HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Roloson: The Butterfly Technique

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-14-2007, 01:49 AM
  #1
Bring Back Smyth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,688
vCash: 500
Roloson: The Butterfly Technique

Let me start this off by saying that last year when we acquired Roloson, I defended him completely when people said he was nothing more then a 37-year old back-up. Things have come spiraling down since then.

When I was 12 I decided I wanted to pursue goaltending because quite frankly I sucked at everything else. My mom did me one of the best things she could and enrolled me into John Stevenson’s Goalie School. I’m sure many of you who follow the goaltender community here in Edmonton know who John is. For those who don’t, http://www.goaliecentre.com/johnstevenson.shtml. The first session we had he asked me to show me my goaltender stance, I showed him and he pointed out about a dozen errors showed me whats wrong. Then he told me to go down in the “butterfly”. Me being 12, knowing nothing more about goaltending then Curtis Joseph had no idea what I was doing. He quickly corrected me showing me the correct way of the butterfly and the importance of stick positioning and being big in the net. Goaltenders here on HF can attest to this, not having your stick down on the ice is goalie suicide, it’s absolutely horrible, there is nothing worse you can do as a goaltender to not have your stick blade on the ice covering your five-hole as you flatten your legs out like a “butterfly”. When I was 14 I then attended the Goalie Camp, which ran over a week or two during the course of the summer. Although my memory is a lot foggy when it comes to those younger ages of mine, but what I strictly remember is how they reinforced your stick positioning and having your stick on the ice at all times. During exercises and drills, if you were caught without your stick in position or if the instructor could knock the stick out of your hand you were in boiling water, let alone hot.

Enough about me, let’s move on to Roloson. Here’s a little background about Roloson: He was undrafted, is currently in his 22nd year of professional hockey and the Edmonton Oilers are the 4th NHL team he has been on. The most amount of games he has played in a season is 50 with the Minnesota Wild, this season he is on pace for 72 games. Yeah, you read right, seventy-two games.

Let’s diagnose Roloson’s butterfly for a second:



Stick in the air, arms tucked into his sides, legs not extended outwards… I would not even call this a butterfly. This is the epidemy of a goalie that Goaltending Coaches would rag the crap out of.

Here is how it is supposed to look like:

The butterfly is intended to take up as much space in the net as possible while challenging, and cutting down the angles. Roli sure does cut down angles and challenges, but when it comes to taking up as much space in the net as possible he is guilty. As I mentioned before, his stick is completely out of position and his arms are tucked into his sides! I remember earlier on in the year and even last year Roli was quoted saying he plays just as well without his stick then with his stick... well that is a horrible, horrible thing to say. Any "butterfly" goalie that says they don't need their stick... isn't playing the butterfly.

I have gone through every single game this year and have spotted errors in his butterfly which lead to goals which should have lead to pretty routine saves for any technically sound goaltender.

Game 2: @ Calgary, Stephen Yelle scores off of a tip in front of the net and it goes yeap, you guessed it five-hole. Roloson knows it’s a bad goal once he realizes it goes in.

Game 3: vs. S.J., Cheechoo receives a pass just inside the right face-off circle and wires it five-hole.

Game 4: @ COL, Wolski takes the rebound in the slot and shoves it five-hole. Although it was a rebound and Roli had less time to recover, a goalie who prides himself on technique would have his stick in position. That is an iffy one though.

Game 5: @ VAN, Salo circles around the net, Roloson is screened by a group of defensemen and goes down in his infamous butterfly, or lack thereof, with his shoulders at his knees opening up the entire upper portion of the net. Salo makes no mistake. This goal is not a bad goal at all, however, every goalie knows when they are screened then BE BIG in the net, try to take up as much space as you can and just rely on your butterfly, or lack thereof.

Game 8: vs. PHX, Comrie shoots it from just above the half boards, closer to the blueline and scores five-hole.

Game 9: @ANA, Roloson gives up a rebound in the slot straight to S. Neidermayer, however, Roli was quick to recover only thing is… his stick and his blocker hand are still on the other side of the net and he gets beat five-hole.

Game 9: @ANA, The Ducks break in the zone, Shannon is on the far left boards at a low-percentage angle, wires a slap shot and beat Roloson five-hole.

Game 9: @ANA, Moen deflects it five-hole while Roloson’s stick is still yet to be found.

