. They have one talented player and the rest of pluggers, if they can score on the PP, then anyone can. why do they score on PP's, because they have a system!!!
Edmonton is 6th last on the PP and Minnesota is 5 spots better than them, scoring about 3 more PP goals per 100 attempts. Minnesota's PP has been historically horrendous (ask igor for the details). I like your sentiment, but maybe Minnesota is NOT the example to point to.

BTW Minnesota has been superlative on the road on the PK. 3rd in the league. Not much of a surprise they made the Oilers marginal PP look bad: they've been doing it to other teams too.

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Old
12-06-2003, 12:56 PM
  #58
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Just wanted to say, my armchair GM comment wasn't meant as a dig! I seemed to have riled up a few guys, which was not my intention at all (so my apologies...). I'm as guilty of that as anyone on here. Just wanted to point out that typically, a "fire the coach!!!" mentality crops up when teams are not doing well. It's an overreaction by fans I think, because we all do the "if I were coach, I'd...." thing. And I still maintain it's the players who need to perform.

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Old
12-06-2003, 01:32 PM
  #59
hmminvisiblecola1279
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sorry there man i did not read your message correctly. no you are right it is a lot easier for us to be critical and suggest changes especially when we are not the ones in the hotseat.

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Old
12-06-2003, 04:54 PM
  #60
Vyse64
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can we just fire his ass right now

he refuses to change the PP, even after its ranked 25th right now and the PK is worst the in the NHL of course that could be because of Reasoner's injury but good teams/coaches find a way

I am really getting fed up with MacT after being a supporter of his last year

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