Simply put the issue comes down to the right players in the right roles.
The first line is an example of finding players who compliment each other and are thus more than the some of their parts.
Every line after that is disjointed and a perfect example of taking players and trying to "make" them click.
The second line doesn't have a playmaking center for it's two shoot first wingers. So in order to remedy that, the Rangers put a third line center who ideally puts up as many assists as he does goals.
From that the third line now has wingers who can't generate something because their center is playing on the second line. So now you have a 4th line center playing on the third line who doesn't help their cause.
That now trickles down to the fourth line where you have energy guys who don't have that center to come them down and allow them to play a slightly different game.
That is compounded by a defense that has too many #4-6 defenseman who play too similar of games. This was not going to be solved by signing a 33 year old bottom end defenseman. I still don't know what everyone was expecting in Cullen and Ward but they are playing just about how they always have, the problem is that they aren't necessarily what the team needed to really upgrade.
Finally at the end of the day, goaltending has not been up to snuff. Lundqvist has not been the same since the Olympics over a year ago. Say what you will about the defense, it's been very poor, but at the end of the day Lundqvist has also been inconsistent himself and is not stealing very many games.
Simply put the issue comes down to the right players in the right roles.
The first line is an example of finding players who compliment each other and are thus more than the some of their parts.
Every line after that is disjointed and a perfect example of taking players and trying to "make" them click.
The second line doesn't have a playmaking center for it's two shoot first wingers. So in order to remedy that, the Rangers put a third line center who ideally puts up as many assists as he does goals.
From that the third line now has wingers who can't generate something because their center is playing on the second line. So now you have a 4th line center playing on the third line who doesn't help their cause.
That now trickles down to the fourth line where you have energy guys who don't have that center to come them down and allow them to play a slightly different game.
That is compounded by a defense that has too many #4-6 defenseman who play too similar of games. This was not going to be solved by signing a 33 year old bottom end defenseman. I still don't know what everyone was expecting in Cullen and Ward but they are playing just about how they always have, the problem is that they aren't necessarily what the team needed to really upgrade.
Finally at the end of the day, goaltending has not been up to snuff. Lundqvist has not been the same since the Olympics over a year ago. Say what you will about the defense, it's been very poor, but at the end of the day Lundqvist has also been inconsistent himself and is not stealing very many games.
Exactly. So many holes on this team. Expectations coming in were way to high from some of you.
Exactly. So many holes on this team. Expectations coming in were way to high from some of you.
Well I still have to say that I really dont think this team has MANY holes so to speak.
I do think they have two really big holes that let in way too much water and thus sink the ship.
I really think if this had gotten a second line center and a higher end defenseman that things would be a lot different.
But unfortunatly (and this goes back to what I stress about asset management) things were not managed very well.
The money locked into a mediocre defense REALLY hurts this team and prohibits them from getting players they should.
I think if you add a guy like Chara or Pronger the defense falls in line behind it with Tyutin, Roszival and others falling into roles that are more to their ability.
I think if you get an actual second line center, the other lines fall in line as well.
But one thing this season also stresses is raising the bar for players. I beat this drum a lot and it's probably the single topic I get into the most debates about but it is really important to UNDERSTAND and ultimately ACCEPT what a player is and what a player isn't.
But instead we see a lot of unfair and really unjustified expectations that really don't have a lot of basis to them.
A few examples include thinking Shanahan could score 50 or 60 goals at 37/38 years old.
Thinking Cullen at 30 was suddenly going to become a 35 goal, 70 point player.
Thinking Ward was more than a nice 5 or 6 defenseman or was ever any more than that under the best of circumstances.
Things like this will set you up for disappointment EVERY time. There is a fine line between optimism and realism, pessimism and acknowledgment. As you said, there were expectations that just weren't very fair from the outset.
Unfortunatly it seems the board balances itself between the younger, optimistic extreme and the older, pessimistic extreme. Like politics, a lot of the middle ground often gets lost in the struggle.
Good Point. They were supposed to suck last year. This year they're just mediocre. I can't be too pissed. After all they're just a damned hockey team. I really believe that if they stick with this rebuild thing they will be a very good team some day. But that's just the hopeless romantic in me talking.
But considering the kids from the "Great Purge" are just now turning 21 and at max about 45 games into their pro careers in most cases, I don't know what a lot of people expected.
Good points in this thread EDGE.
These kids are on the way up. HFD have started to rock lately, and have a extremely young lineup. Korpedo, Callahan, Pyatt, Dubinsky and Co. have real potentail. Staal is a great prospect. All these guys in our system are hardworking kids with great attitude. Thats our future.
And for all of thoose who say that the rebuild is over and stuff like that. Sykora really wanted to resign here. Rucinsky wanted a 2 year contract. Both these guys could have been had with pretty good contracts, two years and less then 3m per season. But none were resigned. Add thoose two to this team, and we would be allot more solid this season. Like
But that would also have ment that gooing into next season, if Shanahan were resigned, there would basically have been no room at all for the kids. At any given time, there is also a chance that a Joe Thornton will become available. JJ is only a stop gap. If we brought thoose players in, we would have had no room when a team like the Bruins declare that they have had it with their Thornton.
