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Old
01-23-2007, 01:55 AM
  #1
JMMR
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Habs Cap Is My Math Correct.

The Habs have a lot more room under the cap than they have let on.

All numbers are approximates not to the exact penny.

Dandenault, Bouillon and Higgins missed considerable time and Begin is still out.
That means the portion of their salary will not be counted against the cap.

So by my calculations the Habs look something like this.

At the beginning of the year the Habs had a cap hit of $42,912,000
Dandenault cap hit is $1.725mil. Per game that is $21,036 He missed 12 games = $252,432.00
Bouillon cap hit $1.875mil. Per game that is $22,865He missed 19 games = $434,435.00
Begin cap hit 1.057mil. Per game that is $12,890He has missed 20 games (thus far) = $257,800.00

Bringing the Canadiens cap hit to = 42,912,000-944,667= 41,967,333

The Habs also had
M. Grabovski up for three games $25,609
Also Max Lapierre has now been up for 13 games $92,479 (thus far)

$41,967,333+$25,609+$92,479 =42,085,421

Assuming Lapierre remains with the team for the rest of the season the Habs will have to add + $234,755.00.
But Begin could also be out the rest of the year and Murray could get sent down any time.
Murray -$241,463.00
Begin -$425,378.00

This means the Habs cap hit could be as low as $41,653,335 or as high as $42,987,017 but that would mean Murray Lapierre and Begin are all back after the All Star break and stick with the team until the Feb 27th trading deadline.

So here is the conclusion sorry for the long post.

Best case scenario and quite plausibly the Habs hit Feb. 27th with a cap hit near $42,000,000 leaving them $2,000,000 under the cap with 16 games remaining in the season. This means the Habs can acquire $10,250,000 worth of players which is if I say so quite a lot.

Worst case scenario the Habs come in around 43,000,000 with 16 games left and have 1,000,000 left for 16 games meaning they can acquire 5,125,000 which is not bad either.

The only issues is waiting until that very final day to make the trade, the earlier it is made the less space the Canadiens will have to work with.


Is my math correct?

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01-23-2007, 02:25 AM
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Well firstly salaries are paid per day, not per game. Secondly I'm pretty sure that player salaries on IR count unless you get a long-term injury exception.. but I could be mistaken. Irish Blues has the Habs with less than $1m in cap space (far different from your estimate).

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01-23-2007, 02:32 AM
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01-23-2007, 07:08 AM
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Another problem I see with this.

It's my understanding that no matter how much room a team has left, at no point can their total payroll be over the cap. Just because you have $5mil left doesn't mean you can add a $5mil guy.

I could be wrong, but it makes sense. Otherwise a team with a ton of cap room could literally add 3 or 4 $5mil guys for a playoff run. Grossly unfair.

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01-23-2007, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Well firstly salaries are paid per day, not per game. Secondly I'm pretty sure that player salaries on IR count unless you get a long-term injury exception.. but I could be mistaken. Irish Blues has the Habs with less than $1m in cap space (far different from your estimate).
I'm pretty sure you've got that right. The trouble is, I don't think the league or teams are very public in publishing who applies or is granted long-term injury exemptions.

IB has the habs with 716,995 in payroll room, which isn't a ton. But that is enough room to add (I'm just guessing here) like 2.5-3 million in salary at the deadline. Also keep in mind that Niinimaa is drawing a pretty big salary right now, and if he's removed by being waived or traded or whatever, the habs suddenly have enough cap space to add a 5 million dollar or so contract at the deadline, which isn't bad.

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01-23-2007, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
[b]I'm pretty sure you've got that right. The trouble is, I don't think the league or teams are very public in publishing who applies or is granted long-term injury exemptions.[b]

IB has the habs with 716,995 in payroll room, which isn't a ton. But that is enough room to add (I'm just guessing here) like 2.5-3 million in salary at the deadline. Also keep in mind that Niinimaa is drawing a pretty big salary right now, and if he's removed by being waived or traded or whatever, the habs suddenly have enough cap space to add a 5 million dollar or so contract at the deadline, which isn't bad.
I think that's correct too.

I just want to add that for Bouillon & Dandenault, regardless of whether or not they were on long-term IR (although I doubt Dandenault was placed on long term IR), their full salary now counts towards the cap since they're back.

