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Old
01-26-2007, 11:19 PM
  #1
Cloned
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One plug isn't enough...

...because this team has too many holes to fill in one year to seriously compete for anything this season imo. And possibly too many to compete in the next season.

A quick rundown of the easy ways to beat the Oilers (reposted from the GDT):

1. Sustained forecheck with a pinching D: because our D can't handle it, and our forwards look lost in coverage. Because our collapse defense system consistently leaves the points WIDE open for shots. For once, I'd like to see one of our D-men step up and take an opposition forward out of the play instead of backing in until it's too late. Because no one can make a simple pass or reach the puck before the opponent does.

2. Physical play with our forwards: because no one can keep possession of the puck in the offensive zone for longer than 30 seconds, and because we get beat to every loose puck after we lose it to physical pressure.

3. Stand up on the Czech line: because if you don't back off, they won't get in.

4. Pressure the wingers in the neutral zone: because we can't play dump and chase properly without the right physical personnel and we can't play a puck possession game because we don't have people who can make smart, calm decisions with the puck. Because we can't play a speed game either.

5. Go 5-hole on Roloson: because the guy's 37 years old and when you pepper him with enough shots he gets tired and lets those shots in.

6. Other issues (mentioned by other posters): Inconsistency and, despite playing a collapse defense, horrible defensive coverage on forwards driving to the net.

--

That leaves me completely flabbergasted actually, but I'll give a good run at what this team needs to even get itself back to above average.

Cloned's Oiler Wishlist
2 Top 4 defensemen (preferably veterans) -- one puckmover, one defensive guy

3 forwards that can actually hit, check and keep possession in the offensive zone

1 backup goaltender that the coach actually has confidence in, or a new directive that Markkanen should play more often

A change of system that doesn't start with the letter C and end with the letter E with the letters 'ollaps' in between

Speedy forwards

Anything I missed?

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Old
01-26-2007, 11:25 PM
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Our offense is getting messed up because of the team defense concept. We need TWO defensemen to have a decent shot.

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Old
01-26-2007, 11:26 PM
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Well, to be fair, change 3 forwards to 2 forwards... Moreau is on the IR. I'd go as far to also say change the top 4 to 1 top 2 defenseman and a 4/5 guy to stabilize. Keep in mind that right now we're down two top 4 defensemen in Staios and Tjarnqvist.

Oh..

And get rid of Joffrey Lupul, because he's ****ing useless.

Oh, one more.

Nedved is a corpse. Don't pick him up next time.

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Old
01-26-2007, 11:28 PM
  #4
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Jason Blake, what does everyone think of picking him up?? UFA to be, RWer, Tenacious, Defensiveable reliable, Speedy, Goal scoring knack, physical and gritty??

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01-26-2007, 11:54 PM
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Our problems are still all defense. Our fwds are fine. Yes, even Lupul (who is looking much better of late, imho).

Every time we can't get a rush going it is because of a horrible pass from the D. Every time a puck squeezes out past the line because our D have to drop back to the red line because they are afraid of giving up a goal, it makes me scream. We can't sustain any pressure because we have no D that can do the job.

We need someone that can skate/pass/shoot the puck, and can hold the blue line while also knowing when to do so.. Frankly, we need Redden. That is if we want to plug it with one plug.

If we want to treat it as two problems, Stuart would also be fine, as long as we also pick up a Brewer type as well. Any of our D men not named Smid or Greene can be moved out to make salary room for them.

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01-26-2007, 11:56 PM
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So Stortini has been recalled... didn't want to start a new thread without a link as I don't know the policy on that and didn't want to have a thread closed but you can take that to the bank

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Old
01-27-2007, 12:53 AM
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I want Moreau back

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned View Post
...because this team has too many holes to fill in one year to seriously compete for anything this season imo. And possibly too many to compete in the next season.

