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Old
02-05-2007, 07:23 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by billpo View Post
I agree. But just because thise other teams made mistakes, it doesn't mean we have to. for example. Should the SENS be followers, or Leaders????
The market dictates the value of said player though. If we keep letting players walk because we don't want to pay market value for them we are going to have a team full of second tier players and fight for a playoff spot every season.

So next year when Spezza and Heatleys contracts come up and they ask for 6-7 million dollars a year do we let them walk to because they are to expensive. Where does it end? Do we ever pay market value for our players or do we expect everyone to take less to stay here.

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02-05-2007, 07:24 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Frank Finnigan View Post
joe corvo
I like Joe Corvo but he is no Phillips or Redden and a team full of players like him is in for a world of trouble.

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02-05-2007, 07:32 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
I like Joe Corvo but he is no Phillips or Redden and a team full of players like him is in for a world of trouble.
sorry, that should have been 'joe corvo '

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02-05-2007, 09:18 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
The market dictates the value of said player though. If we keep letting players walk because we don't want to pay market value for them we are going to have a team full of second tier players and fight for a playoff spot every season.

So next year when Spezza and Heatleys contracts come up and they ask for 6-7 million dollars a year do we let them walk to because they are to expensive. Where does it end? Do we ever pay market value for our players or do we expect everyone to take less to stay here.
I don't want a team with second tier players getting paid first tier money, and Redden is a perfect example of this. So to answer your question. I just want players to get paid what they are worth, not ehat the odd dumb **** owner decided to give someone. The strike we had is proving to be all for nothing. The owners have learned nothing, and this league will be in trouble very soon.


Last edited by NyQuil: 02-05-2007 at 11:01 AM. Reason: swear filter
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02-05-2007, 09:20 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Preeat View Post
Do you think that Phillips will take any old offer he gets from the Sens? He's going to want fair market value most likely and that's what it might cost Ottawa. He may take somewhat of a hometown discount but if he makes it to UFA status, other teams will likely offer him more money than us. One team I see doing that is Boston. I know Chiarelli over there would love to reunite Phillips with Chara. If we happen to win the Cup this year it could be good or bad in terms of resigning Phillips. He could have a heck of a run in the playoffs and get more than what he is worth currently (kinda like what happened with McKee) or he may take the hometown discount to stay in Ottawa where hopefully he wins the cup.
He will have the same "heck of a run" we've had for years.....

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02-05-2007, 09:46 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by billpo View Post
I don't want a team with second tier players getting paid first tier money, and Redden is a perfect example of this. So to answer your question. I just want players to get paid what they are worth, not ehat the odd dumb **** owner decided to give someone. The strike we had is proving to be all for nothing. The owners have learned nothing, and this league will be in trouble very soon.
Actually the strike capped salaries. A team can only spend so much. If everyteam can spend 44 million that means the league is making money. Cap only goes up when league revenue goes up.

As for Redden some other team would have gave him 6.5 million. Lets say we don't sign him. Who do we get as a replacement?


Last edited by NyQuil: 02-05-2007 at 11:11 AM. Reason: QDP - swear filter
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02-05-2007, 10:41 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Actually the strike capped salaries. A team can only spend so much. If everyteam can spend 44 million that means the league is making money. Cap only goes up when league revenue goes up.

As for Redden some other team would have gave him 6.5 million. Lets say we don't sign him. Who do we get as a replacement?
I know how the cap works. And as far as who we get as a replacement, We'll see who is available.

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02-05-2007, 10:43 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Actually the strike capped salaries. A team can only spend so much. If everyteam can spend 44 million that means the league is making money. Cap only goes up when league revenue goes up.

As for Redden some other team would have gave him 6.5 million. Lets say we don't sign him. Who do we get as a replacement?
you of all people must have a list. Provide a list for me, and I'll pick a few.....

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02-05-2007, 11:03 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by billpo View Post
you of all people must have a list. Provide a list for me, and I'll pick a few.....
Defensemen that were signed last off season

Spacek 3.33 3yrs
Salei 3.0 4yrs
Blake 6.0 2yrs
Johnsson 4.8 4yrs
Kuba 3.0 3yrs
Kubina 5.0 4yrs

Redden 6.5 2 yrs

Those were the offensive defensemen signed last season and if we let Redden go and got in a bidding war for any of those guys there salaries would be anywhere from 500K-1million dollars higher on a per year bases.

I like the cap flexibility the Redden deal allows, I am not a fan of 3/4 year deals unless it’s a core player at a reduced salary.

