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Are the Penguins already a top tier NHL side?

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Old
01-28-2007, 07:56 PM
  #51
Jason MacIsaac
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Brodeur said earlier in the year Pens are very close to a cup contender. You add a defensmen like Blake or Chara and they are cup contenders IMO.

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01-28-2007, 08:24 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Brodeur said earlier in the year Pens are very close to a cup contender. You add a defensmen like Blake or Chara and they are cup contenders IMO.
*Drools @ thought of Chara in a Pens jersey*

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01-28-2007, 08:28 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by swahnhennessy View Post
They're close, but not quite there. Upgrading their D would put them over the top. By next season they'll be serious contenders for the hardware.
I'll agree with that. The Pens are following the path the Thrashers did last season. Will come very close or make playoffs, but even if they do, will get smoked. However,by next season, the Pens should be more elite.

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01-28-2007, 08:30 PM
  #54
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Depends on which sides of the bed Crosby slept last night.

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01-28-2007, 08:46 PM
  #55
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So a few wins and Pens are a top team? please! they have been inconsistant all season for petes sake! when they win they do great but when they do bad they are really bad. Pens fans get way too excited when we get a few wins together and play good and we go bad for some games and some say Pens will finish last....

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01-28-2007, 09:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
You add a defensmen like Blake or Chara and they are cup contenders IMO.
That assumes that experience does not matter.

Hardly.

Even in the Nuuuuu NHL, it takes more than raw skill (of which the Pens have in ample amounts) and the promise of youth.

Outside of Recchi, the Pens have no experience to speak of. They will have to earn a playoff birth, and lose in the playoffs before they understand what it takes to win in the playoffs.

Right of passage.

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01-28-2007, 09:52 PM
  #57
Jason MacIsaac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
That assumes that experience does not matter.

Hardly.

Even in the Nuuuuu NHL.
Well Blake or Chara would add a lot of experience and when you have a generational talent like Crosby, normal recipes for a Stanley Cup gets thrown out the window. With one tower of power on the blueline Crosby can carry this team pretty far. They still need Fleury to play pretty darn good.

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01-28-2007, 09:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Brodeur said earlier in the year Pens are very close to a cup contender. You add a defensmen like Blake or Chara and they are cup contenders IMO.
Hate to tell you, but there are probably at least 15 teams that are 2 players away from being seriously contenders.

And top notch defencemen don't grow on trees(i know....I tried)

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01-28-2007, 09:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
...when you have a generational talent like Crosby, normal recipes for a Stanley Cup gets thrown out the window.
Wayne Gretzky (four unsuccessful trips to the playoffs before a Cup) and Mario Lemieux (six seasons before a Cup) would beg to differ about that.

Not suggesting that it will be the exact same path for #87. But to underestimate the value of experience (or, in the case of this Pens team, any experience, whatsoever) come the post-season, as is common around these parts, is misguided, to be kind.

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01-28-2007, 09:57 PM
  #60
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Well, with Crosby anything is possible. You can tell this guy means business every time he's out there, so I'm not counting them out. Once some of those players realize their true potential the Pens will be up there in the rankings. As for now, I agree that they have been too inconsistent to expect anything really exceptional this season. Give it a year or two

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01-28-2007, 09:58 PM
  #61
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I think all they need is another good defenseman...

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01-28-2007, 09:58 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Well Blake or Chara would add a lot of experience and when you have a generational talent like Crosby, normal recipes for a Stanley Cup gets thrown out the window. With one tower of power on the blueline Crosby can carry this team pretty far. They still need Fleury to play pretty darn good.
Yeah, sorry but even with Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Recchi and Gonchar scoring from the blueline, Pens are no match offensively for teams like the Sabres,Sens in a series.

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01-28-2007, 10:01 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by octopi View Post
Yeah, sorry but even with Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Recchi and Gonchar scoring from the blueline, Pens are no match offensively for teams like the Sabres,Sens in a series.
...Nor a match for NJ or Carolina, when it comes to knowing what it takes to win in the postseason. And so on.

***
This is not fantasy league, where you just drop names on to a lineup and Presto!, they win. The dynamics of the game is entirely different once the puck is dropped in mid-April, anyone who has bothered to follow the playoffs knows as much.

Been there, done matters. Even TB and Carolina, two teams that seemingly came out of nowhere, had to expeirence playoff loss before they could win.

To expect any newbie team, virtually void of any veterans, to win in their first post-season is delusional.

That is not a knock on Crosby (who is destined to lead a team to a Cup) nor his talented teamates. It's just reality. Once recognizes that this is hockeyfuture and patience is nil, but some really need some perspective here.


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01-28-2007, 10:01 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Wayne Gretzky (four unsuccessful trips to the playoffs before a Cup) and Mario Lemieux (six seasons before a Cup) would beg to differ about that.

Not suggesting that it will be the exact same path for #87. But to underestimate the value of experience (or, in the case of this Pens team, any experience, whatsoever) come the post-season, as is common around these parts, is misguided, to be kind.
Tampa Bay or Carolina didn't exactly have a wealth of experience on their teams when they won their cups. Neither of those teams had a top flight defense either. It takes timely goaltending and when you have Crosby on your team, it makes it a little easier.

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01-28-2007, 10:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Well Blake or Chara would add a lot of experience and when you have a generational talent like Crosby, normal recipes for a Stanley Cup gets thrown out the window. With one tower of power on the blueline Crosby can carry this team pretty far. They still need Fleury to play pretty darn good.
Pass on both especially Chara as his price tag is WAY too much unless there was an agreement in writing (like a trade agreement contract) where Pens trade with Boston for some help to finish the season and hopefully playoffs if Bruins are out then they reverse the trade afterwards so what Pens traded to Bruins comes back in exgange for Chara then i'd pull the trigger.

