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Best Czech Players Ever?

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Old
01-27-2007, 05:09 AM
  #51
Reks
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Yes, Nedomansky NHL career wasn't so great. But again, he came in a completely different world (language, lifestyle, rink size, schedule, rules etc ...) when he was not so young to adapt easily. And your guys are trying to judge him by NHL standards ...

Look, how miserably "average NHL players" perform at Worlds after 1976 despite the fact that they even have sometimes guys like Gretzky, Lafleur, Esposito, Clarke etc And they needed to adapt to different rinks and rules only ... No language and lifestyle problems...

I am sure if those NHL greats with whom you compare Nedomansky came to Czech League (not to mention Soviet League) after their 30-ties, they would be just average players overthere.

BTW, I think that Martinec is actually was a bit better player than Nedomansky. Of course, both of them should be in the Hall!

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Old
01-27-2007, 05:46 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reks View Post

I am sure if those NHL greats with whom you compare Nedomansky came to Czech League (not to mention Soviet League) after their 30-ties, they would be just average players overthere.

Yes. Soviet league was much better than RSL is. Here's some RSL stats:

2004-2005 AK Bars Kazan:

Vincent Lecavalier

Regular season: 30 games, 15 points.
Playoffs: 4, games, 1 point

Dany Heatley

Regular season: 11 games, 4 points
Playoffs: 4 games, 3 points

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01-27-2007, 06:11 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reks View Post
BTW, I think that Martinec is actually was a bit better player than Nedomansky. Of course, both of them should be in the Hall!
It's close. Two things strike me, Nedomansky's size means he's more likely to be effective regardless of league. Two, Martinec wasn't the go to guy until after Nedomansky defected, granted the age gap factors in.

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01-27-2007, 07:36 AM
  #54
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Mikita may have 1 more Hart trophy than jagr, however Jagr has never been popular with the media and was completly robbed of Hart trophy's in 2000 and 2006. The fact of the matter is guys like Sakic are considered to be all timers and a guy like Sakic couldn't hold Jagr's jockstrap. Mikita was a good player, don't get me wrong, but his finishing in the top 5 in the categories you listed are not so impressive when you factor in he played against weaker competetion throughout his career. Jagr had to contend with guys like Gretzkey, Lemieuz, Yzerman, Sakic and Forsberg in their primes, and now has to compete with the Staal's, Crosby's, Ovechkin's and Thornton's of the league. The fact is Jagr played in a much deeper talent pool, in an era where goaltending and defence reigned supreme, and stood above all. Not only did he stand above, he put up numbers that people simply said would never be seen again. Gartner's record of consecutive 30 goal seasons was deemed untouchable, well guess what, Jagr will match it this year. Jagr is the only current threat to score 2000 points. Something that Messier, Howe, Lemieux and anybody else you want to name besides Gretzkey never did. Will Jagr actually crack 2000? Probably not, but he will probably finish all time top 5 in scoring, and that can NOT be overlooked when discussinng who was better.


Last edited by Fish on The Sand: 01-27-2007 at 07:42 AM.
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Old
01-27-2007, 08:01 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Nedomansky played a lot more games than everybody behind him on that list. His accomplishments aren't as impressive as one might think.

My point is, some people in this thread overrate Nedomansky. He wasn't much more than an average NHLer. His career before the NHL cannot be compared because the competition he faced was different.
I think you are confusing an average NHL career with an average player. The average player doesn't even last to play in his 30's, let alone lead his team in goals and points at the age of 34.

Of the 37 NHL players born in 1944, only 11, including Nedomansky, were still playing in the NHL in 77-78 when Nedomansky made his debut, and Nedomanksy played two years after the last of them was gone.