Game 12: vs. NSH, looks like it is deflected in front of the net by Fiddler hard to tell from the nhl.com highlights, but it is clear enough to see Roli got beat five-hole

Game 12: vs. NSH, Shea Weber point shot on the PP, Roli is partially screened but still goes down in his “stick-up, arms tucked in butterfly” and it appears to beat him five-hole

Game 12: vs NSH, Suter receives a pass at the top of the right face-off circle, wrist shots it past the glove of Roloson. Roloson bashes his stick in frustration fully aware that he should have had that goal, but instead he was in “stick-up, arms tucked in butterfly” boy, lets hope Roli doesn’t open a goalie school when he retires…

Game 15: @DET, Hard to tell from the NHL highlights once again, but Cleary appears to beat Roloson five-hole as Roloson looks straight down between his legs once it goes in.. wow you’d think he’d get it eh?

Game 20: vs. DET, Markov takes a wrist shot from a bit higher then the slot and it beats Roli, lets say it together this time, five-hole.

Game 20: vs. DET, Roloson loses his stick, but according to him he can play just as well without it, and gets scored on with less then 5 seconds left in the period to tie the game up at 3, where? five-hole. I think he should play without a stick for the rest of his career, its not like he uses it…

Game 22: vs. CHI, Holmqvist gathers a rebound at the left face-off circle and puts it over Roloson’s blocker shoulder because his arms are down at his knees. This was a rebound though, so it is an iffy one.

Game 23: vs. ANA, a mess in front of the net, Roloson goes down in his “stick-up, arms tucked in butterfly” and slides to the right side of the net to get into position, however, in the process of doing so his right shoulder drops down to his ankles, Kunitz then ties up the game at 2-2 with 17 seconds left in the 3rd. This is another one I wouldn’t call a “horrible” one but definitely a “technically sound” goalie maybe would’ve had.

Game 24: vs. COL, JML wires it at the top of the right face-off circle and appears to have found its way through Roli’s five-hole

Game 24: vs. COL, Stastny deflects a shot five-hole. Roloson’s stick? Who the hell knows, wow this gets more and more frustrating each game I go through.

Game 24: vs. COL, Hejduk on the PP slides it five-hole from a scramble in the slot. Usually when there is a scramble and the goalie doesn’t know where the puck is he goes in his butterfly taking up as much space as possible, that does include your stick blade between your pads… that also applies to when a goalie is screened.

Game 25: vs. CLB, Svitov on a 3v3 wires it five-hole

Game 30: @NSH, Fiddler weakly backhands it, trickles underneath Roloson’s pad as he isn’t able to cover the bottom half of the ice.

Game 33: vs. COL, a horribly weak backhand by Rycroft from above the slot trickles in five-hole.

Game 33: vs. COL, Roloson lets in a wrap-around through the five-hole. So much for an active stick..

Game 35: @DAL, Boucher trickles a bouncer through five-hole.

Game 38: @CGY, Iginla wires a one-timer past Roloson’s right shoulder as he sets himself up in “stick-up, arms tucked in butterfly”

Game 38: @CGY, Roloson screened during the PP, Phaneuf lets a wrister go from the blue-line and while he’s screened instead of being ‘big in the net’ Roloson decides that tucking his arms in, opening up his five-hole and not extending his legs out would be the best option to 1) save the shot and 2) be in safe position for any deflections. Unfortunately, Roloson’s decision making was found wrong as he was scored on five-hole.


I’m going to stop at the month of January because I’m pretty sure everyone is seeing my point.

Here’s a little math, during the season, with exception to the month of January, we let in 110 goals. From my analysis above, Roloson let in 21 goals through the five-hole, give or take 5 that I may have missed or saw wrong off of NHL highlights. That is a percentage of 19% of the goals we let in go five-hole. However, those 110 goals are a wrong statistic because that includes the amount of goals Juice has let in as well. So it is well above the 20% mark for Roloson… not a good stat at all. Speaking of Jussi, isn’t it time we get him in some games? The guy took us to G7 it’s not like he’s a liability to throw into a couple games here and then, especially when we’re talking about back-to-backs and the type of travel schedule we’ve been facing.

For a 37 year-old goaltender who has been in the league for a while and prides himself upon his positioning and his technique, Roloson must have the absolutely WORST butterfly in the league. Don't get me wrong, Roloson's concentration and his athleticsm despite his age has won us alot of games. But anybody who has been a goaltender or who knows anything about goaltending knows that his butterfly could use alot of work. How many times has Roloson been beat five-hole?

