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Old
01-21-2007, 06:41 PM
  #26
barrytrotzsneck
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I agree with some elements of what you're saying, dul, but disagree on at least one thing: erat isn't better on the PP than legwand. Erat's overhandling, time and time again, sees him cough the puck up. his decision making isn't too great, either.

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01-21-2007, 06:43 PM
  #27
nine_inch_fang
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I don't think I am the one that stated I would eat my foot as an insult to someone. Backhanded compliments are just that, backhanded. I could care less if you want to hide your head in the sand and bash players it just makes you look foolish.

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01-21-2007, 07:17 PM
  #28
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just b/c legwand doesnt have a howitzer for the pp, doesnt mean his vision, playmaking abilities and dangling ability cant be used. He is weaker on the boards but.... they have the man advantage, get legwand on the pt or high slot to move the puck around to find the sniper aka, kariya or sully or radulov... your pick. good playmakers are just as important on the pp as snipers. if a sniper cant find the room to setup properly then his shooting ability wont be used to its max.

he may not be pp1 but he should be out for pp2 for sure. if he was on any other team he would be pp1. Nashville has just lots of options.

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01-21-2007, 07:34 PM
  #29
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by littleguybigstik View Post
just b/c legwand doesnt have a howitzer for the pp, doesnt mean his vision, playmaking abilities and dangling ability cant be used. He is weaker on the boards but.... they have the man advantage, get legwand on the pt or high slot to move the puck around to find the sniper aka, kariya or sully or radulov... your pick. good playmakers are just as important on the pp as snipers. if a sniper cant find the room to setup properly then his shooting ability wont be used to its max.
A Kariya-Legwand-Sullivan would have one major weakness... No one to get in front of the net, and no strength what so ever. That's why Trotz inserted Hartnell.

I agree that good playmakers are important. But, I consider Kariya, Sullivan, Dumont, Erat, Zidlicky, and Timonen so called "playmakers". Not saying there isn't room for improvement in these guys, but I think our powerplay weaknesses are being overstated. Even if we had the 4th best PP in the league (19%), we'd have 5 more goals. Hardly "running away with the league".

I'll eat my foot if any of our young players (with possible exception of Radulov) score over 100 points.

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01-21-2007, 09:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Even if we had the 4th best PP in the league (19%), we'd have 5 more goals. Hardly "running away with the league".
Nice (mis)use of statistics.

5 extra goals could be huge. If well placed, it could easily be 6 extra points. I'd consider a 9-point league lead with a game in hand running away at this point in the season.

And those five goals can be so much more than 5 goals. They can change momentum, chase goalies, and do a variety of things that extend beyond the addition of 5 goals.

Of course, if we had PP scoring on par with our even strength (i.e. #2 in the league), we'd have at least 15 extra goals and around 23%. Our power play has the pieces to be that good. And that was my original point.

We are CLEARLY underperforming on the PP. We can argue as to the extent. But I would argue that it's not unreasonable to hope your overall PP ranking matches that of your offensive ranking (both even strength and overall). There's no way you can honestly say I'm asking too much of our PP if I expect them to be at or near 2nd in the league. The teams around that mark don't have any more weapons than we do.

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01-21-2007, 10:27 PM
  #31
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Both of you are speculating fairly heavily...of course those goals may not have meant anything, and of course they could have meant something....depending on about 27 other factors. Methinks some folks are just prone to arguing...all in good fun, of course. These arguments are much more fun when you can say "if we had 6 more points we would be in 1st by a larger margin," rather than, "6 more points would have us in the 8th spot" and so on.

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01-21-2007, 10:48 PM
  #32
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Nice (mis)use of statistics.

5 extra goals could be huge. If well placed, it could easily be 6 extra points. I'd consider a 9-point league lead with a game in hand running away at this point in the season.

And those five goals can be so much more than 5 goals. They can change momentum, chase goalies, and do a variety of things that extend beyond the addition of 5 goals.

