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Old
01-24-2007, 12:38 PM
  #51
Digger12
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Originally Posted by 21Gator View Post
I don't understand this need to defend Smid. No one is sayign he won't be a good defenceman. The problem is many of us were hoping for a great defenceman, and I don't see that in Smid.
So then the problem is more with the fans and their overly optimistic expectations, would you not agree?

As with Lupul, I think fans in general would be a fair bit more forgiving if these players had been Oiler draft picks, rather than assets brought in by trading away one of the top three dmen playing today.

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01-24-2007, 01:38 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Carle, Weber, Smid, Ranger, Meszaros, Seabrook, Whitney, Green ...

Greene, Suter, Ballard, Michalek, Keith, Tyutin, White, Vlasic, O'Brien and Tukkonen
Michalek, O'Brien, Keith, Tyutin, aren't on entry level contracts anymore (and I don't think either White or Ballard are either, so I am not 100% certain of that).

Tukonen is a Right Winger.

So that Leaves Greene, Suter and Vlasic, possibly White and Ballard as well. I have no idea if there is a limit to the number of players from a team in this (which could exclude Suter because of Weber and Radulov), and Ian White doesn't play in the conference.

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01-24-2007, 01:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
Michalek, O'Brien, Keith, Tyutin, aren't on entry level contracts anymore (and I don't think either White or Ballard are either, so I am not 100% certain of that).

Tukonen is a Right Winger.

So that Leaves Greene, Suter and Vlasic, possibly White and Ballard as well. I have no idea if there is a limit to the number of players from a team in this (which could exclude Suter because of Weber and Radulov), and Ian White doesn't play in the conference.
Probably meant Lasse Kukonen not Tukonen

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01-24-2007, 01:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
Hmmmmm... well first of all, I was making a tounge-in-cheek comment about Lethonen... he is obviously the cream of the young goaltending crop. As for Smid, I am so utterly dissappointed in your attitude towards the kid db. Lost alot of respect for your posts because of it too. You seem to be on a mission to rip the kid any chance you get. I think you are making a HUGE mistake in your assessment of Smid, and it seems that you throw all logic to the wind in order to make your point that he is anything but a young stud in the making. It's not Ladislav Smids fault that he's playing for a team so devoid of depth that he's forced into playing a top 4 role as a rookie, and has to PK too. He is being put in a position to fail, not succeed. I mean for cripes sakes he's playing with Matt Greene right now! Neither one of these guys should be playing with a rookie!
My attitude toward the kid is that he is not helping the team right now. Not once have I ever suggested we trade him. Not once I have ever said he'll be a bust.

From day 1 I've questioned his ability to contribute at the NHL level (like I would with any young defenceman... or young player period). I've questioned countless posters as they've tried to convince themselves that Smid has been our 2nd best defenceman, and clearly better than guys like Bergeron and Tjarnqvist and such.

Young defencemen have the hardest job in hockey... and I understand that. I also recognize that he just can't do it right now in the role he's been playing. That's not an insult. The criticism towards him are also a direct reflection on the situation the organization put him in. It's not ideal.

Again, just because I don't think he's playing well for the role he's in doesn't mean I don't think he's playing well for his age. Nor does it mean I have no hope for him.

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And his regular partner is Steve Staios? C'mon... the guy is a solid bottom pair PK D, who has a tonne of heart, but hardly a mentor for a young star.
This is ridiculous. All Staios has done is play fairly difficult minutes and continually end up on positive side of all the results. This is not a bottom pairing defenceman.

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Ladislav Smid is the real deal. Mark my words. He may never be a Pronger or Neidermayer in terms of point output but this guy is going to be a top 2 way defenceman in this league. I just hope crazy Oiler fans don't run him out of town before he gets a chance to prove it!
That's all well and good... but it's not helping us right now. Things like him making the youngstars game do little to help the Oilers win hockey games.

I don't think anyone has even attempted to run him out of town... he's just playing with the big boys right now and he doesn't quite measure up yet. He isn't the first good young defenceman to have that happen to him... nor will he be the last.

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01-24-2007, 01:55 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
Probably meant Lasse Kukonen not Tukonen
Either way, he's not on an entry-level contract.

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Old
01-24-2007, 02:00 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
So then the problem is more with the fans and their overly optimistic expectations, would you not agree?