In conclusion, Roloson seriously needs to work on his butterfly and his stick positioning, it completely baffles the **** out of me how a professional goalie with professional coaches and a bottomless pit of useful supplies and video cannot get in the habit of going down in the proper butterfly after 37 years of life.

Bring Back Smyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 01:51 AM
  #2
Sachiko
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,228
vCash: 500
I blame it on Soviet Russia.

In Soviet Russia Butterfly Technique uses You.

-- In al seriousness though, I agree with you. As much as I like Roli, his butterfly is nothing to write home about. It's cost us some bad game deciding goals this year... it needs to improve. Simple as that.

Sachiko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 03:46 AM
  #3
vb
Registered User
 
vb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Miami, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,280
vCash: 500
Wow! That is a great effort you put into your post. I agree that he lets in too many 5 holes and they are the most demoralizing ones to see go in the net.

I will make correction (and it is no excuse), but Roli has only been playing the butterfly for the last 8 years or so. He broke into the NHL with the Flames as a stand-up goalie but only developed his butterfly before going to Minnesota.

vb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 04:02 AM
  #4
oilfaninvan
Registered User
 
oilfaninvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: van
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,832
vCash: 500
Crazy post man.

I have noticed lately that many goals have been going 5-hole and it became very obvious that the scouting report on Roli was to shoot there on him. I wondered how many goals had been scored that way and you just answered my question - many!

Roloson has looked just awful lately, but I suppose that is becuase he has let in so many goals like this. I have also noticed a few going over the shoulder, but not many goalies can save those.

Another thing that irritates me is when he goes behind the net to get the puck only to move it up the boards to an opposing player. Is this his fault or one of the forwards not collecting the pass?

oilfaninvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 04:50 AM
  #5
Matty31
Registered User
 
Matty31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 481
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Matty31
Wow great post!
I agree Roli has not been playing well and our record lately shows it.
The past two games the opposing goalie has played better and thats the difference maker. The team has been playing hard and the defense has been good. A couple more saves from Roli and we would be on a nice win streak right now instead of talking about this downward spiral.

Matty31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 04:53 AM
  #6
sticknrink
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,730
vCash: 500
Goals from the five-hole is attributed imo to the agility of the goalie.

It's a split second when a forward sees the five hole open and a goaltender seeing the shot come off. Auld and Luongo are two identical goaltenders regarding technique and size. However, Auld is a backup because he's incredibly slow compared to a guy like Luongo.

Roloson from what I've seen is fine with his technique (you can't have bad basics and be in the NHL) but he is slow. He also doesn't seem to be all that mentally focused and that's trouble. Earlier in the year with the wins he was confident and focused and could cover up his agility with technique and playing the percentages, now that he's second guessing himself he doesn't have agility to react quickly enough and he can't properly play the shooter.

sticknrink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 06:21 AM
  #7
willyjagr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: edmonton
Posts: 36
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to willyjagr
Well hate to rag on your little piece BUT... if you haven't been to John recently(like the past 4 years or more) that butterfly is no longer being taught that way by goalie coachs or by himself. I say this because I WAS a student of his(had to retire because of a knee problem/injury) back when I use to play.(last time was junior B 2 years ago) But that would be what is considered or at least I call it the butterfly block in that you try and limit the amount of goals that go through your body which was a big problem with the "older" butterfly. With this you tuck in your elbows so they are tight to your body and you have no holes for the puck to go in between your gloves and body which are killers. All of this comes out from the Alliare camp which for the people who don't know who he is I will enlighten them. Well he is famous for being Roys goalie coach when he first broke into the league and also being the man who developed so many of the Quebec goalies such as Giguere,Luongo and so on, oh and currently he is the Anaheim goalie coach. The thinking behind this is that you start with a solid body out aproach and don't allow or try to limit the goals that go through you and attempt to get the shooters to either score outside of the body or shoot wide;the perfect example of this is Giguere.

willyjagr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 09:27 AM
  #8
slapshot™
Registered User
 
slapshot™'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: K-Country
Posts: 164
vCash: 500
Quote:
For a 37 year-old goaltender who has been in the league for a while and prides himself upon his positioning and his technique, Roloson must have the absolutely WORST butterfly in the league. Don't get me wrong, Roloson's concentration and his athleticsm despite his age has won us alot of games. But anybody who has been a goaltender or who knows anything about goaltending knows that his butterfly could use alot of work. How many times has Roloson been beat five-hole?
You make a good point about keeping your stick on the ice but you must give Roli kudos for lateral movement. He has to be one of the better netminders out there that can fluidly and cleanly move from post to post.