Players born in 1944 who scored 30+ goals in the NHL:
Player - Season - Goals
Ken Hodge 68-69 - 45
Dennis Hull 68-69 - 30
Bill Goldsworthy 69-70 - 36
Ken Hodge 70-71 - 43
Dennis Hull 70-71 - 40
Bill Goldsworthy 70-71 - 34
Bill Goldsworthy 71-72 - 31
Dennis Hull 71-72 - 30
Dennis Hull 72-73 - 39
Ken Hodge 72-73 - 37
Ken Hodge 73-74 - 50
Bill Goldsworthy 73-74 - 48
Bill Goldsworthy 74-75 - 37
Vaclav Nedomansky 78-79 - 38
Vaclav Nedomansky 79-80 - 35

Players born in 1944 who scored 70+ points in the NHL:
Player - Season - Goals
Ken Hodge 68-69 - 90
Ken Hodge 70-71 - 105
Fred Stanfield 70-71 - 76
Fred Stanfield 71-72 - 79
Dennis Hull 72-73 - 90
Ken Hodge 72-73 - 81
Fred Stanfield 72-73 - 78
Ken Hodge 73-74 - 105
Bill Goldsworthy 73-74 - 74
Bill Goldsworthy 74-75 - 72
Vaclav Nedomansky 78-79 - 73
Vaclav Nedomansky 79-80 - 74

So the others born in 1944 started scoring 30+ goals and 70+ points 6 years before Nedomansky came to North America, and stopped doing it the year he arrived. Then 3 years later Nedomansky puts up 30+ and 70+ not once but twice.

The last time a player older than Nedomansky finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Jean Ratelle in 76-77.


Last edited by BM67: 01-27-2007 at 10:40 AM.
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Old
01-27-2007, 08:29 AM
  #56
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Quote:
The fact of the matter is guys like Sakic are considered to be all timers and a guy like Sakic couldn't hold Jagr's jockstrap.
I agree. I like Sakic a lot, but I take Jagr anyday over Sakic. Jagr is in my top 10 all-time list.


Quote:
Mikita was a good player, don't get me wrong, but his finishing in the top 5 in the categories you listed are not so impressive when you factor in he played against weaker competetion throughout his career.
Yes.

Mikita:

1959-1967 original six era, but no europeans
1967-1972 expansion era, no europeans
1972-1979 WHA era, virtually no europeans

Also virtually no americans, because they sucked.

Jagr:

1990--> all the best europeans + lot's of americans. (more teams than Mikita's time, but overall quality = better in Jagr's time)

Mikita won 4 Art Ross Trophy's, but never had 100 point season (97 points twice).

Here's 100 point seasons 1959-1979:

1968-1969:

Esposito 126
B. Hull 107
Howe 103

1969-1970:

Orr 120

1970-1971:

Esposito 152
Orr 139
Bucyk 116
Hodge 105

1971-1972:

Esposito 133
Orr 117
Ratelle 109
Hadfield 106

1972-1973:

Esposito 130
Clarke 104
Orr 101
Macleish 100

1973-1974;

Esposito 145
Orr 122
Hodge 105

1974-1975:

Orr 135
Esposito 127
Dionne 121
Lafleur 119
P. Mahovlich 117
Clarke 116
Robert 100

1975-1976:

Lafleur 125
Clarke 119
Perreault 113
Barber 112
Larouche 111
Ratelle 105
P. Mahovlich 105
Pronovost 104
Sittler 100

1976-1977:

Lafleur 136
Dionne 122
Shutt 105

1977-1978:

Lafleur 132
Trottier 123
Sittler 117

1978-1979:

Trottier 134
Dionne 130
Lafleur 129
Bossy 126
MacMillan 108
Chouinard 107
Potvin 101

25 Different players

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01-27-2007, 10:20 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reks View Post
Yes, Nedomansky NHL career wasn't so great. But again, he came in a completely different world (language, lifestyle, rink size, schedule, rules etc ...) when he was not so young to adapt easily. And your guys are trying to judge him by NHL standards ...

Look, how miserably "average NHL players" perform at Worlds after 1976 despite the fact that they even have sometimes guys like Gretzky, Lafleur, Esposito, Clarke etc And they needed to adapt to different rinks and rules only ... No language and lifestyle problems...

I am sure if those NHL greats with whom you compare Nedomansky came to Czech League (not to mention Soviet League) after their 30-ties, they would be just average players overthere.

BTW, I think that Martinec is actually was a bit better player than Nedomansky. Of course, both of them should be in the Hall!
I don't think the excuses have anything to do with it. What language does the puck understand? You can either play or you can't. Nedomansky wanted to show what he could do and he was pretty average.

The Worlds are after the Stanley Cup playoffs - after a player has finished caring for the year. It is a vacation for NHL players.