A quick rundown of the easy ways to beat the Oilers (reposted from the GDT):

1. Sustained forecheck with a pinching D: because our D can't handle it, and our forwards look lost in coverage. Because our collapse defense system consistently leaves the points WIDE open for shots. For once, I'd like to see one of our D-men step up and take an opposition forward out of the play instead of backing in until it's too late. Because no one can make a simple pass or reach the puck before the opponent does.

2. Physical play with our forwards: because no one can keep possession of the puck in the offensive zone for longer than 30 seconds, and because we get beat to every loose puck after we lose it to physical pressure.

3. Stand up on the Czech line: because if you don't back off, they won't get in.

4. Pressure the wingers in the neutral zone: because we can't play dump and chase properly without the right physical personnel and we can't play a puck possession game because we don't have people who can make smart, calm decisions with the puck. Because we can't play a speed game either.

5. Go 5-hole on Roloson: because the guy's 37 years old and when you pepper him with enough shots he gets tired and lets those shots in.

6. Other issues (mentioned by other posters): Inconsistency and, despite playing a collapse defense, horrible defensive coverage on forwards driving to the net.

--

That leaves me completely flabbergasted actually, but I'll give a good run at what this team needs to even get itself back to above average.

Cloned's Oiler Wishlist
2 Top 4 defensemen (preferably veterans) -- one puckmover, one defensive guy

3 forwards that can actually hit, check and keep possession in the offensive zone

1 backup goaltender that the coach actually has confidence in, or a new directive that Markkanen should play more often

A change of system that doesn't start with the letter C and end with the letter E with the letters 'ollaps' in between

Speedy forwards

Anything I missed?
Am I the only one that believes that at least half of these problems are coaching related?!

This time last year, MacT was getting peppered by us. He was public enemy #1.

Now: its the players and the team. Albeit, Klo made some moves that were built for a team 3-4 years in the future, but MacT has to take some blame. He has failed to adapt this teams play to their abilities.

Going in to this year, fans and pundits alike could not talk enough about the depth of our forwards. Proved false. Why? No D that can move the bisket up ice and create chances. A hole that roughly 95% of HF Oil posters recognized. Lowe did not address it though.

Why not? The price was TOO high. So he made a move that hurt this team in the short run but built us for a few years down the road. I stand by it: Lowe needs to move Smyth (in a package) for a steal return to a team looking to lift some silver in the offseason. If he doesn't, get used to what we have seen this season. Its going to be a long road back to the mid-1990s.

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:15 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
Am I the only one that believes that at least half of these problems are coaching related?!
I do think some of the problems are coaching related.
I'd also include Peeters in some of those coaching issues, but anyway.

It's not that either are bad... it's just that I feel they've lost this group. Just like players, coaches need to change teams sometimes and get a fresh perspective and outlook.

I'm in no way saying that if a coaching change was made that the problems would disappear, but it's also, in my mind, an issue right now with this club.

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:20 AM
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Well, to be fair, change 3 forwards to 2 forwards... Moreau is on the IR. I'd go as far to also say change the top 4 to 1 top 2 defenseman and a 4/5 guy to stabilize. Keep in mind that right now we're down two top 4 defensemen in Staios and Tjarnqvist.

Oh..

And get rid of Joffrey Lupul, because he's ****ing useless.

Oh, one more.

Nedved is a corpse. Don't pick him up next time.
I am not sure how Lupul could go from a potential 40 goal man to ****ing useless in half a season. He has had a rough go of it so far...he looks lost to me when I watch him. It also looks as if he is starting to take the brunt of the frustration over this teams poor season so far. It won't be long before the fans in Edmonton run this 23 year old one shot scorer out of town...c'est la vie.

Having said all that we do agree on Nedved. Never wanted him here in the first place...all he has managed to do is make a soft group of forwards even softer.

The more I watch this team the more I am convinced that they simply have no identity.