All putting a player on long-term IR does is allow the team to go over the cap if adding players of salary equal or less than that player takes you over the cap - and only while the player is away (minimum is 10 games or 24 days for placing a player on long-term IR). It doesn't give any savings towards a team's payroll per se.

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01-23-2007, 08:39 AM
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So JMMR, to make adjustments to your calculations, you can't remove salary for the games missed by Bouillon, Dandenault, Begin.

Your math on Grabovski is correct I think.

For Lapierre, you have to count his entire salary from the first chunk of days he was called-up and sent down and add the full salary from when he was recently called-up until the end of the season (it would get truncated if he's sent down).

You'd have to add Kostitsyn for the few days he was up.

Murray's full salary still counts towards the cap since he's still on the roster. If he's sent down, the team would have savings equal to what they would have to pay him for the remainder of the season.

Also, as others pointed out, I think salary is paid on a daily basis and not per game - but someone would have to confirm that.

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01-23-2007, 08:49 AM
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i didnt know if you are in IR you dont get paid???
all these years i heard that you do get paid even if your in IR...

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01-23-2007, 08:53 AM
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i didnt know if you are in IR you dont get paid???
all these years i heard that you do get paid even if your in IR...
insurance

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01-23-2007, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ari1160 View Post
i didnt know if you are in IR you dont get paid???
all these years i heard that you do get paid even if your in IR...
I thought you still get paid if you are on the IR but it doesn't count against the cap hit?

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01-23-2007, 09:13 AM
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It is my understanding that if a player is out for 10 or more consecutive games his salary then does not count until his return. The Long term player injury exemption allows a team to be pro-active in not counting the salary against the cap and essentially knowingly go over it because they know a player won't return. Whereas without it you can only remove the salary from counting once you know the game has not been played (meaning you still cannot go over the cap number at that time, but it will lower your cap hit in the long run).

I will take a look at the CBA and try and find the section for you guys

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01-23-2007, 09:27 AM
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The Long term injury exception on the cap is ONLY for teams that are RIGHT at or near the salary cap. It's written on the NHL.com site in the CBA section. The Habs did not get any relief when any of our injured players went on IR because they are not close enough to the cap. You have to be like ~ 100 K (or even less) away from it to get that type of exception. NJ got it with Mogilny in training camp, in part because they were right at the cap. Buffalo are a team right near the cap that has Connolly on Long term IR and can use that exception when they call up Stafford, Paille and company.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Another problem I see with this.

It's my understanding that no matter how much room a team has left, at no point can their total payroll be over the cap. Just because you have $5mil left doesn't mean you can add a $5mil guy.

I could be wrong, but it makes sense. Otherwise a team with a ton of cap room could literally add 3 or 4 $5mil guys for a playoff run. Grossly unfair.
If you have 1 million in cap room at the deadline, that means you can add a player with an annual cap hit of 4 million at the deadline since 3/4's of the season (and a bit more I believe) is in the books.

750 K means you can add 3 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

2 millions means you can add 8 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

3 million means you can add 12 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

,etc

So technically, if you have 1 M in cap room and bring in a player with an annual cap hit of 4 m, you could have a ''total'' salary cap count of 47 M, but the team only paid 44 M because the player they acquired at the deadline had already seen 3/4's of his cap hit paid by his former team.

It's obvious the Habs will need to either a: trade Niinimaa (thank god he is expiring!) or b: waive Niinimaa in order to land a Forsberg type big fish. Or else it won't fit in.

However, let's not forgets Irish Blues' projection of 716K in payroll room projects Lapierre and Murray staying up with the big club the rest of the way. One could be sent down to open up more room.

BTW, on that Murray subject, my buddy told me he heard/read somewhere in the media that Murray does not count on the cap as long as the Habs scratch him and don't use him, since he cleared waivers. I haven't been able to see this confirmed, but it does make sense when you realise the Habs didn't send down Lapierre during this week off. Why pay Murray to do nothing AND keep Lapierre up during the week off? It could be because they are getting savings off of Murray's cap hit.