North American players care about the NHL and winning Stanley Cups. That is the only place you can really measure them.

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01-27-2007, 10:37 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
I don't think the excuses have anything to do with it. What language does the puck understand? You can either play or you can't. Nedomansky wanted to show what he could do and he was pretty average.
Excuses? I'm guessing you're very young and naive or at least haven't moved over and lived in another country with a different language and culture. Hockey players are human beings too and as such are affected by many things outside the rink.

I would never have thought that I'd need to explain these things to anybody...oh well.

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01-27-2007, 10:48 AM
  #59
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I really think Stastny is being undervalued in this thread. Pretty sure the consensus is that Mikita, Hasek, Jagr and Stastny are the top four. I won't bother ranking them, I just want to prop up Peter a bit here...

From Wikipedia:


-1st player in NHL history to collect over 100 points in rookie year (109)

-2nd player in NHL history to record 1000 or more points in one decade (1119 in the 1980s)

-Shares NHL record for assists by a rookie (70)

-Holds NHL record for points in a road game with 8 (four goals and four assists on February 22, 1981 against Washington Capitals)

-One of 7 players in NHL history to record at least 6 consecutive 100+ point seasons

One of my favorite hockey trivia questions to throw at people is who is the second highest scorer from the 80's, 'cause no one ever gets Stastny. And as we know there were a couple guys putting up some big numbers that decade.

While Quebec did make a couple of playoff runs in the mid-80's, by and large they weren't that good a team, no depth, Stastny (and Goulet..) carried them big time. IMO he's probably the most under-rated player of the decade, largely due to the lack of exposure playing in Quebec.

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01-27-2007, 11:40 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
I don't think the excuses have anything to do with it. What language does the puck understand? You can either play or you can't. Nedomansky wanted to show what he could do and he was pretty average.
I thing you just never live in a different country. Believe me it's
a shock to move even from Canada to UK in 2000-ties. So, I can only imagine how it was hard to move from Czech republic to Canada in 70-ties without language!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The Worlds are after the Stanley Cup playoffs - after a player has finished caring for the year. It is a vacation for NHL players.
First, I don't think it's a vacation for them. Nobody forces you to go there if you don't want. Second, just to be precise, the Worlds are at the same time as Stanley Cup playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
North American players care about the NHL and winning Stanley Cups. That is the only place you can really measure them.
BTW, though it a bit offtopic, I still remember how Makarov rushed to the Worlds 90 and 91. So I really doubt, that he cared much about Calgary perfomance in Cup playoffs. For him, as well as for other Soviet Superstars who came in NHL after their 30-ties, Worlds were probably still more important. And, honestly, I don't blame them for that. They were just too old to change their minds.

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01-27-2007, 11:44 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
I really think Stastny is being undervalued in this thread. Pretty sure the consensus is that Mikita, Hasek, Jagr and Stastny are the top four. I won't bother ranking them, I just want to prop up Peter a bit here...

-1st player in NHL history to collect over 100 points in rookie year (109)

-2nd player in NHL history to record 1000 or more points in one decade (1119 in the 1980s)

-Shares NHL record for assists by a rookie (70)

-Holds NHL record for points in a road game with 8 (four goals and four assists on February 22, 1981 against Washington Capitals)

-One of 7 players in NHL history to record at least 6 consecutive 100+ point seasons

One of my favorite hockey trivia questions to throw at people is who is the second highest scorer from the 80's, 'cause no one ever gets Stastny. And as we know there were a couple guys putting up some big numbers that decade.

While Quebec did make a couple of playoff runs in the mid-80's, by and large they weren't that good a team, no depth, Stastny (and Goulet..) carried them big time. IMO he's probably the most under-rated player of the decade, largely due to the lack of exposure playing in Quebec.
Ha! You quoted my contributions to the Wikipedia Stastny page.

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01-27-2007, 11:46 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
North American players care about the NHL and winning Stanley Cups. That is the only place you can really measure them.

European players care about international tournaments (olympics and World championship). It's the only place you can really measure them. NHL is only for the money. Playoffs sucks, because you don't get paid and can't play at world championships.

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01-27-2007, 11:53 AM
  #63
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Ha! You quoted my contributions to the Wikipedia Stastny page.
Yup, my apologies for not quoting the source, hadn't had enough coffee yet, I'll edit that. Thanks for the stats...