I'm a 44 year old goaltender that used to play against Fuhr in minor hockey, so what the heck do I know!?!? *L*

slapshot™ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 10:53 AM
  #9
Oilerdiehard
Registered User
 
Oilerdiehard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,460
vCash: 500
I admit I only read part of your marathon post, so I hope this is not just more repeat. But one thing that has bothered me is there have been a lot of goals go in Roli's 5 hole when in the butterfly simply because he did not drop his stick down to cover it. It is always in the air or laying uselessly at his side on the ice. Also lately he has not been hugging up to the post very well when there is traffic at the sides and behind the net, players see that and are getting easy goals and bank-in goals because of that space.

I love Roli and I do think he is a good goalie when he decides to put it all together but it is fair to point out his weaknesses and mental lapses as they have hurt in recent times when we needed him to hold the fort.

Oilerdiehard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 11:49 AM
  #10
Bring Back Smyth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyjagr View Post
Well hate to rag on your little piece BUT... if you haven't been to John recently(like the past 4 years or more) that butterfly is no longer being taught that way by goalie coachs or by himself. I say this because I WAS a student of his(had to retire because of a knee problem/injury) back when I use to play.(last time was junior B 2 years ago) But that would be what is considered or at least I call it the butterfly block in that you try and limit the amount of goals that go through your body which was a big problem with the "older" butterfly. With this you tuck in your elbows so they are tight to your body and you have no holes for the puck to go in between your gloves and body which are killers. All of this comes out from the Alliare camp which for the people who don't know who he is I will enlighten them. Well he is famous for being Roys goalie coach when he first broke into the league and also being the man who developed so many of the Quebec goalies such as Giguere,Luongo and so on, oh and currently he is the Anaheim goalie coach. The thinking behind this is that you start with a solid body out aproach and don't allow or try to limit the goals that go through you and attempt to get the shooters to either score outside of the body or shoot wide;the perfect example of this is Giguere.
Well yes, I haven't been to John in a while as I stopped competitive hockey a little over two years ago. However, I have known of what you refer to as the "butterfly block" but was taught that when you are screened you still act as big in the net as possible, which includes your stick blade being down between your five-hole to prevent deflections and weird bounces.

I have watched Luongo intensively over the years as he was is one of my favorite goaltenders (well now that he plays for Vancouver he isn't so liked ) but I don't see any resemblence at all between his style of butterfly and Roli's style of butterfly.

willyjagr, despite our differences with the "butterfly block" we do have an understanding on how important your stick, and stick positioning is to a butterfly goaltender?

Bring Back Smyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 11:56 AM
  #11
Bring Back Smyth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vb View Post
Wow! That is a great effort you put into your post. I agree that he lets in too many 5 holes and they are the most demoralizing ones to see go in the net.

I will make correction (and it is no excuse), but Roli has only been playing the butterfly for the last 8 years or so. He broke into the NHL with the Flames as a stand-up goalie but only developed his butterfly before going to Minnesota.
Yeah I was driven by the frustration of losing these oh so important games lately, it feels as if when the Oilers are struggling it completely parallels my mood. That may seem quite sad.

In all seriousness, sure he just learned the "butterfly" 8 years ago, you are around some of the best goalie coaches in the world and you still can't break your dirty habits? That's a poor excuse in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknrink
Goals from the five-hole is attributed imo to the agility of the goalie.

It's a split second when a forward sees the five hole open and a goaltender seeing the shot come off. Auld and Luongo are two identical goaltenders regarding technique and size. However, Auld is a backup because he's incredibly slow compared to a guy like Luongo.

Roloson from what I've seen is fine with his technique (you can't have bad basics and be in the NHL) but he is slow. He also doesn't seem to be all that mentally focused and that's trouble. Earlier in the year with the wins he was confident and focused and could cover up his agility with technique and playing the percentages, now that he's second guessing himself he doesn't have agility to react quickly enough and he can't properly play the shooter.
I don't really agree with you that Auld and Luongo have the same technique, but to be frank, I haven't seen all that much of Auld in his career.

