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01-29-2007, 03:35 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
Fair enough. Like I said, I am far from an expert and was just going by the list. Still in my biased, and poorly educated (from the flyers side) opinion Id take the Rangers youngsters over Philly's.

Even if we consider the two groups even from a young talent point of view the fact of the matter is we are still able to compete AND have the talent stocked up. Either way its crazy talk to be jealous of the Flyers right now.
I think people are getting caught up in the actual comparison of talent in terms of being envious of the Flyers, no one in their right mind would trade our organization for theirs right now. I think daves point was that he was envious of their mindset. They acknowledge where they are and are going about things the right way. As oppose to what we did for 9 years which was put bandaids on something that needed surgery year in and year out.

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01-29-2007, 03:35 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
Fair enough. Like I said, I am far from an expert and was just going by the list. Still in my biased, and poorly educated (from the flyers side) opinion Id take the Rangers youngsters over Philly's.

Even if we consider the two groups even from a young talent point of view the fact of the matter is we are still able to compete AND have the talent stocked up. Either way its crazy talk to be jealous of the Flyers right now.
Obviously I said that tongue-in-cheek. I understand that if you compare the talent on both teams right now, the Rangers MAY have an edge, both young and old.

The only thing to be envious of is that the Flyers realize they have a problem and have already started trying to fix it. They're not going out looking for over-the-hill veterans to help them reach the playoffs, where 'anything can happen'.

But us, we're still looking for band-aids to fix a broken leg of a system.

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01-29-2007, 03:36 PM
  #28
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Philly has "orange outs", uh, nothing to envy there!


...orange wigs, pff, what do they think they are, islanders?

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01-29-2007, 03:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
I think people are getting caught up in the actual comparison of talent in terms of being envious of the Flyers, no one in their right mind would trade our organization for theirs right now. I think daves point was that he was envious of their mindset. They acknowledge where they are and are going about things the right way. As oppose to what we did for 9 years which was put bandaids on something that needed surgery year in and year out.
Tom that's freaky, we posted at the same time and pretty much said the exact same thing.

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01-29-2007, 03:42 PM
  #30
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Well, its a lot easier to make that final decision when you are in dead last place. When you are strongly in the hunt for a playoff spot things become a little harder. We have plenty of young guys who can start contributing between now and 2 years from now. We don't need a full dismantle to re-stock ourselves.

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01-29-2007, 03:48 PM
  #31
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I agree with you. It's hard not to envy a team that's consistently been one of the league's elite for over a decade (only downside is no cup), and that is able to approach the rebuild properly. Basically, in 2-3 years they'll be contending again with a solid farm underneath ala Senators/Sabres/Predators, etc. And we'll still be scratching on the doors of mediocrity.

I really find it difficult to accept that the majority of our fans can be so shortsighted (willing to trade 10+ years of a respected, contending team in a few years for a few possible playoff games NOW).

Honestly now...

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01-29-2007, 03:49 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
Well, its a lot easier to make that final decision when you are in dead last place. When you are strongly in the hunt for a playoff spot things become a little harder. We have plenty of young guys who can start contributing between now and 2 years from now. We don't need a full dismantle to re-stock ourselves.
Agreed.

But we don't need to trade the 'plenty of young guys' to teams that are dumping veterans.

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01-29-2007, 03:50 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Tom that's freaky, we posted at the same time and pretty much said the exact same thing.
Wow, that is freaky

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01-29-2007, 03:57 PM
  #34
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I've seen us go down this road too many times and I am tired of it. I got excited when we picked up Anson Carter, Kovalev etc. It doesn't work, and we just never seem to learn this. We are heading down a never ending road of mediocrity if we continue doing this.

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01-29-2007, 04:09 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Agreed.

But we don't need to trade the 'plenty of young guys' to teams that are dumping veterans.
I agree with that for the most part. You and a lot of others are getting worked up over trades that havent happened. If a guy like Forsberg comes onto the market its stupid not to at least inquire as to what its going to take to get him. Why don't we postpone the sky is falling attitude untill something happens. If the Rangers overpay for Forsberg or for any other aging vet then Ill be right there behind you with a torch as we get a mob together and go after Sather.

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01-29-2007, 04:27 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
I agree with that for the most part. You and a lot of others are getting worked up over trades that havent happened. If a guy like Forsberg comes onto the market its stupid not to at least inquire as to what its going to take to get him. Why don't we postpone the sky is falling attitude untill something happens. If the Rangers overpay for Forsberg or for any other aging vet then Ill be right there behind you with a torch as we get a mob together and go after Sather.
I'm talking about potential trades that are being rumored in the press and discussed here. And I'm pointing out the difference between the Ranges and the Flyers.

The Flyers are getting rid of older guys, trying to get younger. Sure, they're going to be bad for a year or two, but they'll re-load and come back strong.

We're talking about TAKING older guys from the Flyers. Heck, why don't we just relieve them of Derian Hatcher too, since our D is so terrible?