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01-27-2007, 11:56 AM
  #64
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No, no, I don't care about that. I just thought it was neat. "Wait, this sounds awful fam... I wrote those words! But where?!" It's a honor for people to be quoting them.

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01-27-2007, 12:04 PM
  #65
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[QUOTE=BM67;7805186]
The last time a player older than Nedomansky finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Jean Ratelle in 76-77.[/QUOTE]

????? Gretzky did it as a Ranger.

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01-27-2007, 12:07 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The last time a player older than Nedomansky finished in the top 10 of NHL scoring was Jean Ratelle in 76-77.
????? Gretzky did it as a Ranger.
Is Gretzky older than Nedomansky?

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01-27-2007, 12:10 PM
  #67
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Is Gretzky older than Nedomansky?
He finished top 10 in scoring at an older age than Vaclav had his stellar 70 point seasons.

Perhaps you should rephrase your statement so it makes sense?

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01-27-2007, 12:12 PM
  #68
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I agree. I like Sakic a lot, but I take Jagr anyday over Sakic. Jagr is in my top 10 all-time list.




Yes.

Mikita:

1959-1967 original six era, but no europeans
1967-1972 expansion era, no europeans
1972-1979 WHA era, virtually no europeans

Also virtually no americans, because they sucked.

Jagr:

1990--> all the best europeans + lot's of americans. (more teams than Mikita's time, but overall quality = better in Jagr's time)

Mikita won 4 Art Ross Trophy's, but never had 100 point season (97 points twice).

Here's 100 point seasons 1959-1979:

1968-1969:

Esposito 126
B. Hull 107
Howe 103

1969-1970:

Orr 120

1970-1971:

Esposito 152
Orr 139
Bucyk 116
Hodge 105

1971-1972:

Esposito 133
Orr 117
Ratelle 109
Hadfield 106

1972-1973:

Esposito 130
Clarke 104
Orr 101
Macleish 100

1973-1974;

Esposito 145
Orr 122
Hodge 105

1974-1975:

Orr 135
Esposito 127
Dionne 121
Lafleur 119
P. Mahovlich 117
Clarke 116
Robert 100

1975-1976:

Lafleur 125
Clarke 119
Perreault 113
Barber 112
Larouche 111
Ratelle 105
P. Mahovlich 105
Pronovost 104
Sittler 100

1976-1977:

Lafleur 136
Dionne 122
Shutt 105

1977-1978:

Lafleur 132
Trottier 123
Sittler 117

1978-1979:

Trottier 134
Dionne 130
Lafleur 129
Bossy 126
MacMillan 108
Chouinard 107
Potvin 101

25 Different players
Again, keep in mind that when Mikita was posting 100-point seasons, defencemen didn't jump up into the play, so it generally was the forwards contributing to the offence. Add the defencemen into the offensive equation, and his totals soar. Defencemen like Pilote, Horton, Gadsby, Harvey and Kelly had the talent to be legitimate offensive contributors, at least a point-per-game, but it wasn't part of the game. Also keep in mind that Mikita was playing against HHOF goalies on a nightly basis. He never had the advantage of playing against a weak goalie until after expansion. Finally, during the Original Six era, they played a 70-game schedule. If Mikita would have played an 82-game season (the number of games during Jagr's 100-point seasons), Mikita probably has five 100-point seasons. The schedule didn't expand past 70 games until 1967-68 (the year that Mikita won his final Art Ross).

The competition was much better for the Art Ross when Mikita won his four Art Ross Trophies. He faced Bobby Hull at his peak, and guys like Howe and Beliveau playing at a very high level. Jagr won his Art Ross Trophies, did he have anyone in the top 10 of all-time at their peak, or close to their peak? No. Gretzky was at the end of his career. He never faced Lemieux for a full season. Quantity of players doesn't always equal quality.

Mikita didn't play in a weaker era. He played his best hockey in the era that hockey historians revere as hockey's Golden Era - the Original Six. You had 100 in the league, not a watered-down league with 26-30 teams, 60 goalies and about 700 players.