That for me is if anything proof of how this team is still building for the future. We gave up a chance to ice a pretty good and entertaining team, but with no real chance in the PO's to build a core with our own kids.
I personally think thats the best way to go. And thats the reason I am supporting Renney. I think, or I know, that Tom got a big say in how this organization is run. When I hear Maloney, its like he is repeating something Renney have said before to him. Slats have defenitly backed down. Before "the great purge", it were Renney who talked about it, who pushed for it. It were Renney who talked about getting the kids with the right attitude. It were he who explained the strategy. If Renney would have said that we must get a good D, go after someone like Jovanovski hard, and would have asked for Rucinsky, I am sure he would have gotten thoose two, and it would have made his job allot easier, but we would have had allot less flexability the next two season.
We don't have good chemistry with some of our players. Doesn't anybody notice that?
I think the chemistry comes down to construction.
Guys like Prucha and Shanny need to play with a playmaker, not a guy like Cullen.
Guys on the third line need someone who can bring some speed/scoring, not more defensivly responsible but offensivly challanged centers.
On defense you can't have keep expected every defenseman to play not one but two spots higher than they should.
I think the Rangers are really trying to force something that is not going to work and from that you have lines that don't particularly bring out the best in its players.
Guys like Prucha and Shanny need to play with a playmaker, not a guy like Cullen.
Guys on the third line need someone who can bring some speed/scoring, not more defensivly responsible but offensivly challanged centers.
On defense you can't have keep expected every defenseman to play not one but two spots higher than they should.
I think the Rangers are really trying to force something that is not going to work and from that you have lines that don't particularly bring out the best in its players.
Thats it in a nutshell.
As good as they were last year in assembling a team that surprised people, this year they just failed in that regard. If I had one criticism to make against Sather, it's that he acquires players for roles that take them away from their core competency. This leaves Renney left grasping at straws. Finally Jagr is still the heart of the team, and with him not at 100% the Rangers are relatively easy to contain.
As good as they were last year in assembling a team that surprised people, this year they just failed in that regard. If I had one criticism to make against Sather, it's that he acquires players for roles that take them away from their core competency. This leaves Renney left grasping at straws. Finally Jagr is still the heart of the team, and with him not at 100% the Rangers are relatively easy to contain.
Well I think there are several criticisms I have right now.
1. Sather/Maloney/Management have constructed a flawed team with big holes. Not numerous holes, but big holes. Simply put they have overestimated some players on this roster.
2. Renney has not helped his cause with a sometimes thick head and stubborness to not move on from an idea that isn't working.
3. Personally (though there was little way around it), I cannot see this team winning with Jagr as its leader. Jagr has never lead anyone anywhere and already not that the warm welcome has worn off we are seeing a lot of classic Jagr.
Factor in all 3 situations and you have something that is not functioning properly.
Well I think there are several criticisms I have right now.
1. Sather/Maloney/Management have constructed a flawed team with big holes. Not numerous holes, but big holes. Simply put they have overestimated some players on this roster.
2. Renney has not helped his cause with a sometimes thick head and stubborness to not move on from an idea that isn't working.
3. Personally (though there was little way around it), I cannot see this team winning with Jagr as its leader. Jagr has never lead anyone anywhere and already not that the warm welcome has worn off we are seeing a lot of classic Jagr.
Factor in all 3 situations and you have something that is not functioning properly.
I wrote something similar a few weeks ago and not panned for it regarding Jagr's attitude. People I think fail to understand that he has had problems before when he was not happy at every single stop he has made. At this point in time I would trade him and Nylander if things do not turn around fairly quickly. When this team is truly ready to compete Jagr will be retired or playing in Russia. So my loyalty to him is based on what you have done for me lately attitude. It is not like he is a long time ranger. If tradable and I don't know about his contract if he has a no trade or not, I would target someone who has a excellent chance and who is loaded with young talent.
Guys like Prucha and Shanny need to play with a playmaker, not a guy like Cullen.
Guys on the third line need someone who can bring some speed/scoring, not more defensivly responsible but offensivly challanged centers.
On defense you can't have keep expected every defenseman to play not one but two spots higher than they should.
I think the Rangers are really trying to force something that is not going to work and from that you have lines that don't particularly bring out the best in its players.
Shanny & Prucha I think have some chemistry but as you and everyone else understands, lacks a play making center. Renney is tiring me with his forcing players in to roles they are not suited for. Immonen is the kind of center they need, yet refuse to play. Yannic Perrault is no faster, yet has had a long career and doing well for the Great One after no one wanted him earlier this year.
From the way some of you comment about this team in GDTs and other threads, you make it seem like this team is SUPPOSED to be better than they are playing. Frankly, what has this team showed you to lead you to believe that they are better than this?
This team is nothing more than a disorganized, lifeless group of skillfull, soft veterans, and a handful of guys who COULD be good in the right system playing the correct role (Cullen, Ward, Betts, Hossa etc.)