As with Lupul, I think fans in general would be a fair bit more forgiving if these players had been Oiler draft picks, rather than assets brought in by trading away one of the top three dmen playing today.

Yes and no.

I just relistened to the KLowe interview after THE trade. He was talking about Smid coming in and playing like Brewer. To some degree he has, but Brewer that first started out on the Island, not Brewer that first started out on the Oilers. So we were a little mislead, as well as having high expectations.

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01-25-2007, 02:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
My attitude toward the kid is that he is not helping the team right now. Not once have I ever suggested we trade him. Not once I have ever said he'll be a bust.

From day 1 I've questioned his ability to contribute at the NHL level (like I would with any young defenceman... or young player period). I've questioned countless posters as they've tried to convince themselves that Smid has been our 2nd best defenceman, and clearly better than guys like Bergeron and Tjarnqvist and such.

Young defencemen have the hardest job in hockey... and I understand that. I also recognize that he just can't do it right now in the role he's been playing. That's not an insult. The criticism towards him are also a direct reflection on the situation the organization put him in. It's not ideal.

Again, just because I don't think he's playing well for the role he's in doesn't mean I don't think he's playing well for his age. Nor does it mean I have no hope for him.



This is ridiculous. All Staios has done is play fairly difficult minutes and continually end up on positive side of all the results. This is not a bottom pairing defenceman.



That's all well and good... but it's not helping us right now. Things like him making the youngstars game do little to help the Oilers win hockey games.

I don't think anyone has even attempted to run him out of town... he's just playing with the big boys right now and he doesn't quite measure up yet. He isn't the first good young defenceman to have that happen to him... nor will he be the last.
you're whole argument is pretty flawed. You're basing it on this idea that you have that a rookie defenceman should only be a bottom pairing guy. Now in an ideal situation yes they should be sheltering Smid and giving him the easy matchups and letting him get his feet wet slowly, but he's playing a lot of minutes on one of the top pairings for a reason, it's because he IS one of the Oilers best defencemen regardless of the fact that he's a 20 year old rookie. He's a damn good defenceman who is being asked to do more than he should and for the most part he is doing it pretty well. Just because you have this notion that things should be done a certain way does not make it right or wrong.

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01-25-2007, 07:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
you're whole argument is pretty flawed. You're basing it on this idea that you have that a rookie defenceman should only be a bottom pairing guy. Now in an ideal situation yes they should be sheltering Smid and giving him the easy matchups and letting him get his feet wet slowly, but he's playing a lot of minutes on one of the top pairings for a reason, it's because he IS one of the Oilers best defencemen regardless of the fact that he's a 20 year old rookie. He's a damn good defenceman who is being asked to do more than he should and for the most part he is doing it pretty well. Just because you have this notion that things should be done a certain way does not make it right or wrong.
I think your response is more flawed. the whole point is that Smid is NOT one of the team's best defencemen right now.

Smid is:
- a player with a really nice upside
- playing well with consideration given to the situation the Oilers have put him in
- a player who has exhibited some brief flashes of being a special player.

Smid is also:
- a player who has 0 goals and averages less the half a shot a game (0.432) and as such is contributing nothing to goalscoring from the back end
- a player with only 5 assists and as such seems to be contributing little to the team's offense as a whole.
- a playerwith a -7. Granted, +/- is far from a perfect stat, but I think if you really watch him play, you'll see that he's fairly deserving of the stat.

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01-25-2007, 07:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
you're whole argument is pretty flawed. You're basing it on this idea that you have that a rookie defenceman should only be a bottom pairing guy. Now in an ideal situation yes they should be sheltering Smid and giving him the easy matchups and letting him get his feet wet slowly, but he's playing a lot of minutes on one of the top pairings for a reason, it's because he IS one of the Oilers best defencemen regardless of the fact that he's a 20 year old rookie. He's a damn good defenceman who is being asked to do more than he should and for the most part he is doing it pretty well. Just because you have this notion that things should be done a certain way does not make it right or wrong.
That is very debatable.

He's behind Smith, Staios and Tjarnqvist at the very least. The results just say that he is.

He is also behind MAB in terms of actual results as well (especially MAB's results away from Greene). The argument can be made for Hedja as well, but with his limited number of games, I could accept that the argument isn't that solid.

So really, he's been inferior to 4 of our defencemen, and it's a darn close race between him and Greene for bringing up the rear. As many mistakes as MAB makes, his offence helps his results out.