Of course, if we had PP scoring on par with our even strength (i.e. #2 in the league), we'd have at least 15 extra goals and around 23%. Our power play has the pieces to be that good. And that was my original point.

We are CLEARLY underperforming on the PP. We can argue as to the extent. But I would argue that it's not unreasonable to hope your overall PP ranking matches that of your offensive ranking (both even strength and overall). There's no way you can honestly say I'm asking too much of our PP if I expect them to be at or near 2nd in the league. The teams around that mark don't have any more weapons than we do.
Or those 5 extra goals could mean absolutely nothing. At best, we're talking about a point or two.

Second, I disagree, I don't think we have the weapons of the top PP teams. We don't have a true superstar who can dominate the PP. We have a lot of really good pieces, but no dominant pieces on the PP. Having a lot of really good pieces is why we are so good at ES.

But, we don't have a Thornton or Crosby or Niedermayer/Progner/Selanee or Sakic (etc, etc). Kariya would be the closest, but he's no Thornton or Crosby or Savard (pp genuis). Just look at the stats.. our biggest point getter on the PP is Timonen (17 points). HE'S TIED FOR 60TH IN THE LEAGUE IN POWERPLAY POINTS!

Thornton leads the league in Powerplay Points. Not surprising, SJ leads the league in PP%. Who is our dominant PP figure(s)? All the top PPs have dominant figures. We have a guy in the top 60. Honestly, I don't think we have the tools to have the league's best powerplay. We just don't have that dominant PP guy.


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01-22-2007, 03:23 AM
  #33
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I think one reason Leggy isn't used on the PP much is that his faceoff % is so low (I think pred303 said this one time and I agree with it.) . He's just not great on faceoffs. Some games he'll win 50-60% but most games it's about 30-40%. I don't think Trotz trusts Leggy to win the draw in the offensive zone to control the play, without having to go chase the puck and kill off about 20-30 seconds. Even on PK, I think Fiddler or Nichol ususally take the faceoffs even with Leggy out there. That's the one area I wish he would really work on.


However, Legwand is having a great year and I'm happy. I don't have to listen to all the "trade Legwand, he's a bum" crap that people have been spewing over the years. The record speaks for itself for when he's in the lineup and not. He brings good things to the team. And this year, not only is he scoring more, but his defense has greatly improved, too. He was always known for being good defensively (although, not according to Calgary) but now look, he's tied for first among ALL NHL forwards with a +26 (stupid Vanek had to tie Legwand). Lately he's been standing in front of/directly to the side of the net a lot more and he's being rewarded with goals/points. I think someone said 21 points in his last 16 games.

Yea for the hattrick! Finally! And congrats to setting the franchise record in goals. He could be an all-star!! Ok maybe not, but he's playing great. I just hope he keeps it going all year!!


Last edited by sparkle twin: 01-23-2007 at 01:56 PM.
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01-22-2007, 04:50 AM
  #34
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I think the reason he isn't playing on the powerplay is he's used so much at es and on the pk. He's at the top each night on toi, so the time would have to be cut from somewhere else.

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01-22-2007, 10:58 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Or those 5 extra goals could mean absolutely nothing. At best, we're talking about a point or two.

Second, I disagree, I don't think we have the weapons of the top PP teams. We don't have a true superstar who can dominate the PP. We have a lot of really good pieces, but no dominant pieces on the PP. Having a lot of really good pieces is why we are so good at ES.

But, we don't have a Thornton or Crosby or Niedermayer/Progner/Selanee or Sakic (etc, etc). Kariya would be the closest, but he's no Thornton or Crosby or Savard (pp genuis). Just look at the stats.. our biggest point getter on the PP is Timonen (17 points). HE'S TIED FOR 60TH IN THE LEAGUE IN POWERPLAY POINTS!