I also don't agree with your opinion on Roloson and his technique. How in the freakin' world is it fine? In my opinion, Roloson is one of the most mentally strongest, focused and determined goaltenders in the National Hockey League and I think that is the only thing keeping him in this league at that age because it certainly isn't his form of butterfly.

You said earlier in the year he was playing well, being mentally focused and was covering up the five-hole? Go back to my original post, all those goals I wrote about were excluding the month of January and it's not like it's just a bad streak, this has been going on since the first couple games of the season.

Bring Back Smyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 04:16 PM
  #12
Manicmoose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 298
vCash: 500
sounds like someone should forward this thread to the Oil head office and let them read those numbers... maybe then Roli himself could analyze the caverness 5 hole he has....

Manicmoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 06:22 PM
  #13
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
Let me start this off by saying that last year when we acquired Roloson, I defended

Enough about me, let’s move on to Roloson. Here’s a little background about Roloson: He was undrafted, is currently in his 22nd year of professional hockey and the Edmonton Oilers are the 4th NHL team he has been on. The most amount of games he has played in a season is 50 with the Minnesota Wild, this season he is on pace for 72 games. Yeah, you read right, seventy-two games.

Let’s diagnose Roloson’s butterfly for a second:



Stick in the air, arms tucked into his sides, legs not extended outwards… I would not even call this a butterfly. This is the epidemy of a goalie that Goaltending Coaches would rag the crap out of.

Here is how it is supposed to look like:

The butterfly is intended to take up as much space in the net as possible while challenging, and cutting down the angles. Roli sure does cut down angles and challenges, but when it comes to taking up as much space in the net as possible he is guilty. As I mentioned before, his stick is completely out of position and his arms are tucked into his sides! I remember earlier on in the year and even last year Roli was quoted saying he plays just as well without his stick then with his stick... well that is a horrible, horrible thing to say. Any "butterfly" goalie that says they don't need their stick... isn't playing the butterfly.

I have gone through every single game this year and have spotted errors in his butterfly which lead to goals which should have lead to pretty routine saves for any technically sound goaltender.

For a 37 year-old goaltender who has been in the league for a while and prides himself upon his positioning and his technique, Roloson must have the absolutely WORST butterfly in the league. Don't get me wrong, Roloson's concentration and his athleticsm despite his age has won us alot of games. But anybody who has been a goaltender or who knows anything about goaltending knows that his butterfly could use alot of work. How many times has Roloson been beat five-hole?

In conclusion, Roloson seriously needs to work on his butterfly and his stick positioning, it completely baffles the **** out of me how a professional goalie with professional coaches and a bottomless pit of useful supplies and video cannot get in the habit of going down in the proper butterfly after 37 years of life.
OK well first you talk about Rolis gloves and his positioning with his Arms at his sides. That is a proper technique as it is the block - when guys are in tight you bring your arms to your side and your gloves are at the hops our your pads when you are in the butterfly because the only places a guy can score when a goalie is in tight and you are in the butterfly is in the 6 and 7 wholes. Look at the pick of Roy and Roli, you can see both of them are doing this technique. (and no goalie coaches don't rag on this and I know what John teaches because I work for himand have done so for 10 years) Added to that you talk about Rolis butterfly as the worst in the league, well that is nonsense because all you have to do is look at Giguere and Loungo - when they go down they barely have any flare at all (about 95% of the time Jiggy leterally drops onto his knees why Luongo does the exact same thing). Added to that look where he is being beat you say it is the 5 hole but that does not have anything to do with the flare of a butterfly, if his butterfly was terrible then he would be beat more and more to the corners. Sure it is not as good as say Fluery's or Lehtnen's but these guys have worked on their flexibility for specifically the butterfly many many years which is something Roli could not have done because he was at that stage when stand up was tought to him as a kid/youth but butterfly was becoming the norm in the NHL when he got to the pros. Remember it also takes years and years of working on the flexibility for your butterfly. Goals on the 5 whole have very little to do with the actual butterfly but with stick positioning and you can see that in your secong pic as his blocker should be square to the play more and that is why his stick is off to the side.

Oh yeah in your first Roli pic look where the puck is - it is in his body and he is squeezing it that is why it appears to look like crap as you say.