I'm not exactly sure what you are all expecting out of this team...but what they are showing now, and what they showed at the end of last season, seems to be what this team IS.
Discuss.
Name one team that has won with one quality center and only one line. Therein lies the problem. Cullen is not, never has been a 2nd line center. Once the 2nd line center question mark is resolved, many of the issues on this team will also start to be resolved by slotting them in to their proper roles. The backline is another issue.
I would not over pay for a #2 center. That means I would not part with Prucha or any of our other top prospects.
Shanny & Prucha I think have some chemistry but as you and everyone else understands, lacks a play making center. Renney is tiring me with his forcing players in to roles they are not suited for. Immonen is the kind of center they need, yet refuse to play. Yannic Perrault is no faster, yet has had a long career and doing well for the Great One after no one wanted him earlier this year.
I think Cullen, Shanahan, Prucha just has too many shoot first pass second players on it to be successful.
As for Immonen, doesn't strike me as the answer and I personally have beaten my thoughts on the subject to death. For me that's not even on the radar at this point.
And Straka and Nylander and pass first and second shoot third players. Maybe they should...switch...ahh, never mind. I'm just talking crazy.
Yeah, what kind of crazy are you talking about?
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"Of course giving Sather cap space is like giving teenagers whiskey and car keys." - SBOB "Watching Sather build a team is like watching a blind man with no fingers trying to put together an elaborate puzzle." - Shadowtron
Sestito still on the make a wish tour. - rholt168
So what!!!!! What first round pick in the last 10 years has actually been good for the Rangers. Wow, Im glad the Rangers sucked 3 years ago then we could draft the great Jessiman. Nonsense, every kid that gets drafted by the Rangers cringes because if they are semi-good they know they will never be given a chance to succeed, because the Rangers are a WIN NOW franchise and can't waste their time with the growing pains of young kids. Boy and glad we like to win!
It's been detailed in another thread what the Rangers have done with 1st round choices over the last few years. Jessiman hasn't panned out, and not all 1sts do. Blackburn got hurt, and you can't do much about that. Korpikoski is still developing, Brendl is a player that was highly touted in '99 (and his value was increased because the draft below him was thin), so the Rangers took a chance and again, it didn't pan out, and that was also another regime in power (Neil Smith). At the time, I have to say I loved the agressiveness to move up in a draft and pick a player who a lot of scouts were high on at the time, but he busted. What can you do?
I'd rather have the 1st rounders to draft, even if the recent history of 1sts in this organization has been awful. One of them has to pan out eventually.
And Straka and Nylander and pass first and second shoot third players. Maybe they should...switch...ahh, never mind. I'm just talking crazy.
Part of me wonders how much of that is due to Jagr. Because we all know how much of a point he's made it to emphasize that he feels comfortable with his linemates and that he didn't click with someone else, etc.
I kind of see the issue as being two-fold.
You have a star player who the slightest change sends him into a coocoon and you have a coach that is unwilling/unable to take stand on certain issues.
This is a big reason why I am still not sold on Jagr being the guy you actually build a franchise around. I didn't see it work in Washington, I don't see it working long-term here.
Part of me wonders how much of that is due to Jagr. Because we all know how much of a point he's made it to emphasize that he feels comfortable with his linemates and that he didn't click with someone else, etc.
I kind of see the issue as being two-fold.
You have a star player who the slightest change sends him into a coocoon and you have a coach that is unwilling/unable to take stand on certain issues.
This is a big reason why I am still not sold on Jagr being the guy you actually build a franchise around. I didn't see it work in Washington, I don't see it working long-term here.
We agree on the issue of Jagr. As great as he is it's time to explore sending him to a Cup contender willing to part with some good young talent. No need to watch the inevitable Jagr sulking scheduled to arrive momentarily. If you can't win with him as your stud you dump him. Your stud has to be someone who can carry you and toe the party line. Jagr is drifting further and further from there.
Who said the Rangers are actually building the franchise around a soon to be 35 year old Jagr who is essentially a hold the fort player?Rangers management was surprised at how well the team performed last season and they still view the team as a work in progess.Put a competitive product on the ice without committing to Zdeno Chara type cap busting contracts while at the same time keeping the eye on the future.It's a delicate balance
Who said the Rangers are actually building the franchise around a soon to be 35 year old Jagr who is essentially a hold the fort player?Rangers management was surprised at how well the team performed last season and they still view the team as a work in progess.Put a competitive product on the ice without committing to Zdeno Chara type cap busting contracts while at the same time keeping the eye on the future.It's a delicate balance
We agree on the issue of Jagr. As great as he is it's time to explore sending him to a Cup contender willing to part with some good young talent. No need to watch the inevitable Jagr sulking scheduled to arrive momentarily. If you can't win with him as your stud you dump him. Your stud has to be someone who can carry you and toe the party line. Jagr is drifting further and further from there.
Jagr to me is always like a ticking time bomb. At some point, sooner or later it almost seems inevitable they loses interest and starts to lose focus.
For as much as I've been wowed by him during his career and his first season in NY, it seems almost inevitable.