Last edited by guymez: 01-27-2007 at 01:26 AM.
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Old
01-27-2007, 01:25 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by faneuil View Post
I do think some of the problems are coaching related.
I'd also include Peeters in some of those coaching issues, but anyway.

It's not that either are bad... it's just that I feel they've lost this group. Just like players, coaches need to change teams sometimes and get a fresh perspective and outlook.

I'm in no way saying that if a coaching change was made that the problems would disappear, but it's also, in my mind, an issue right now with this club.
I agree. MacT is not a bad coach.

And coaching is an issue right now with this club. Just as it was an issue with this club a year ago. The run we took last year proved that this team, when properly motivated, can excel. The slide we experience during last year's regular season, and the ridiculous performance of this season, prove that the team is no longer responding to our coaching.

After the run last year, I cannot question the heart, character, skill, or commitment of the majority of players on this team. If we had reason to question MacT last year, we have even more reason to question him this year.

Worst signing this org has made: MacT to 4. Yuck. Get ready for the long haul.

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:29 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez View Post
I am not sure how Lupul could go from a potential 40 goal man to ****ing useless in half a season. He has had a rough go of it so far...he looks lost to me when I watch him. It also looks as if he is starting to take the brunt of the frustration over this teams poor season so far. It won't be long before the fans in Edmonton run this 23 year old one shot scorer out of town...c'est la vie.

Having said all that we do agree on Nedved. Never wanted him here in the first place...all he has managed to do is make a soft group of forwards even softer.

The more I watch this team the more I am convinced that they simply have no identity.
Just one comment (beer is clouding everything else?)

One shot scorer?

He has 13 goals this year.

How many do you think were on clean shots that he made?

3.

I mean, the guy has had this huge push about how amazing his shot is.. but how many times this season have we actually witnessed this shot?

That's extremely worrisome in my mind.

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:33 AM
  #13
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I agree with most of your post Cloned.

The forwards spend so much time chasing in the defensive zone, by the time they finally get it out of the zone, they're dog-tired and go off for a line change....we can never get a sufficient break-out or a rush into the offensive zone

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:36 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
Am I the only one that believes that at least half of these problems are coaching related?!

This time last year, MacT was getting peppered by us. He was public enemy #1.

Now: its the players and the team. Albeit, Klo made some moves that were built for a team 3-4 years in the future, but MacT has to take some blame. He has failed to adapt this teams play to their abilities.

Going in to this year, fans and pundits alike could not talk enough about the depth of our forwards. Proved false. Why? No D that can move the bisket up ice and create chances. A hole that roughly 95% of HF Oil posters recognized. Lowe did not address it though.

Why not? The price was TOO high. So he made a move that hurt this team in the short run but built us for a few years down the road. I stand by it: Lowe needs to move Smyth (in a package) for a steal return to a team looking to lift some silver in the offseason. If he doesn't, get used to what we have seen this season. Its going to be a long road back to the mid-1990s.
I actually agree with a lot of this.

A lot of my coaching complaints are implied. I'm not of the belief (yet) that MacT has lost this team -- that's a belief that will begin to fester if this team continues to underperform with better players in the future.

I do, however, think that he needs to tweak his system.

I know he's limited by what he's got on the backend. He can't employ a free-flowing, staggered defensive system because our defensemen simply aren't (a) mobile enough and (b) of sufficient positional awareness, to do so. So he employs a collapse defense.

I've ragged on this issue for a while now, but in today's game it was clearly evident imo. A collapse defense can hide the warts on your defense (namely lack of footspeed and poor one-on-one skills) by blocking a lot of shots. Unfortunately, it has a few disadvantages:

1. It's not conducive to the transition game. Forwards are caught out of position when our defensemen DO get the puck and that makes it all the more difficult for passing-deficient defensemen. How many times has the puck been kept in or turned over because of this?

2. It relies on the goaltender an awful lot to stop shots. And Roloson isn't young. He can't handle that kind of workload every game. It doesn't help that MacT doesn't play Jussi (although with a collapse defense, you need quality goaltending game-in, game-out, which Jussi doesn't always provide -- damned if you do, damned if you don't).