He's playing with Staios because they can't play him with Greene or Bergeron. Greene and Bergeron also can't make the step up right now to play the Staios-Smid minutes, and the hope is that Staios can do enough to cover up for Smid.

As good as the kid looks... he's got horrible results. If he had some sort of offensive game to him, he'd probably be a pretty useful defenceman right now (ala MAB). But he doesn't... and that results in him not doing much to help the team.

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01-25-2007, 07:54 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
So really, he's been inferior to 4 of our defencemen, and it's a darn close race between him and Greene for bringing up the rear. As many mistakes as MAB makes, his offence helps his results out.
Unless we are talking about even strength where MAB's results are pretty much the same as Greene, and Smid.

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01-25-2007, 07:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
Smid is also:
- a player who has 0 goals and averages less the half a shot a game (0.432) and as such is contributing nothing to goalscoring from the back end
- a player with only 5 assists and as such seems to be contributing little to the team's offense as a whole.
- a playerwith a -7. Granted, +/- is far from a perfect stat, but I think if you really watch him play, you'll see that he's fairly deserving of the stat.
WHO CARES ? really I love how fans here think it is all about scoring. His job is PREVENTING scoring chances first and foremost. It is the same garbage as what happened here last year with Pronger in the first 25 games of the year, just because he did not score he was a waste.

Lately I have had more faith in the Greene Smid pairing than any other pairing on the ice.

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01-25-2007, 08:24 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
WHO CARES ? really I love how fans here think it is all about scoring. His job is PREVENTING scoring chances first and foremost. It is the same garbage as what happened here last year with Pronger in the first 25 games of the year, just because he did not score he was a waste.

Lately I have had more faith in the Greene Smid pairing than any other pairing on the ice.
You've got to relax a little bit and take some more time reading the posts, I think. No one is critical of Smid's lack of scoring. If anything, posters seem quick to agree that any expectations we have of Smid to be a scorer are unfounded.

+/- and other statistics aside, I don't see how you can really watch Smid play and tell me his defence is worthy of top pairing minutes, he simply makes too many mistakes (which is, of course, understandable, given his age)

No one is saying Smid sucks (well ,almost nobody), the point is that he is at this present point in time, not a top 4 defender based on quality of play.

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01-25-2007, 08:37 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
WHO CARES ? really I love how fans here think it is all about scoring. His job is PREVENTING scoring chances first and foremost. It is the same garbage as what happened here last year with Pronger in the first 25 games of the year, just because he did not score he was a waste.

Lately I have had more faith in the Greene Smid pairing than any other pairing on the ice.
I really love how fans here think that forwards only contribute to offense and defenseman only contribute to defense. :]

If you're going to try and make an argument about Smid defensively, you may notice that A) Smid has pulled down the results of every player he's played with in terms of +/-, B) He's been on the wrong end of several hi-light reel plays where he tried to play the puck instead of the man, C) He's been consistently caught out of position and D) he loses his man at a disgustingly high rate in the defensive zone as he gets caught up watching the puck.

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01-25-2007, 08:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
You've got to relax a little bit and take some more time reading the posts, I think. No one is critical of Smid's lack of scoring. If anything, posters seem quick to agree that any expectations we have of Smid to be a scorer are unfounded.

+/- and other statistics aside, I don't see how you can really watch Smid play and tell me his defence is worthy of top pairing minutes, he simply makes too many mistakes (which is, of course, understandable, given his age)

No one is saying Smid sucks (well ,almost nobody), the point is that he is at this present point in time, not a top 4 defender based on quality of play.
you seem to want to rag on him for not scoring and you made it quite clear by the tone of your comment.

Added to that you talk about being a minus player and how that does not make him one of our top d well lets look at more than just his minus 7.
So far he has been a minus player in 15 games and 8 of those were in the first 20 games, added to that in the last 12 he has been a minus player in 2 games. Compare that to our captain who was a minus player in 20 games, Staios has been a minus player in 15 games, and Bergeron a minus player in 14 games. But yes he makes too many mistakes and is not top four quality.