This thread was to point out the different mindset of the two organizations, not to get worked up over a trade (that's another thread!). And I agree that in 2-3 years the Flyers will be young AND good, while we'll still be trading for older guys and never actually rebuilding.

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01-29-2007, 04:30 PM
  #37
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I envy teams that win Stanley Cups. By whatever means.

Which places me in the minority on HF.

For some on this board, the "rebuild" is orgasmic, more important than winning itself.

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01-29-2007, 04:39 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Just wanted to clarify that if the Flyers didn't graduate 3 top prospects(Carter, Richards, Pitkanen) so quick they wouldve been in the top ten at least. Plus before the season they didn't know Nodl & Bartulis were gonna have breakout years, as well as having Giroux & Downie, both highly regarded players.
Lets also not overlook that they have also not missed the playoffs is about a decade.

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01-29-2007, 04:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I envy teams that win Stanley Cups. By whatever means.

Which places me in the minority on HF.

For some on this board, the "rebuild" is orgasmic, more important than winning itself.
Don't you wish that we could actually assemble a team over time that becomes a contender year in and year out for a good number of years? Haven't we had enough of the over the hill all star teams that go nowhere and rob our cupboards of any hope for the future? We've done it one way and it hasn't worked. Why don't we try it the other way for a few years and see if that doesn't work out better?

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01-29-2007, 04:40 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
I'm talking about potential trades that are being rumored in the press and discussed here. And I'm pointing out the difference between the Ranges and the Flyers.

The Flyers are getting rid of older guys, trying to get younger. Sure, they're going to be bad for a year or two, but they'll re-load and come back strong.

We're talking about TAKING older guys from the Flyers. Heck, why don't we just relieve them of Derian Hatcher too, since our D is so terrible?

This thread was to point out the different mindset of the two organizations, not to get worked up over a trade (that's another thread!). And I agree that in 2-3 years the Flyers will be young AND good, while we'll still be trading for older guys and never actually rebuilding.
Come on, lets not compare Forsberg to any other random washed up vet. When he's playing hes a complete game changer. Whether he can stay in the lineup is the question. But to not at least consider the option is silly.

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01-29-2007, 05:45 PM
  #41
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Dave, I'm not sure I get what your trying to say or what your advocating.

1) .Take a risk on someone like Forsberg at the right price(if you think there is any).

. Fire Sather, Renney and Maloney.

2) .Stand Pat. Make no changes. Take no risks, etc.

.but still Fire Sather, Renney and Maloney.

3) .Something else.

Please clarify.

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01-29-2007, 05:47 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Don't you wish that we could actually assemble a team over time that becomes a contender year in and year out for a good number of years? Haven't we had enough of the over the hill all star teams that go nowhere and rob our cupboards of any hope for the future? We've done it one way and it hasn't worked. Why don't we try it the other way for a few years and see if that doesn't work out better?
Well said.

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01-29-2007, 05:47 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
They've lost so many games it has become clear to them what has to be done. The coach and GM are already gone, and they're thinking of trading one of their older assets to get younger. The team knows it can't stay on the same course and be successful, so they're moving on.

Unlike the Rangers, who also suck, but win just enough games to make you think we don't really need to change anything.

We have a general manager who has the worst won-loss record (196-258) of any Ranger GM in at least the last 40 years, and hasn't even been able to win ONE playoff game! Not one!!!

We're all led to believe by our trusty management that we've got lots of help coming from below, just continue to be patient until it gets here. Unless there is a big name available, of course, then forget the youth and go for it now. We can go for youth again next year. Until there is another veteran available.

And we follow a blueprint that has proven over the last ten years doesn't work.

Having a bad day? You seem very bitter on the boards today about the boys. Hopefully a win (or a loss in your case) against the Bruins will cheer you up.

I think we have a few seasons on the Flyers BTW, what they are going to do now - we did in 04' with Leetch..ect..ect..

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01-29-2007, 05:49 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fireonk View Post
Come on, lets not compare Forsberg to any other random washed up vet. When he's playing hes a complete game changer. Whether he can stay in the lineup is the question. But to not at least consider the option is silly.
When healthy hes still one of the games best.

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01-29-2007, 05:50 PM
  #45
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Originally posted by Dave4:

"And I agree that in 2-3 years the Flyers will be young AND good, while we'll still be trading for older guys and never actually rebuilding."

How exactly do you know this?

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01-29-2007, 05:51 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
I think people are getting caught up in the actual comparison of talent in terms of being envious of the Flyers, no one in their right mind would trade our organization for theirs right now. I think daves point was that he was envious of their mindset. They acknowledge where they are and are going about things the right way. As oppose to what we did for 9 years which was put bandaids on something that needed surgery year in and year out.
The ironic point about that statement is that the Flyers are supposedly using the model of the 2003-4 Rangers for their strategy - deal off vets, re-stock the cupboard, sign the right UFAs and be back in playoff contention in short order.