Last edited by gr8haluschak: 01-14-2007 at 06:33 PM.
gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2007, 06:28 PM
  #14
McOkMcgoMcoil
Registered User
 
McOkMcgoMcoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 13,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
OK well first you talk about Rolis gloves and his positioning with his Arms at his sides. That is a proper technique as it is the block - when guys are in tight you bring your arms to your side and your gloves are at the hops our your pads when you are in the butterfly because the only places a guy can score when a goalie is in tight and you are in the butterfly is in the 6 and 7 wholes. Look at the pick of Roy and Roli, you can see both of them are doing this technique. (and no goalie coaches don't rag on this and I know what John teaches because I work for himand have done so for 10 years) Added to that you talk about Rolis butterfly as the worst in the league, well that is nonsense because all you have to do is look at Giguere and Loungo - when they go down they barely have any flare at all. Added to that look where he is being beat you say it is the 5 hole but that does not have anything to do with the flare of a butterfly, if his butterfly was terrible then he would be beat more and more to the corners. Sure it is not as good as say Fluery's or Lehtnen's but these guys have worked on their flexibility for specifically the butterfly many many years which is something Roli could not have done because he was at that stage when stand up was tought to him as a kid/youth but butterfly was becoming the norm. Remember it also takes years and years of working on the flexibility for your butterfly. Goals on the 5 whole have very little to do with the actual butterfly but with stick positioning and you can see that in your secong pic as his blocker should be square to the play more and that is why his stick is off to the side.

Oh yeah in your first Roli pic look where the puck is - it is in his body and he is squeezing it that is why it appears to look like crap as you say.

Great post. I said this exact this in the other Roli thread, but it is true.

Roli has actually been very good in january. He really just had a bad december, due to getting bombed in LA and Colorodo two games in a row. I woudl'nt worry about him. Jussi will get his chance, but as of right now roli is the man and should get most of the starts.

Roli has been a top 15 goalie in the league. I would have hoped for top 10, which he probably will be down the stretch. Not bad. THis team needs to score, bottom line. Roli can't help with that.

McOkMcgoMcoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 09:22 AM
  #15
Bring Back Smyth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
OK well first you talk about Rolis gloves and his positioning with his Arms at his sides. That is a proper technique as it is the block - when guys are in tight you bring your arms to your side and your gloves are at the hops our your pads when you are in the butterfly because the only places a guy can score when a goalie is in tight and you are in the butterfly is in the 6 and 7 wholes. Look at the pick of Roy and Roli, you can see both of them are doing this technique.
Exactly. I'm quite aware of the butterfly block and it is proper technique when guys are in tight. Thing is, Roloson's arms are at his side almost permanently. Trust me, I've gone through highlights of every single game excluding January, it gets quite common and evident that this is true. If you don't want to take my word for it you can go through 35 games of highlights yourself.
Quote:
(and no goalie coaches don't rag on this and I know what John teaches because I work for himand have done so for 10 years)
No? Goalie Coaches, especially John and his instructors at least while I was there, don't rag on goalies who don't have their stick blade on the ice? When its up in the air pointlessly? That's ballocks

Quote:
Added to that you talk about Rolis butterfly as the worst in the league, well that is nonsense because all you have to do is look at Giguere and Loungo - when they go down they barely have any flare at all (about 95% of the time Jiggy leterally drops onto his knees why Luongo does the exact same thing).



That's a whole lot of flare then Roloson (see pictures in original post). And if you read my original post I strongly emphasized his stick positioning as oppose to the flare of his butterfly, I barely even touched on the flare of his butterfly.

Quote:
Added to that look where he is being beat you say it is the 5 hole but that does not have anything to do with the flare of a butterfly, if his butterfly was terrible then he would be beat more and more to the corners. Sure it is not as good as say Fluery's or Lehtnen's but these guys have worked on their flexibility for specifically the butterfly many many years which is something Roli could not have done because he was at that stage when stand up was tought to him as a kid/youth but butterfly was becoming the norm in the NHL when he got to the pros. Remember it also takes years and years of working on the flexibility for your butterfly.Goals on the 5 whole have very little to do with the actual butterfly but with stick positioning and you can see that in your secong pic as his blocker should be square to the play more and that is why his stick is off to the side.
Point taken, it does take years to work on your flexibility and I guess that does start young. But again, if you read my original post I think its quite clear I am emphasizing more on his stick positioning more then anything else. Pretty much all of what I said came down to his stick positioning.