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01-25-2007, 08:47 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
I really love how fans here think that forwards only contribute to offense and defenseman only contribute to defense. :]

If you're going to try and make an argument about Smid defensively, you may notice that A) Smid has pulled down the results of every player he's played with in terms of +/-, B) He's been on the wrong end of several hi-light reel plays where he tried to play the puck instead of the man, C) He's been consistently caught out of position and D) he loses his man at a disgustingly high rate in the defensive zone as he gets caught up watching the puck.
wow that is all I have to say, what a crock of ____

give me a break pulls down the plus minus of everyone he plays with, how about you look at his game by game stats and show me where he brings peoples plus minus down

I will address points B,C, and D at once. First what the hell do you watch. The only time I worry is when the play goes below the goal line because he does not know where he is supose to go and where his partner is going. That is far from constantly But aside from that he shows more poise than a lot of our d men. Finally where are all these highlite reel goals that you talk about ?

I have no problem with pointing out his weaknesses but what you say is pure nonsense


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01-25-2007, 09:01 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
give me a break pulls down the plus minus of everyone he plays with, how about you look at his game by game stats and show me where he brings peoples plus minus
They've been posted several times over and I have other things to do, just check back the last Smid argument and you'll see that every player he's played with a minus, and Smid and Greene together are just downright scary, and that Staios without Smid is a very good player .

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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
I will address points B,C, and D at once. First what the hell do you watch. The only time I worry is when the play goes below the goal line because he does not know where he is supose to go and where his partner is going. That is far from constantly But aside from that where are all these highlite reel goals that you talk about ?

I have no problem with pointing out his weaknesses but what you say is pure nonsense
Mikko Koivu, Andrew Brunette and Kristian Huselius all seem to disagree.

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01-25-2007, 09:18 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
They've been posted several times over and I have other things to do, just check back the last Smid argument and you'll see that every player he's played with a minus, and Smid and Greene together are just downright scary, and that Staios without Smid is a very good player .
Do you have anything to back up the BS you throw out there. Like i said lets look at the last 10 games going back to the Dec 23rd Dallas game.
Smid - minus 3 and a minus player in 2 games
Staios - minus 2 and minus player in 3 games (In the 8 games he played since then)
Smith - even (amazingly) but a minus player in SIX games

Oh but I forgot that Smid brings Staios' play down, seeing how
Staios was a minus player against the Nucks and the Dec 31 Calgary game and Smid was even. The only time in the last 10 games that both Smid and Staios played together and both were minus was the Dallas game on the 23rd.


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Mikko Koivu, Andrew Brunette and Kristian Huselius all seem to disagree.
Wow three goals, oh sorry that is every time I forgot

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01-25-2007, 09:20 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Do you have anything to back up the BS you throw out there. Like i said lets look at the last 10 games going back to the Dec 23rd Dallas game.
Smid - minus 3 and a minus player in 2 games
Staios - minus 2 and minus player in 3 games (In the 8 games he played since then)
Smith - even (amazingly) but a minus player in SIX games
Staios hasn't played in the last 6 games and you're using the last 10 as your sample.


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01-25-2007, 09:39 PM
  #69
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One other thing I would like to add lets look at the give away and take aways of Staios, Smith, and Smid since the new year

Against
Flames - Smid 2 Take aways and 1 give awy, Smith 0TK 2 GV, Staios out
Ducks - Smid 1 and 1, Smith 0 and 2, Staios out
Wild - Smid 0 and 0, Smith 0 and 1, Staios out
Flames - Smid 0 and 2, Smith 0 and 0, Staios out
Wild - Smid 0 and 2, Smth 3 and 2, Staios out
Sharks - Smid out, Smith 0 and 0, Staios out
Kings - Smid out, Smith 0 and 1, Staios 0 and 2
Canucks - Smid out, Smith 2 and 1, Staios 0 and 1
Stars - Smid 0 and 0, Smith 0 and 5, Staios 1 and 3
Panthers - Smid 1 and 1, Smith 2 and 1, Staios 0 and 1

recap
Smid - 7 games, 4 take aways, and 7 give aways
Smith - 10 games 7 take aways, and 15 give aways
Staios - 4 games 1 take away, and 7 give aways

So can you tell me how he is so much worse than our other d men

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01-25-2007, 09:40 PM
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Staios hasn't played in the last 6 games and you're using the last 10 as your sample.

i went back to smids last ten (hence why I started at the Dec 23 dallas game), which I should have said and I also did say I counted 8 Staios games as well I should say that Smith is a minus player in 8 out of 13 games.