Thornton leads the league in Powerplay Points. Not surprising, SJ leads the league in PP%. Who is our dominant PP figure(s)? All the top PPs have dominant figures. We have a guy in the top 60. Honestly, I don't think we have the tools to have the league's best powerplay. We just don't have that dominant PP guy.
Explain Montreal? Are you going to sit there and tell me that Montreal's pointmen are that much more impressive than ours? Their best PP player is Sheldon Souray, who has a great shot, but isn't what I would call a great passer. He's hardly dominant. And after Sheldon, their cast is no more impressive than ours. And we have substantially more depth. In the rest of the top 10, you have Boston, Florida, and New Jersey. All teams ahead of us. All with far inferior pieces on the power play.

In short, the whole "it takes a dominant player to have a great PP" is crap. Obviously it helps. But every year, there are a handful of teams at or around 20% who have no such dominant player. And many of those teams simply don't have the cast of players that we have.

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01-22-2007, 01:31 PM
  #36
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Preds system has the points spread around more than other PP systems. I can't tell if that is by design or the fact we have had injuries, or what.
Arnott and Hartnell each have 9 PP goals. Sullivan, Erat, J.P., PK, Timonen, and Arnott all have > 12 PP points.

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01-22-2007, 05:07 PM
  #37
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Again here you are with the eat your foot comments. These are the same comments that you made last year about Legwand playing to the level he is now. People like you are all the same, you sit there and bash someone, if they do flop you say "told you so" but if they don't you just say well it's about time. Maybe, you should try admitting you were wrong and eat some of the snide remarks you have made in the past to other posters.

As to Legwand on the powerplay: I do think our powerplay will perform the way we want if we had PK, Legwand, Hartnell as the forwards and Suter, Weber as the points. If Trotz would just give this combo some time to gel it would work. Legwand was able to supplant Arnott on the top line ES I don't see any real reason not to try this for a while.

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01-22-2007, 08:42 PM
  #38
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by nine_inch_fang View Post
Again here you are with the eat your foot comments. These are the same comments that you made last year about Legwand playing to the level he is now. People like you are all the same, you sit there and bash someone, if they do flop you say "told you so" but if they don't you just say well it's about time. Maybe, you should try admitting you were wrong and eat some of the snide remarks you have made in the past to other posters.
Still trying to pick a fight, eh?

I've given Legwand nothing but credit for his improvement. There are no "it's about time!" comments anywhere to be seen.

Yes, I criticized a lot of Legwand's game in the past. And, I was quick to compliment him when he improved them. Want proof? Why don't you go read my first post in this thread. Nothing but compliments to the dude.

Yes, I'm not afraid to give my opinion as to why I think Trotz isn't giving him 1st line PP time. The point about his faceoff woes is also a very good one.

As for the "Legwand is a 100+ point franchise center" bandwagon that's riding through here... I'll pass. And like I said, I'll eat my foot if it happens. It was simply a joke man (kinda at myself). It's not a death sentence to Legwand.


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01-22-2007, 08:44 PM
  #39
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Explain Montreal? Are you going to sit there and tell me that Montreal's pointmen are that much more impressive than ours? Their best PP player is Sheldon Souray, who has a great shot, but isn't what I would call a great passer. He's hardly dominant. And after Sheldon, their cast is no more impressive than ours. And we have substantially more depth. In the rest of the top 10, you have Boston, Florida, and New Jersey. All teams ahead of us. All with far inferior pieces on the power play.
Saying these teams have "far inferior" pieces is very subjective. Souray and Markov are arguable the best PP pointman combo in the league today. Guys like Koivu and Kovalev are also know for being great on the PP.

Speaking of Boston... Last year, they were 26th in the league. They are now 4th. Biggest reason? They got a dominant powerplay specialist in Marc Savard. Savard has been at the top of the league in PPP the last several years. He is a magician on the PP. Yes, better than any PP player we have. And look at the Sharks... Thornton simply turned their PP into a dominant one.