Quote:
Oh yeah in your first Roli pic look where the puck is - it is in his body and he is squeezing it that is why it appears to look like crap as you say.
Oh yeah, thats why I put up two pictures. And once again, going through 35 games of highlights it becomes quite evident that that how Roloson goes down 99.5% of the time.

Let me ask you about this glaring stat, 20+% of the goals Roli has let in have gone in five-hole. That's quite a stat and I don't think it should be ignored.

Bring Back Smyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 09:40 AM
  #16
Kung Pow
Registered User
 
Kung Pow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Red Deer, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
Let me ask you about this glaring stat, 20+% of the goals Roli has let in have gone in five-hole. That's quite a stat and I don't think it should be ignored.
If you consider there are only 5 places to score. High glove, low glove, high blocker, low blocker, and five hole, then there is a 1 in 5 chance that they will score five hole. 1 in 5 is 20% so he's right on average

Also, the first pic isn't even a butterfly. Just becuase he is down doesn't mean he is in his butterfly, He is trapping the puck with his body, and that uses your arms to trap teh puck so there is no rebound and if you can keep your stick on the ice while trapping the puck in your body than you are super human.

Other than that I understand what you are saying, but of course roli has problems in his game, every goalie does. If he didn't he would be perfect and getting shutouts every game.

Kung Pow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 09:53 AM
  #17
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
Exactly. I'm quite aware of the butterfly block and it is proper technique when guys are in tight. Thing is, Roloson's arms are at his side almost permanently. Trust me, I've gone through highlights of every single game excluding January, it gets quite common and evident that this is true. If you don't want to take my word for it you can go through 35 games of highlights yourself..
They are when he goes down and it is clear the puck is staying down low, the shot has come almost all of the time. There is no problem with that if that is what he feels comfortable with it added to that like people have said already he is forcing the guys to pick corners and obviously that is not happening that much as you yourself have said most of his goals are 5 hole. Added to that watch his gloves when the shots are going high from further out - they usually stay up where they are supose to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
No? Goalie Coaches, especially John and his instructors at least while I was there, don't rag on goalies who don't have their stick blade on the ice? When its up in the air pointlessly? That's ballocks
What are you watching of you see his stick in the air ? that is just nonsense that he has his stick in the air, his fault is when he is in the block is he has his blocker turned too much and it is not covering the 5 hole. Added to that if you saw where I put the goalie coaches comment it was after your point about him going into the block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post



That's a whole lot of flare then Roloson (see pictures in original post). And if you read my original post I strongly emphasized his stick positioning as oppose to the flare of his butterfly, I barely even touched on the flare of his butterfly.




That is not alot of flair, his butterfly wideness is a result of him having his knees apart, his pads are nearly straight back not angled out to the sides and he has ALWAYS been like that. Roloson keeps his knees together and the pads are angled out somewhat




Loungo does have a good butterfly but he does not utilize it very well or very much as he drops straight to his knees without flaring out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
Point taken, it does take years to work on your flexibility and I guess that does start young. But again, if you read my original post I think its quite clear I am emphasizing more on his stick positioning more then anything else. Pretty much all of what I said came down to his stick positioning.
No you made it a point to talk about his butterfly not being good as well as stick discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemmer Time View Post
Let me ask you about this glaring stat, 20+% of the goals Roli has let in have gone in five-hole. That's quite a stat and I don't think it should be ignored.

Tell me this how many of those goals is the puck on the ice when he is beat, a lot of time that puck is a little off the ice just above the stick blade, which is a very difficult save to make.


Last edited by gr8haluschak: 01-15-2007 at 06:15 PM.
gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 10:03 AM
  #18
callighenfan
H.O.N.P.E.D.
 
callighenfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,278
vCash: 500
I just have to say what a great thread this is. I doubt you would get this depth of debate on any other team's board. Please, carry on.

callighenfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 12:53 PM
  #19
Ti-girl
Registered User
 
Ti-girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Merida, Mexico
Country: Mexico
Posts: 7,913
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Ti-girl Send a message via Yahoo to Ti-girl
Just my .00002 cents, but you do know that Roloson was a standup goalie until he was with Buffalo, right?

__________________
"I channeled my inner Morneau, took the stick and hit the mother****** to the moooon!"
Ti-girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 03:22 PM
  #20
Matty31
Registered User
 
Matty31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 481
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Matty31
What Roli needs are those pads with extra height like Henrik Lundqvist so that the 5 hole is covered up when he goes down!