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01-29-2007, 06:44 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Don't you wish that we could actually assemble a team over time that becomes a contender year in and year out for a good number of years? Haven't we had enough of the over the hill all star teams that go nowhere and rob our cupboards of any hope for the future? We've done it one way and it hasn't worked. Why don't we try it the other way for a few years and see if that doesn't work out better?
It's HF myth that a team has to be in chronic rebuild mode, "take a step back" to take two steps forward. The best franchises compete, while simultaneously re-loading, incrementally. That way, they remain playoff worthy "year in and year out" as you say. (Look across the Hudson and to Detroit.)

Who are your "over-the-hill" stars today? If you want to purge the likes of Jagr, Straka, Shanahan, et al, your choice, but that is forced losing, not rebuilding. And the promise of abstract futures are just that. NYR added three solid rookies to its team last season (Prucha, Lundqvist, Tyutin). It has a pipeline of kids in different stages of development. And it's competing for a playoff spot - a point that seemingly matters little to a few fans, but is important to the franchise.

Seems to me that your team is positioned well to continue to take steps forward, incrementally...as opposed to the white flag "blow it up and start all over" approach that fans of 2/3s of the teams on this board wish for daily.

The post-CBA version of NYR hasn't captured the Cup after 1 1/2 years - that's a reason to rebuild and force losing? Netting 100 points and a playoff spot last year, and another good chance at the playoffs this year, along with the promise of kids on the horizon, is the very definition of building something that will be sustainable.

...And its not the least bit comparable to what transpired at MSG, circa 1998-2004.

No one is suggesting selling out your kids for a gang of veterans. Not at all. But that's a false choice to begin with.

Best way to win down the road is to start winning now. And, to be honest, at least among some, "rebuilding" is a means of shirking responsibility to have to produce now. Unfortunately, most NHL GMs do not have the luxury of the oldschool 5-year rebuilding plans anymore.

Just my opinion.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-29-2007 at 07:12 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old
01-29-2007, 06:58 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
It's HF myth that a team has to be in chronic rebuild mode, "take a step back" to take two steps forward. The best franchises compete, while simultaneously re-loading, incrementally. That way, they remain playoff worthy "year in and year out" as you say. (Look across the Hudson and to Detroit.)

Who are your "over-the-hill" stars today? If you want to purge the likes of Jagr, Straka, Shanahan, et al, your choice, but that is forced losing, not rebuilding. And the promise of abstract futures are just that. NYR added three solid rookies to its team last season (Prucha, Lundqvist, Tyutin). It has a pipeline of kids in different stages of development. And it's competing for a playoff spot - a point that seemingly matters little to a few fans, but is important to the franchise.

Seems to me that your team is positioned well to continue to take steps forward, incrementally...as opposed to the white flag "blow it up and start all over" approach that fans of 2/3s of the teams on this board wish for daily.

The post-CBA version of NYR hasn't captured the Cup after 1 1/2 years - that's a reason to rebuild and force losing? Netting 100 points and a playoff spot last year, and another good chance at the playoffs this year, along with the promise of kids on the horizon, is the very definition of building something that will be sustainable.

...And its not the least bit comparable to what transpired at MSG, circa 1998-2004.

No one is suggesting selling out your kids for a ganag of veterans. Not at all. But that's a false choice to begin with.

Best way to win down the road is to start winning now. And, to be honest, at least among some, "rebuilding" is a means of shirking responsiblity to have to produce now. Unfortunately, most NHL GMs do not have the luxury of the oldschool 5-year rebuilding plans anymore.

Just my opinion.
There you go again, using common sense. Are you sure you're an Islander fan? Actually, I think some of us, even those like myself who longed for getting off the treadmill, actually look at this team the way you've described it. Part of the problem is that most of the fanbase still doesn't trust this management team.

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01-29-2007, 07:26 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
The ironic point about that statement is that the Flyers are supposedly using the model of the 2003-4 Rangers for their strategy - deal off vets, re-stock the cupboard, sign the right UFAs and be back in playoff contention in short order.
Except that the Flyers won't be looking to add a player like Jagr a few weeks before the deadline in a vain attempt to make the playoffs. In not doing so and by selling off their talent, the Flyers will assure themselves of a top-3 pick, something they will get in their first year of missing the playoffs while the Rangers have not been able to in how many under Smith/Sather?

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01-29-2007, 07:36 PM
  #50
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Except that the Flyers won't be looking to add a player like Jagr a few weeks before the deadline in a vain attempt to make the playoffs. In not doing so and by selling off their talent, the Flyers will assure themselves of a top-3 pick, something they will get in their first year of missing the playoffs while the Rangers have not been able to in how many under Smith/Sather?
C'mon, dedalus, the deal was in January, over a month-and-a-half before the trade deadline. The decision to break it down was in late February when the bottom completely fell out. The Flyers, while not trading for a Jagr type player, have traded for both Zhitnik and York, not exactly breaking things down. The bottom fell out a lot earlier for them, allowing them to make that decision a lot sooner.

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