Last edited by Marc the Habs Fan: 01-23-2007 at 10:46 AM.
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Old
01-23-2007, 09:51 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHabsGO252006 View Post
It is my understanding that if a player is out for 10 or more consecutive games his salary then does not count until his return. The Long term player injury exemption allows a team to be pro-active in not counting the salary against the cap and essentially knowingly go over it because they know a player won't return. Whereas without it you can only remove the salary from counting once you know the game has not been played (meaning you still cannot go over the cap number at that time, but it will lower your cap hit in the long run).

I will take a look at the CBA and try and find the section for you guys
I am mistaken, here is what I've found.

The answer is located in section 50.10 of the CBA subsections a) - d)

Essentially, what I have gathered is that, the only way players count against the cap even if on the IR. A long term injury exception can be applied for and recieved at any time that a player is unable to play providing they have either or are judged by the doctors to be missing at least 10 regular season games AND 24 calendar days. So Begin although nothing is public, has already missed this you can be sure the Habs are getting it.

HERE IS THE TRICKY Part. The exception is to go over the cap not to be exempt from counting against the cap and it seems fairly clear to me, that the exeption can only be used if the player is replaced while he is unfit to play. So Anything for Bouillon and Dandenault, while they were out is likely wasted, but the Habs could increase the total cap number by the remainder of begin's salary (assuming he is out the year) or for the amount he has been out provided that a player is acquired while he is out.

I know this is very confusing, but this is what I undersand from a quick read through of it.

From what I just explained, there could be an argument that part of Niinimaa's salary could be offset by a cap increase for the time Bouillon was out as he was acquired to fill in during that time.

There are several examples there but the true complication is the involement of several ideas of an averaged team salary (the teams cap position at a point in time) the teams hit on the upper limit (which is the total salary commited against the cap over teh course of teh season) etc...

I hope this makes some sense to some, if anyone wants to read it and take a look please do so and let me know if you agree of disagree, we could then maybe talk it out if there are disagreemetns on interpretation.

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Old
01-23-2007, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
The Long term injury exception on the cap is ONLY for teams that are RIGHT at or near the salary cap. It's written on the NHL.com site in the CBA section. The Habs did not get any relief when any of our injured players went on IR because they are not close enough to the cap. You have to be like ~ 100 K (or even less) away from it to get that type of exception. NJ got it with Mogilny in training camp, in part because they were right at the cap. Buffalo are a team right near the cap that has Connolly on Long term IR and can use that exception when they call up Stafford, Paille and company.




If you have 1 million in cap room at the deadline, that means you can add a player with an annual cap hit of 4 million at the deadline since 3/4's of the season (and a bit more I believe) is in the books.

750 K means you can add 3 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

2 millions means you can add 8 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

3 million means you can add 12 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

,etc

So technically, if you have 1 M in cap room and bring in a player with an annual cap hit of 4 m, you could have a ''total'' salary cap count of 47 M, but the team only paid 44 M because the player they acquired at the deadline had already seen 3/4's of his cap hit paid by his former team.
It is not correct that the exception is only for teams near the cap. The section makes no mention of any such requirement. However, the only teams for which it will be useful are teams near the cap, as the exception is an increase to the cap, here is an example as provided for from the CBA.

Cap 40
Team salary 39
Injured player salary 4M
Player gets exception at midpoint of season


The team can replace the injured player with another player earning up to 4, the averaged salary of the team will exempted to exceed the cap amount and be 41M and the team will be given an exempton on the total cap hit of 1M, The amount by which the replacement players remaining salary exceeds the cap.

In essence, I was wrong again. I apologize as I'm understanding this as I go.

So, for the exemption to be effective, the difference between the averaged team salary and the cap must be less than the injured players salary, as the replacement can make up to that amount of money at which point the exception will allow you to exceed the cap.

SORRY, I'm FIGURING IT OUT AS I GO

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01-23-2007, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by GoHabsGO252006 View Post
SORRY, I'm FIGURING IT OUT AS I GO
You just summarized life.

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01-23-2007, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JMMR View Post
Dandenault, Bouillon and Higgins missed considerable time and Begin is still out.
That means the portion of their salary will not be counted against the cap.
I am pretty sure their salaries count. I think the only exception is if a player, prior to the start of the season, is going to miss the entire season: this is the only time a salary won't count.