Matty31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 04:22 PM
  #21
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty31 View Post
What Roli needs are those pads with extra height like Henrik Lundqvist so that the 5 hole is covered up when he goes down!

What is the point of having the extra inches when Roli does not have the flexibility to effectively cheat with them. If he had more hip flexibility like Henrik does and can get more flare then that extra height becomes more benificial since he would would be able to get away with not keeping his knees together since the pads would cover that, If he used a Vaughn pad he may be able to get away with the cheating. Added to that tall pads can be a hinderance as well since if you pinch your knees together in your stance then it will prevent you from getting all the way down. Finally the issue here is not the pads covering the net it is the fact that sometimes he does not have stick in the proper place but like I said as well a lot of his goals are when the guy does put the puck off the ice just above the stick blade and that is a damn near impossible save.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 05:32 PM
  #22
dharmaboy
Registered User
 
dharmaboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 206
vCash: 500
I agree with willyjagr. I think that the butterfly today is not meant to just take up space and look big but to be a solid wall behind a shot and that means tucking in your elbows to prevent the dreaded 7Hole shot. I have had many scored on me because my blocker was not far ahead enough on me.

Roloson does let a ton in, I wonder if he needs to change his stance to something a bit lower, or even gain an extra inch on his paddle. I found switching to a long paddle helped prevent may of these goals from going in.

what you say willyjagr?

dharmaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 06:14 PM
  #23
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmaboy View Post
I agree with willyjagr. I think that the butterfly today is not meant to just take up space and look big but to be a solid wall behind a shot and that means tucking in your elbows to prevent the dreaded 7Hole shot. I have had many scored on me because my blocker was not far ahead enough on me.

Roloson does let a ton in, I wonder if he needs to change his stance to something a bit lower, or even gain an extra inch on his paddle. I found switching to a long paddle helped prevent may of these goals from going in.

what you say willyjagr?
he is already plenty low in his stance, I mean he is about 1/2 - 2/3s of his actual height when he is in his stance, added to that with his lack of flexibility in the hips getting lower by widening his legs. Changing his paddle probably will have very little effect since it is where his stick blade is, which is not infront of his 5 hole. Added to that blocking is a tactic you use in a save - there is a right and wrong time to use it, that is what Giguere's main problem was last year.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 06:23 PM
  #24
iceman_88888888
Registered User
 
iceman_88888888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 218
vCash: 500
you're my boy hemmer time! i've been saying exactly what you've said in this post for however long now and i'll be referring them to your post. roloson's style is far from perfect and he is very lucky sometimes to even make a save doing what he does. he flops to his knees and doesn't know what to do with the rest of his body.
i nearly flipped out on roli when he let that phaneuf pp goal in in the last battle of alberta and i had some friends say i'm blind cuz he's coming off the post but from the in-net cam, you can see his stick is way out of position and you can see his skates pointing into the net rather than out towards each post.
anyways, here's hoping he gets smart and pete peeters helps him out a little and we get on a huge roll for the next month and a half.

iceman_88888888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2007, 06:31 PM
  #25
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,199
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman_88888888 View Post
you're my boy hemmer time! i've been saying exactly what you've said in this post for however long now and i'll be referring them to your post. roloson's style is far from perfect and he is very lucky sometimes to even make a save doing what he does. he flops to his knees and doesn't know what to do with the rest of his body.i nearly flipped out on roli when he let that phaneuf pp goal in in the last battle of alberta and i had some friends say i'm blind cuz he's coming off the post but from the in-net cam, you can see his stick is way out of position and you can see his skates pointing into the net rather than out towards each post.
anyways, here's hoping he gets smart and pete peeters helps him out a little and we get on a huge roll for the next month and a half.
You would have had credibility if you did not write that part - tell me how does he not know what he is doing with his body, as i and MANY other has already pointed out he is doing exactly what you are supoe to be doing and that is eliminating holes, when the play is in tight you tighten up and eliminate the 6 and 7 holes becuase that is the only place you can score. As stated before Roli's one fault is his stick sometimes gets out of position but even still the way his pads are his thigh gaurds usually prevents the puck from going in.

On the Phaneuf shot if he lead with his stick into the save then yes chances are he would have got it but it can alse be said that he was beat when he could not intecept that pass from behind the net because when you hug your post you wrap your stick around to go for the interception and where Dion was you have to be very quick to get your stick back to the 5 hole.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:55 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.