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01-26-2007, 02:12 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
you seem to want to rag on him for not scoring and you made it quite clear by the tone of your comment.
You may find it better to pay closer attention to the content of a post instead of reading some random 'tone' in it. You seem defensive in general, perhaps you're misinterpreting the 'tone' of a lot of people's posts

Quote:
Added to that you talk about being a minus player and how that does not make him one of our top d well lets look at more than just his minus 7.
So far he has been a minus player in 15 games and 8 of those were in the first 20 games, added to that in the last 12 he has been a minus player in 2 games. Compare that to our captain who was a minus player in 20 games, Staios has been a minus player in 15 games, and Bergeron a minus player in 14 games. But yes he makes too many mistakes and is not top four quality.

Again, more time needed on post-comprehension before you fly off the handle. I already conceded the +/- stat to be meaningless at best and qualified that statement by saying that if you watch Smid's play on the ice, without a pair of homer glasses or being blinded with what he one day could potentially be, you'll see a defenceman who makes far to many mistakes to be considered a top 4 contributor at this time.


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01-26-2007, 02:15 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
Do you have anything to back up the BS you throw out there.
I think you may be reading a non-existant 'tone' into someone's posts again. PDO has been nothing but cordial and is simply expressing a well thought out opinion that's contrary to yours. No need to be so agressive...

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01-26-2007, 02:18 AM
  #73
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You may find it better to pay closer attention to the content of a post instead of reading some random 'tone' in it. You seem defensive in general, perhaps you're misinterpreting the 'tone' of a lot of people's posts



Again, more time needed on post-comprehension before you fly off the handle. I already conceded the +/- stat to be meaningless at best and qualified that statemet by saying that if you watch his play on the ice, without a pair of homer glasses or being blinded what he one day could potentially be, you'll see a defenceman who makes far to many mistakes to be considered a top 4 contributor at this time.
what mistakes ? like i said look at his output compared to our so called top two d men he has been better than them in terms of not giving the puck away and being on the ice for goals against - that is a fact, so what does that tell us: either he is more reliable than our top guys or his mistakes are not major since they are not ending up in the net. Maybe if you take off your first month of the season goggles you will realize that.

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01-26-2007, 02:20 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
I think you may be reading a non-existant 'tone' into someone's posts again. PDO has been nothing but cordial and is simply expressing a well thought out opinion that's contrary to yours. No need to be so agressive...
my proble m is if you are going to throw out Bs like he did (it is one thing to criticze
a player to the degree it is warranted but to basically say he was far below our other d men and our worst liability) then you better have something that will back it up.

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01-26-2007, 02:22 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
One other thing I would like to add lets look at the give away and take aways of Staios, Smith, and Smid since the new year

Against
Flames - Smid 2 Take aways and 1 give awy, Smith 0TK 2 GV, Staios out
Ducks - Smid 1 and 1, Smith 0 and 2, Staios out
Wild - Smid 0 and 0, Smith 0 and 1, Staios out
Flames - Smid 0 and 2, Smith 0 and 0, Staios out
Wild - Smid 0 and 2, Smth 3 and 2, Staios out
Sharks - Smid out, Smith 0 and 0, Staios out
Kings - Smid out, Smith 0 and 1, Staios 0 and 2
Canucks - Smid out, Smith 2 and 1, Staios 0 and 1
Stars - Smid 0 and 0, Smith 0 and 5, Staios 1 and 3
Panthers - Smid 1 and 1, Smith 2 and 1, Staios 0 and 1

recap
Smid - 7 games, 4 take aways, and 7 give aways
Smith - 10 games 7 take aways, and 15 give aways
Staios - 4 games 1 take away, and 7 give aways

So can you tell me how he is so much worse than our other d men
*sigh* The giveaway stat has been proven to be largly useless as well. Go check the league leaders in giveaways. Players who like to have the puck on their stick simply give the puck away more, it has very little relevance when taken out of context.

Now if you want to tell me that based on the games you've watched Smith has turned the puck over on numerous occasions, I will not disagree with you.

But if you want to say that Smid hasn't been doing that, then I've got to wonder what games you're watching.

The difference between Smith & Smid, is while both are guilty of unforced turnovers, Smith's grit along hte boards and defensive game allow him to be a top 4 contributor right now (I wouldn't even put him top 2 in his current slump), but that does not change the fact that Smid is not.

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