3. It leaves the points wide open for the opposition. Creative playmaking forwards like Thornton or dominant offensive defensemen like Visnovsky will tear this apart.

4. It's completely susceptible to forechecking pressure. Teams know how to play the Oilers and, quite frankly, it isn't that hard at the moment.

5. It's not conducive to maintaining offensive zone pressure. Our defensemen are already backing away from the offensive zone in a proactive collapse long before the opposition forwards reach our blue line.

6. It allows easy access to our zone. How many times have you seen our defensemen back in so quickly and so fast that the opposition team has a pinching defenseman left WIDE open?

7. It simply doesn't work with this group. We're so defensively inept, and our forwards are so poor at providing puck support, that we can't clear pucks. We can't make passes. We can't even stop opposition forwards from driving to the net. We lose battles all the time seemingly by inches. We lose positioning and leave forwards wide open.

The problem? It's probably the only system that has half a chance of succeeding right now with this defensive group.

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Old
01-27-2007, 01:36 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Just one comment (beer is clouding everything else?)

One shot scorer?

He has 13 goals this year.

How many do you think were on clean shots that he made?

3.

I mean, the guy has had this huge push about how amazing his shot is.. but how many times this season have we actually witnessed this shot?

That's extremely worrisome in my mind.
Agreed.

After being dubbed a "one shot scorer" you would think that you would at least see him get absolutely stoned a few times if he only has 13 in 48. But no. The reality of the situation is, he has underperformed to a level that even Oil fans are not accustomed to. Seriously, how far back to you have to go to find an Oilers player that lived up to his hyped potential?

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01-27-2007, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Just one comment (beer is clouding everything else?)

One shot scorer?

He has 13 goals this year.

How many do you think were on clean shots that he made?

3.

I mean, the guy has had this huge push about how amazing his shot is.. but how many times this season have we actually witnessed this shot?

That's extremely worrisome in my mind.
So you are defining Lupul as a player from his play in half a season?
I have watched him enough to know that he has lost his game with the Oilers this year. Funny...so have a lot of other players on this team.
Lowe has to be accountable for that. He is the one that determined the makeup of this team in October and what exactly have we got...a team that isn't gritty...can't score...can't move the puck up ice and can't play defence.
What a sad state of affairs.

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01-27-2007, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Cloned View Post
I actually agree with a lot of this.

A lot of my coaching complaints are implied. I'm not of the belief (yet) that MacT has lost this team -- that's a belief that will begin to fester if this team continues to underperform with better players in the future.

I do, however, think that he needs to tweak his system.

I know he's limited by what he's got on the backend. He can't employ a free-flowing, staggered defensive system because our defensemen simply aren't (a) mobile enough and (b) of sufficient positional awareness, to do so. So he employs a collapse defense.

I've ragged on this issue for a while now, but in today's game it was clearly evident imo. A collapse defense can hide the warts on your defense (namely lack of footspeed and poor one-on-one skills) by blocking a lot of shots. Unfortunately, it has a few disadvantages:

1. It's not conducive to the transition game. Forwards are caught out of position when our defensemen DO get the puck and that makes it all the more difficult for passing-deficient defensemen. How many times has the puck been kept in or turned over because of this?

2. It relies on the goaltender an awful lot to stop shots. And Roloson isn't young. He can't handle that kind of workload every game. It doesn't help that MacT doesn't play Jussi (although with a collapse defense, you need quality goaltending game-in, game-out, which Jussi doesn't always provide -- damned if you do, damned if you don't).

3. It leaves the points wide open for the opposition. Creative playmaking forwards like Thornton or dominant offensive defensemen like Visnovsky will tear this apart.

4. It's completely susceptible to forechecking pressure. Teams know how to play the Oilers and, quite frankly, it isn't that hard at the moment.