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01-27-2007, 12:13 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reks View Post
I thing you just never live in a different country. Believe me it's
a shock to move even from Canada to UK in 2000-ties. So, I can only imagine how it was hard to move from Czech republic to Canada in 70-ties without language!


First, I don't think it's a vacation for them. Nobody forces you to go there if you don't want. Second, just to be precise, the Worlds are at the same time as Stanley Cup playoffs.


BTW, though it a bit offtopic, I still remember how Makarov rushed to the Worlds 90 and 91. So I really doubt, that he cared much about Calgary perfomance in Cup playoffs. For him, as well as for other Soviet Superstars who came in NHL after their 30-ties, Worlds were probably still more important. And, honestly, I don't blame them for that. They were just too old to change their minds.
The playoffs are over for any players that go to the Worlds. The hockey that matters to them is over and they go on a whim for something to do. They don't care anywhere near the level that they do about the Stanley Cup. Canadians never will.

Makarov is Russian. His motivations are different.

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01-27-2007, 12:15 PM
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European players care about international tournaments (olympics and World championship). It's the only place you can really measure them. NHL is only for the money. Playoffs sucks, because you don't get paid and can't play at world championships.
Well, you are chatting on a predominantly NHL board. That is what we care about the most. The World Championships are something most of us have never cared about and never will. It is a dead tournament with many second-rate players representing their countries. Hold on to it if you wish but, second-rate tournaments don't attract our attention.

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01-27-2007, 12:24 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Mikita didn't play in a weaker era. He played his best hockey in the era that hockey historians revere as hockey's Golden Era - the Original Six.
Original six era = Canadian hockey league era. All the best players didn't play in the NHL.

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01-27-2007, 12:27 PM
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second-rate tournaments don't attract our attention.
second-rate tournament, intresting. It's like NHL 1972-1979 second-rate.

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01-27-2007, 12:52 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
He finished top 10 in scoring at an older age than Vaclav had his stellar 70 point seasons.

Perhaps you should rephrase your statement so it makes sense?
I said "older than Nedomansky", not "older than Nedomansky in 78-79".

Since I didn't state a specific age for Nedomansky, such as his age in 77-78 or 82-83, I'd like to know how you came up with an age for Gretzky to be older than?

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01-27-2007, 01:06 PM
  #74
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Well, you are chatting on a predominantly NHL board. That is what we care about the most.
--^
And this defines the problem at hand -- your basing a players 'greatness' solely by NHL standards. I understand it's the only criteria you know, but to dismiss any other type of accomplishment is foolish.......any educated hockey fan knows this.

Look at a guy like Martin Rucinsky. He's consistantly money in tourneys like the olympics, world cups (higher level than NHL), yet his NHL play is nothing special.
According to your criteria, you'd take a guy like Gagne over him despite Rucinsky being better than Gagne at the highest level of hockey.

As someone else pointed out, how do you explain a whole boatload of NHLers being merely average RSLers during the lock-out? All those NHLers were just that...better NHLers; but not neccissarily better 'players' on the whole.


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01-27-2007, 02:54 PM
  #75
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second-rate tournament, intresting. It's like NHL 1972-1979 second-rate.
Second-rate? The best player who ever lived (Bobby Orr) had some of his best years in the 70s.

In fact, here are some of the players who were in the NHL from 72 to 79: Phil Esposito (likely the best player ever within five feet of the net), Guy LaFleur (best run of dominance by any forward not named Gretzky, Lemieux or Howe), Bryan Trottier (his best was the four Islander Cup wins, but he showed the world how good he was in the late 70s), Bobby Clarke (three Hart Trophy wins), plus you had a past-his-prime but still very good Stan Mikita and a young Bossy. All top-30 all-time players. That's just the forwards.

Orr was the king of defencemen from 72 to 75. No defenceman has ever come close to the level of all-round dominance that Orr attained, and I don't think any defenceman ever will. After Orr left, guys like Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin took over (two of the top 10 defencemen ever). And lurking around throughout the decade was Brad Park, and I know hockey people a hell of a lot smarter than you who rate Brad Park as one of the top 10 defencemen ever.

And then you have goalies like Ken Dryden, Bernie Parent and Tony Esposito.

Clearly not a second-rate league.

If you want to post in the History of Hockey Forum, with HF Board's top dogs, learn something about the game other than stats.

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