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02-05-2007, 11:20 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Defensemen that were signed last off season

Spacek 3.33 3yrs
Salei 3.0 4yrs
Blake 6.0 2yrs
Johnsson 4.8 4yrs
Kuba 3.0 3yrs
Kubina 5.0 4yrs

Redden 6.5 2 yrs

Those were the offensive defensemen signed last season and if we let Redden go and got in a bidding war for any of those guys there salaries would be anywhere from 500K-1million dollars higher on a per year bases.

I like the cap flexibility the Redden deal allows, I am not a fan of 3/4 year deals unless it’s a core player at a reduced salary.
From what I see here, most of these guys are a lot cheaper than Redden, excluding Blake.

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02-05-2007, 11:21 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Defensemen that were signed last off season

Spacek 3.33 3yrs
Salei 3.0 4yrs
Blake 6.0 2yrs
Johnsson 4.8 4yrs
Kuba 3.0 3yrs
Kubina 5.0 4yrs

Redden 6.5 2 yrs

Those were the offensive defensemen signed last season and if we let Redden go and got in a bidding war for any of those guys there salaries would be anywhere from 500K-1million dollars higher on a per year bases.

I like the cap flexibility the Redden deal allows, I am not a fan of 3/4 year deals unless it’s a core player at a reduced salary.

Of course Redden is better than all of the above. If a washed up Blake gets $6M per year, while an UFA Chara gets $7.5 M a year, Redden was easily going to make $6.5 M or more in the free agent market.

Chara was my favourite Senator and I was pissed when Redden was retained over him. But looking back, seeing how the post-lockout NHL is operating, I am glad Muckler decided to keep Reds over Chara. In the "New" NHL, I think the value of a premier puck moving (2-way) d-man is higher than a pure shutdown d-man. While Chara has a great shot from the point, he is no Redden in terms of leading the rush from behind the blueline.

As for the topic itself, I am glad Muckler is talking to the Phillips camp about an extension. Chara's shutdown game has been adequately replaced by quality minutes from Uncle Phil and the emergence of Volchenkov as one of the best shutdown guys in the game today.

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02-05-2007, 11:23 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by billpo View Post
From what I see here, most of these guys are a lot cheaper than Redden, excluding Blake.
So would they have the same impact as Redden to the team?

Are they as good as Redden? they are cheaper for a reason

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02-05-2007, 01:06 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
So would they have the same impact as Redden to the team?

Are they as good as Redden? they are cheaper for a reason

Hmmmm. Lets see....did Redden amke it to the all star team....did any of those guys make it to the all star team.....

Unlike you, I don't think Redden is that big of an impact, and the only reason those guys are cheaper is because we overpaid for Redden.

An Impact player takes control of a game, and makes the rest of the players better around them. An Impact player is noticed when he goes on the ice and players from opposing teams don't like to play ahaimst them.

So, yes they are as good as Redden.

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02-05-2007, 01:09 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by billpo View Post
Hmmmm. Lets see....did Redden amke it to the all star team....did any of those guys make it to the all star team.....
At least you're open about the fact that you use the all-star game as your method of determining player worth. Most people would try and deny it.

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02-05-2007, 01:11 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by billpo View Post
Hmmmm. Lets see....did Redden amke it to the all star team....did any of those guys make it to the all star team.....

Unlike you, I don't think Redden is that big of an impact, and the only reason those guys are cheaper is because we overpaid for Redden.

An Impact player takes control of a game, and makes the rest of the players better around them. An Impact player is noticed when he goes on the ice and players from opposing teams don't like to play ahaimst them.

So, yes they are as good as Redden.
Sens are 24-11-2 when Redden plays. An impact player makes his team win. The numbers speak for themselves.

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02-05-2007, 01:22 PM
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billpo enough already

honest to god, why even comment about redden anymore.

it's a losing battle everytime.

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02-05-2007, 03:45 PM
  #67
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At least you're open about the fact that you use the all-star game as your method of determining player worth. Most people would try and deny it.

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02-05-2007, 03:58 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
Spacek 3.33 3yrs
Salei 3.0 4yrs
Blake 6.0 2yrs
Johnsson 4.8 4yrs
Kuba 3.0 3yrs
Kubina 5.0 4yrs

Redden 6.5 2 yrs

Those were the offensive defensemen signed last season
Thanks, interesting, all higher than I was thinking. At $6mil, they sacrifice a 4 year contract. At 4 years, they sacrifice the $6mil. They all seem overpaid. GMs have valued defensmen very highly. They assign good ones much more value than we as fans do apparently.

In that marketplace, Redden seems properly valued. Still the question of maximising cap dollars remains.

With the current team, I think Redden is still worth it. But when our other players become more expensive, Billpos argument will become more persuasive.

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02-05-2007, 04:10 PM
  #69
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In that marketplace, Redden seems properly valued. Still the question of maximising cap dollars remains.