That is the reason why teams always keep a 2M$ window, in order to replace a player if too many injuries occur at the same time.

Therefore, a wise move by Gainey would have been to not listen to the 'fans' and avoid signing a veterant like Samsonov. At this point, Montreal would have been in Nashville's position were the team is doing well with still some room for a veterant or too.

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01-23-2007, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by GoHabsGO252006 View Post
It is not correct that the exception is only for teams near the cap. The section makes no mention of any such requirement. However, the only teams for which it will be useful are teams near the cap, as the exception is an increase to the cap, here is an example as provided for from the CBA.
Irish Blues' site explains it without the typical CBA lawyer language:

http://www.geocities.com/rmccleary97/cap_faq1.htm

(in the LONG TERM INJURIES section)

Relief toward the salary cap only comes if replacing an injured player's salary would push the team over the cap, and the amount of relief is limited to the amount the team would go over the cap - not the entire amount of the injured player's salary.

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01-23-2007, 11:28 AM
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players still get paid if they are injured

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01-23-2007, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Habber View Post
Another problem I see with this.

It's my understanding that no matter how much room a team has left, at no point can their total payroll be over the cap. Just because you have $5mil left doesn't mean you can add a $5mil guy.

I could be wrong, but it makes sense. Otherwise a team with a ton of cap room could literally add 3 or 4 $5mil guys for a playoff run. Grossly unfair.
Yeah a team can go over, they just have to be under come the end of the season. It remains to be seen what penalties might exist for a team that doesn't.

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01-23-2007, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
If you have 1 million in cap room at the deadline, that means you can add a player with an annual cap hit of 4 million at the deadline since 3/4's of the season (and a bit more I believe) is in the books.

750 K means you can add 3 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

2 millions means you can add 8 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

3 million means you can add 12 million in annual cap hits at the deadline.

,etc

So technically, if you have 1 M in cap room and bring in a player with an annual cap hit of 4 m, you could have a ''total'' salary cap count of 47 M, but the team only paid 44 M because the player they acquired at the deadline had already seen 3/4's of his cap hit paid by his former team.
After some CBA reading (slow day at work), it appears this is a partial truth.

If the person youíre acquiring is a UFA at seasonís end, then this is entirely true. You may go over the cap, as you arenít on the hook for the playerís salary after the current season.

However, you cannot add salary to a point where you will be over the cap going into the next season. If you acquire a player who is under contract for next season, you must have cap room available for him.

I donít think this will come into play, though, as most teams will have lots of cap room for next season, as they will have contracts expiring at the end of the year.

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01-23-2007, 12:36 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Yeah a team can go over, they just have to be under come the end of the season. It remains to be seen what penalties might exist for a team that doesn't.
Not so,

A team cannot go over the "cap" on an average team salary basis at any time in the year without an exception or the league will immediately begin placing their players on waivers from the lowest salary until they are no longer over the cap.

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01-23-2007, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber View Post
After some CBA reading (slow day at work), it appears this is a partial truth.

If the person youíre acquiring is a UFA at seasonís end, then this is entirely true. You may go over the cap, as you arenít on the hook for the playerís salary after the current season.

However, you cannot add salary to a point where you will be over the cap going into the next season. If you acquire a player who is under contract for next season, you must have cap room available for him.

I donít think this will come into play, though, as most teams will have lots of cap room for next season, as they will have contracts expiring at the end of the year.

This is in theory correct, and is the reason that all of the teams are supposedly waiting until close to the deadline to make a transaction at a time when the salaries are more easily absorbed.

Therefore, the calculations as we have and are currenlty trying to figure out are that much more important.

I don't think however, that any deal we make the salary cap will matter much. Niinimaa can always be thrown in with a 4th round pick so the salaries can be closer to evening out. That's just my opinion but i think if BG wants to do something salaries won't be much of an issue.

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01-23-2007, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GoHabsGO252006 View Post
Not so,

A team cannot go over the "cap" on an average team salary basis at any time in the year without an exception or the league will immediately begin placing their players on waivers from the lowest salary until they are no longer over the cap.
Thanks for the correction. That would be a funny scenario to see happen.

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