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01-28-2007, 10:03 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopi View Post
Yeah, sorry but even with Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Recchi and Gonchar scoring from the blueline, Pens are no match offensively for teams like the Sabres,Sens in a series.
They average about the same amount of goals as Ottawa, Buffalo is really the only team with more firepower then the Pens in the east.

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01-28-2007, 10:06 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by octopi View Post
Yeah, sorry but even with Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Recchi and Gonchar scoring from the blueline, Pens are no match offensively for teams like the Sabres,Sens in a series.
Well I am Pen's fan, and I am in not taking a playoff spot for guaranteed. Not at all. There are too many games to be played and the East is a log jam.

I do think they are capable of making it.

As far as being outmatched when they get there. Perhaps. But the Pen's have do have a major factor that makes them capable of winning any series. And that is Fleury.

Not saying he will do a Cam Ward and win the Cup, but he is that good, imo, that it is possible.

A goaltender can be the difference in any series and Fleury has that capablity.

Yeah, Crosby is the MVP of the team, but Fleury is not far behind. He has been amazing.

Fleury does not have any experience in the playoffs, and that could be a factor. Perhaps not. But the talent and ability are there in goal, that the Pen's could win against anyone.

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01-28-2007, 10:08 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Tampa Bay or Carolina didn't exactly have a wealth of experience on their teams when they won their cups. Neither of those teams had a top flight defense either. It takes timely goaltending and when you have Crosby on your team, it makes it a little easier.
TB had more playoff experience than Pittsburgh currently does. (Also, check where their core - Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis and Khabibbulin - was in terms of collective NHL seasons compared to the Pens' core.) And Carolina was in the playoffs in 1999, '01, and '02 (in the Finals) before winning it all last season.

Show me where Brind'amour, Wesley, Hedican, Cole, etc. - all with prior Cup Finals experience - can be found on this current Pens team.

Likewise, TB and Carolina clearly had superior defensive teams to Pittsburgh; to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Just as "a generational talent" like #99, #66, Kobe, Lebron, MJ and everyone else had to pay their playoffs dues before winning the ring, so too will #87. If one thinks that wet-behind-the-ears Malkin, Staal, Whitney, Fleury and the like are ready to win in the post-season this year, I'll take that bet...at any odds.

This is a truly silly disucssion. It's humorous how experience means nothing to some HFers. Curious why NHL GMs of contenders always look for that element come the deadline. They must not have a clue.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-28-2007 at 10:18 PM.
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01-28-2007, 10:13 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by td_ice View Post
Fleury does not have any experience in the playoffs, and that could be a factor. Perhaps not. But the talent and ability are there in goal, that the Pen's could win against anyone.
Hard to say. All of those trips to the finals in the AHL might count for something. I would hope anyway.

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01-28-2007, 10:15 PM
  #70
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Hard to say. All of those trips to the finals in the AHL might count for something. I would hope anyway.
I should have clarified and stated, NHL playoff experience.

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01-28-2007, 10:15 PM
  #71
Jason MacIsaac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
TB had more than Pittsburgh currently does. And Carolina was in the playoffs in 1999, '01, and '02 (in the Finals) before winning it all last season.

Show me where Brind'amour, Wesley, Hedican, Cole, etc. - all with prior Cup Finals experience - can be found on this current Pens team.

Likewise, TB and Carolina clearly had superior defensive teams to Pittsburgh; to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

Just as "a generational talent" like #99, #66, Kobe, Lebron, MJ and everyone else had to pay their playoffs dues before winnng the ring, so too will #87.

This is a truly silly disucssion. It's humorous how experience means nothing to some HFers. Curious why NHL GMs of contenders always look for that element come the deadline. They must not have a clue.
Gonchar (cup finals) and Recchi two stanley cups plus any vetren they add to their lineup by the end of the season. The team you look at now isn't cup ready but with a few additions they are.

Once again, you clearly are not following the discussion, sure Carolina and Tampa Bay's defense are better then the penguins. I didn't say it wasn't. What you seemly fail to realize is that I said adding a Chara or Blake would make them the contender and adding one of those defensmen would significantly upgrade their defense going into the playoffs.

You keep saying they don't have the experience or the defense but those two issues would be covered by a deadline trade.

Your right, this discussion is silly, you keep running way too far ahead.

Also, Pittsburgh currently has more goals with 4 games in hand.

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01-28-2007, 10:16 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by td_ice View Post
I should have clarified and stated, NHL playoff experience.
So QMJHL playoffs, WJC pressure, AHL playoffs experience counts for nothing?

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01-28-2007, 10:20 PM
  #73
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I should have clarified and stated, NHL playoff experience.
I knew what you meant. I was actually trying to support your argument. Sorry for the confusion. I was just saying that it really is a wildcard, but there may be some upside due to his AHL playoff experience. Even though the Pens have sucked every year he's been there before this year, WBS has been great and gone far in the playoffs. That's something that most people probably don't realize about him.

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01-28-2007, 10:20 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
So QMJHL playoffs, WJC pressure, AHL playoffs experience counts for nothing?
Compared to the NHL? Absolutely not.

Heck, while at it, why not throw in PeeWees?

We're talking about the most intense two+ months of hockey grind that exists, at the highest level of competition on earth.

Does anyone actually think otherwise?

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01-28-2007, 10:20 PM
  #75
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So QMJHL playoffs, WJC pressure, AHL playoffs experience counts for nothing?
LOL. Probably shouldn't go there after the that bad goal that we all know about from the WJC...

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