5. It's not conducive to maintaining offensive zone pressure. Our defensemen are already backing away from the offensive zone in a proactive collapse long before the opposition forwards reach our blue line.

6. It simply doesn't work with this group. We're so defensively inept, and our forwards are so poor at providing puck support, that we can't clear pucks. We can't make passes. We can't even stop opposition forwards from driving to the net. We lose battles all the time seemingly by inches. We lose positioning and leave forwards wide open.

The problem? It's probably the only system that has half a chance of succeeding right now with this defensive group.


Right on all points of your analysis. What this teams needs right now is a system similar to the Flames' system circa 2004. That is how this team can win. Depressing but true. Boring but successful.

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01-27-2007, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
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So you are defining Lupul as a player from his play in half a season?
I have watched him enough to know that he has lost his game with the Oilers this year. Funny...so have a lot of other players on this team.
Lowe has to be accountable for that. He is the one that determined the makeup of this team in October and what exactly have we got...a team that isn't gritty...can't score and can't play defence.
What a sad state of affairs.
I'm not defining him on his play in half a season (though I've obviously paid a lot more attention to him this season than any other...)

I agree that Lowe is very responsible for what is on the ice. Specifically - that he rushed the Pronger trade.

THAT SAID.

I've never liked Lupul. I didn't like him as a Duck, and I sure as hell don't like him now. He's going to score 20 this year, and they may honestly be the most 20 useless goals in Oiler history. I just find very few positives to take out of his game at this point, and to me the worst part is that he always appeared like he was a one-dimensional player..

And that one-dimension has been extremely underwhelming this season. Like I said - watch the NHL.com hilights, he has 3 goals scored on shots that weren't garbage goals. They all count the same..

But there's a difference when you have a guy like Ryan Smyth who makes everyone around him better and a guy like Joffrey Lupul who makes everyone around him worse scoring a garbage goal, is there not?

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01-27-2007, 01:45 AM
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What this teams needs right now is a system similar to the Flames' system circa 2004. That is how this team can win. Depressing but true. Boring but successful.
Whew. I've waited a very long time to get all of that off my chest in the way that I did. I feel a kind of relief now that it's finally done.

About the Flames' system... I'm not sure if even that would work for us at the moment. We don't have the energy or physicality in our roster to make the dump and chase game work, and we don't have the goaltending or defensemen to make the high pressure game work.

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01-27-2007, 01:45 AM
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So you are defining Lupul as a player from his play in half a season?
I have watched him enough to know that he has lost his game with the Oilers this year. Funny...so have a lot of other players on this team.
Lowe has to be accountable for that. He is the one that determined the makeup of this team in October and what exactly have we got...a team that isn't gritty...can't score and can't play defence.
What a sad state of affairs.
This goes back to my point that MacT has to take more credit for the poor performance this year.

Lupul has underperformed, as I have also said, but he was never expected to carry this team. He will rebound, but I sort of hope it is with another team - both for his sake and that of the Oilers. (Note to management: Edmonton is a serious hockey market. We love this game and are hard on our players. Home raises guys tend to crumbled under this pressure. Jbo - forget about him. Celine Dion - tough as nails but likely to turn in to Cory Cross is he ever dawns Oil silks. Only Mess could stand it - if you can find another Mess, sign him to a 20 year deal)

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01-27-2007, 01:47 AM
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About the Flames' system... I'm not sure if even that would work for us at the moment. We don't have the energy or physicality in our roster to make the dump and chase game work, and we don't have the goaltending or defensemen to make the high pressure game work.
If you are right, and I hope you're not, you are looking at the NYI.

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01-27-2007, 02:00 AM
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If you are right, and I hope you're not, you are looking at the NYI.
If they hire Roloson as GM...