We can sit here and compare everyone of our players to NJ or whatever, and say we should be as good as New Jersey. But what's the point? They are .08% better than us. If we prodcued at their rate, we have 1.9 more goals this year.

I think we have a pretty good PP. Of course, there is room to get better. Meanwhile, it isn't hurting us that bad. I don't "expect" us to have a dominant, top-ranked PP, because don't think we have the dominant PP combos.

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01-23-2007, 08:33 AM
  #40
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01-23-2007, 08:38 AM
  #41
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01-23-2007, 09:03 AM
  #42
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My only fear with our PP is that teams that have seen it before, tend to shut it down. Come playoff time, this could be bad.

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01-23-2007, 12:10 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Saying these teams have "far inferior" pieces is very subjective. Souray and Markov are arguable the best PP pointman combo in the league today. Guys like Koivu and Kovalev are also know for being great on the PP.
One could argue that Zidlicky and Timonen were considered the top pairing at one point. What happened? We could go on and on about cause and effect. Are Souray and Markov really the best, or are they a part of a group that is just a more effective power play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
We can sit here and compare everyone of our players to NJ or whatever, and say we should be as good as New Jersey. But what's the point? They are .08% better than us. If we prodcued at their rate, we have 1.9 more goals this year.
I don't want to be on par with Jersey. Our talent suggests that we should be better. My whole point in this is that we are underperforming and that teams with inferior pieces (I think far inferior was an exaggerration) are outperforming or matching us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I think we have a pretty good PP. Of course, there is room to get better. Meanwhile, it isn't hurting us that bad. I don't "expect" us to have a dominant, top-ranked PP, because don't think we have the dominant PP combos.
I think you simply overestimate the importance of a dominant PP player. And your argument is unstoppable because you can weasle out of every comment. All really good power plays should have a guy or two with great numbers. So you'll call them "dominant" players. And any power play that is less than stellar generally won't have players that put up big numbers. So they won't have "dominant" players.

But how dominant is a dominant player? Could it be that while he contributes to a large part of the success of the power play, he is also a significant benefactor of others who contribute significant shares too?

I contend that schemetics play a large role in all of this. Hence why teams with what I feel to be lesser pieces still manage to match or best our power play numbers. And why we actually score less PPG per game against teams in our division than we do against teams outside our division despite every team in our division having a mediocre or worse power play. I think this familiarity works against us because teams appear to be better able to adjust to our PP than we do to their PK. This opinion is also supported in game when our PP really suffers as the game moves along.

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01-23-2007, 02:59 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
One could argue that Zidlicky and Timonen were considered the top pairing at one point. What happened? We could go on and on about cause and effect. Are Souray and Markov really the best, or are they a part of a group that is just a more effective power play.


I think part of it was the introduction of Paul Kariya as the QB on the halfboards, rather than letting Timonen QB from the point. I'm not worried about seeing it shut down in the playoffs, because good\well-coached teams already know what to look for with us. It used to be the cross-crease pass from Kariya to Sullivan, now it's that long-bomb crosspass to Hartnell on the far post, who jams it in...or Sullivan firing it out to Arnott at the top of the circle for a one-timer. For the passing ability we have, we're not so much about moving the puck as we are playing catch until we see the opportunity for one of three or four set plays. It's thought-out, but it makes it pretty predictable, and I think it's one of the biggest weaknesses that we have right now...and I've been a little disappointed not to see it adjusted, throughout the season and really going back to last.

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01-24-2007, 07:51 PM
  #45
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It's been running better with Suter and Weber, IMHO, 2 guys looking to get it on net.

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01-24-2007, 08:03 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I will eat my foot if Legwand ever scores 100 points.
I going to hold you to that.

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01-26-2007, 02:11 PM
  #47
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Good stuff on Legwand; good to see him having some statistical success. He's been a good player on this team for several years so it's good to see him get some positive recognition.

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