With the current team, I think Redden is still worth it. But when our other players become more expensive, Billpos argument will become more persuasive.
I agree about the marketplace. The only player worth taking over Redden in dollars/performace is Spacek. Of course, I'm sure a couple of people... maybe even Billpo will point out that Salei and Kuba are putting up some numbers this year.... because they play for weak teams and are being shoe-horned into gawdawful amounts of PP time for some unknown reason.

Certainly... but as it should be; Gerber will draw more fire in that respect than Redden. An with one more year left, I'm not exactly sure what kind of strain Redden's contract could put on us.

There's nothing wrong with this years team and we have a vague idea about next years team... but no clear idea that Redden's contract will cripple us... into say, trading Spezza for Jeff Cowan.

So Billpo, util you can show a clear problem with this team caused by Redden's contract... I will consider each and every one of your posts a nonsensical rant, spurred by some unknown personal hatred of Redden... because he did something like hit on your girlfriend or didn't sign your jersey.

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02-05-2007, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post

With the current team, I think Redden is still worth it. But when our other players become more expensive, Billpos argument will become more persuasive.
I have no problem moving Redden in order to keep the core together. I am all for that. As this season stands though I have no problem paying Redden because we can afford it.

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02-05-2007, 04:14 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
Thanks, interesting, all higher than I was thinking. At $6mil, they sacrifice a 4 year contract. At 4 years, they sacrifice the $6mil. They all seem overpaid. GMs have valued defensmen very highly. They assign good ones much more value than we as fans do apparently.

In that marketplace, Redden seems properly valued. Still the question of maximising cap dollars remains.
I dug up a post from earlier in the season that lists all the mid-range defenceman signings from last summer:

Jay McKee - $4M
Spacek - $3.3M
Pothier - $2.5M
Mitchell - $3.5M
Kubina - $5M
Kuba - $3M
Corvo - $2.6M
A. Ward - $2.75
Poti - $2.75
C. White - $3M
Van Ryn - $2.9M
D. Markov $2.5M
P. Boucher - $2.5M
Havelid - $2.7M

There's some good deals and bad deals in there, but, for the most part, it indicates that the market value of defenceman when they hit UFA inflates their value. It's important to note that many of these are deals where the player stayed with their existing team, and may reflect a hometown discount.

Even the good ones become good as the players improved upon receiving the contract. A year ago, I would have said that a team would be crazy to give Van Ryn just under $3M, but, he's played up to that level.

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02-05-2007, 04:16 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
I have no problem moving Redden in order to keep the core together. I am all for that. As this season stands though I have no problem paying Redden because we can afford it.
That's my thoughts. He's proven himself to be valuable, with our other defenceman being more comfortable in their roles when he's in the line-up. We may be forced to make difficult choices in the summer, but for now, he's an important player to have, and we're fortunate to have him.

The playoffs becomes our opportunity to judge who is expendable and who isn't, and make those decisions this summer if we need to.

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02-05-2007, 04:17 PM
  #73
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It's important to note that many of these are deals where the player stayed with their existing team, and may reflect a hometown discount.
Not all of those look like July 1st and after either. Which is important because of the what? ... 3-4 year flood of UFA crops after the lockout. They may have signed with the summer of '05 numbers in mind.

No way Kubina gets $5M last summer!

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02-05-2007, 05:02 PM
  #74
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Not all of those look like July 1st and after either. Which is important because of the what? ... 3-4 year flood of UFA crops after the lockout. They may have signed with the summer of '05 numbers in mind.

No way Kubina gets $5M last summer!
I'm not sure when exactly they were signed in relation to the July 1st date, but, I'm pretty sure all were signed after teams had a general idea of where the cap was going to be, which is the biggest factor of how much teams would be offering. But, I do agree, that if Ottawa ever plans on replacing someone like Redden on the free agent market, you have to go to the upper end of the pay scale, because that's what's left on July 1st for the most part.

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02-05-2007, 08:39 PM
  #75
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I'm not sure when exactly they were signed in relation to the July 1st date, but, I'm pretty sure all were signed after teams had a general idea of where the cap was going to be, which is the biggest factor of how much teams would be offering. But, I do agree, that if Ottawa ever plans on replacing someone like Redden on the free agent market, you have to go to the upper end of the pay scale, because that's what's left on July 1st for the most part.
They aren't economists. They tend to use others players as measuring sticks and what other players got in the summer of '05 seems like chump change because there were so many UFA's. If players like Havelid & Boucher signed earlier, with those contracts in mind... before anybody could have conceiveably imagined Kubina getting $5M...
Well, just picture Havelid & Boucher realizing that Kubina had just gotten double what they signed for.

White and Van Ryn were RFA's.

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