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01-27-2007, 02:04 AM
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This goes back to my point that MacT has to take more credit for the poor performance this year.
Lupul has underperformed, as I have also said, but he was never expected to carry this team. He will rebound, but I sort of hope it is with another team - both for his sake and that of the Oilers. (Note to management: Edmonton is a serious hockey market. We love this game and are hard on our players. Home raises guys tend to crumbled under this pressure. Jbo - forget about him. Celine Dion - tough as nails but likely to turn in to Cory Cross is he ever dawns Oil silks. Only Mess could stand it - if you can find another Mess, sign him to a 20 year deal)
What has Lowe given MacT this season? A team with too many rookies and too many under acheiving and/or soft forwards. A team where MacT can't even send out a defensive paring (against the other teams best players) without including a rookie or an overly soft defenceman. A team where he needs to constantly find soft minutes for it's best offensive line (tandem). A team where he doesn't have any elite talent at all to rely on offensively and doesn't have enough grit to grind out a game.
A team where game after game defensive assignments are completely botched and he has no other options other than to try and help players to figure it out.
Nope...I am not buying it. This ones on Lowe IMO.

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01-27-2007, 02:16 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
What has Lowe given MacT this season? A team with too many rookies and too many under acheiving and/or soft forwards. A team where MacT can't even send out a defensive paring (against the other teams best players) without including a rookie or an overly soft defenceman. A team where he needs to constantly find soft minutes for it's best offensive line (tandem). A team where he doesn't have any elite talent at all to rely on offensively and doesn't have enough grit to grind out a game.
A team where game after game defensive assignments are completely botched and he has no other options other than to try and help players to figure it out.
Nope...I am not buying it. This ones on Lowe IMO.
And I'm sure Lowe is throwing away good trades left and right.

At the end of the day - regardless of the players they trade for this season - this team is not as good a Anaheim. Or San Jose. Or Calgary. Or Buffalo.

Lowe knows this. We should too.

It's time to take stock of not what we don't have. It's time to look at what we have.

Players like Stoll, Torres, Hemsky, Lupul, Smid, Greene, and Roy. This is a team built of rookies - one that consists of players that won't be rookies in 2009-2010.

Which is what Lowe should be planning for.

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01-27-2007, 02:17 AM
  #25
Vagabond
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The Oil still have a chance. The way they've been playing the last three months, they don't have a chance in h***, but if things can get shaken-up.. they have but a small chance.

If they become sellers, I'd like to see these players go.

Smith> ufa at seasons end and just cant seem to turn things around except for him blocking shots pretty well.

Tjarnqvist > Softer than the pilsbury dough boy!

Horcoff> He Horcoffs the puck up too much.. his effort is there, but nothin' else.

Petersen> I just flat out despise him.. no reason really.. same kinda hate I once had towards Pittis. He's taking up a roster spot that I'd rather see a rookie have.

Roloson> I like him.. sorta, but.. for the contract he has and his age, its just not worth it.

Sykora> Played/plays decent, but.. if its a fire sale, he's gotta go.

Nedved> Not a bad move for 600k, but what the h***, its a fire sale.

Lupul> I'm undecided still.. he just looks lost out their.. and has no chemestry with anybody on the team.

With these players leaving town, I'm not saying lets exchange all of 'em for picks.. I think we can actually get a couple major deals that can benefit the Oil for at least next season. Lets also offer that contract to Smyth and prepare for next season.. not taking away the possibilty of sqeaking into the playoffs this season, but hey, it really cant hurt more than it already does.

Players I would never consider trading:

Stoll> One of the few bright spots left on the team.

Hemsky> Young and full of talant, talant we have yet to see even.

Smyth> Unless he's unwilling to re-sign.. and Lowe knows beforehand, I'd trade him for a package deal that brings back a #1 d'man.

There's actually less players I'd be willing to keep rather than trade at the moment.

Moreau> He's the type of player the Oil really lack, since he's been out.. the Oil have started to struggle. Another must keep Oiler.. one amongst the few, pretty much a last Mohican.

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