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Old
01-31-2007, 01:41 PM
  #51
PlayItAgain
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Originally Posted by discostu View Post
Jorge Garcia's point though is backed up by the people that have interacted with Chara after a Boston game, where he's visibly much more drained after a game than he ever did in Ottawa.

It may sound like an excuse to you, but, he's playing a much bigger role on the team in Boston than he ever did in Ottawa. If people were expecting that transition to be extremely smooth, they'll probably be disappointed.
I just can't trust in the idea that observing how "drained" a player is post game is a good way to judge how hard his minutes are. Maybe he appears more drained because constantly losing is hard on him. Maybe he looks drained because the stress of it all is getting to him.

If you want to make the point that the added expectations are mentally affecting him, I could buy into that. Chara is in peak physical condition and an avid cyclist who bikes for hours on end. I just don't think the physical aspect of his role in Boston is all that much more demanding that it was in Ottawa.

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01-31-2007, 01:56 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by PlayItAgain View Post
I just can't trust in the idea that observing how "drained" a player is post game is a good way to judge how hard his minutes are. Maybe he appears more drained because constantly losing is hard on him. Maybe he looks drained because the stress of it all is getting to him.

If you want to make the point that the added expectations are mentally affecting him, I could buy into that. Chara is in peak physical condition and an avid cyclist who bikes for hours on end. I just don't think the physical aspect of his role in Boston is all that much more demanding that it was in Ottawa.
Then you may as well just state that you don't plan on ever changing your opinion.

If people that are close to the situation, who have talked to him about, say that he's more drained, I'm not sure what else you need. You're reaching for explanations quite frankly.

Logic generally dictates that for a defenceman, the better the team is around you, and the better linemates you have, the easier shifts you'll have.

Opinions are opinions, but, when there's evidence available that you ignore, it leads one to believe that you've got some beef with the player that's clouding your judgement.

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01-31-2007, 04:14 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by discostu View Post
Then you may as well just state that you don't plan on ever changing your opinion.

If people that are close to the situation, who have talked to him about, say that he's more drained, I'm not sure what else you need. You're reaching for explanations quite frankly.
Hold on a sec here. Where's the so called evidence? Pierre's comments? Is he a physician? I find it strange that he would be in the know of how Chara feels after each Boston game. I don't see how I'm reaching for anything. You are the one trying to convince me that a professional athlete who trains as hard as Chara does suddenly is drained of energy half way through the season simply because he changed teams.

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Logic generally dictates that for a defenceman, the better the team is around you, and the better linemates you have, the easier shifts you'll have.
It is strange that you use the term "logic" here. To me, logic generally dicatates that a player's effort level should not change wether they are surrounded by good players or bad players. Either a player is trying the best they can or they are not. So unless you are suggesting Chara did not skate as hard or battle as hard when he was in Ottawa, I don't see the argument you are trying to make here.

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Opinions are opinions, but, when there's evidence available that you ignore, it leads one to believe that you've got some beef with the player that's clouding your judgement.
Again, I have no beef with Chara thats clouding my judgement. There's no evidence here. You've stated one man's opinion and presented it as fact.

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01-31-2007, 04:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by PlayItAgain View Post
It is strange that you use the term "logic" here. To me, logic generally dicatates that a player's effort level should not change wether they are surrounded by good players or bad players. Either a player is trying the best they can or they are not. So unless you are suggesting Chara did not skate as hard or battle as hard when he was in Ottawa, I don't see the argument you are trying to make here.
I completely disagree. In the offensive zone, a defenseman stands at the point, and sometimes pinches. A pinch requires effort, standing doesn't.

In the defensive zone, you need to be constantly moving or fighting for position with someone. The result is that it takes way more effort to play D than O for a defenseman. It is why PKers need to change every 30-40 seconds yet a PP unit can stay on for 90 seconds without wearing down.

Now, Chara is also being paired with the worst Boston defenders to cover for them (he isn't getting paired with Stuart or Mara I believe). The result is that instead of covering half the ice, he has to cover the other guys side as well. So instead of taking 50% of the defensive zone effort, he is taking on 60%.

Once you combine his extra defensive zone time and the extra defensive zone effort and the extra minute he is playing, it all adds up.

Finally, my eyes tell me this as well. Chara certainly looks drained when I see him play. I don't see his occasional dump and chase (which often really changed a game around, for example game 6 vs Toronto), which to me means that he is tired AND doesn't trust his teammates/D partner to cover for him.

FInally, a breakdown of Chara's Time on Ice stats:

2005-2006 (Ottawa)
4:23 PP
5:47 SH
16:58 ES
27:11 Total

2006-2007 (Boston)
5:02 PP
4:54 SH
18:40 ES
28:38 Total

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01-31-2007, 05:02 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Egil View Post
I completely disagree. In the offensive zone, a defenseman stands at the point, and sometimes pinches. A pinch requires effort, standing doesn't.

In the defensive zone, you need to be constantly moving or fighting for position with someone. The result is that it takes way more effort to play D than O for a defenseman. It is why PKers need to change every 30-40 seconds yet a PP unit can stay on for 90 seconds without wearing down.

Now, Chara is also being paired with the worst Boston defenders to cover for them (he isn't getting paired with Stuart or Mara I believe). The result is that instead of covering half the ice, he has to cover the other guys side as well. So instead of taking 50% of the defensive zone effort, he is taking on 60%.

Once you combine his extra defensive zone time and the extra defensive zone effort and the extra minute he is playing, it all adds up.

Finally, my eyes tell me this as well. Chara certainly looks drained when I see him play. I don't see his occasional dump and chase (which often really changed a game around, for example game 6 vs Toronto), which to me means that he is tired AND doesn't trust his teammates/D partner to cover for him.

FInally, a breakdown of Chara's Time on Ice stats:

2005-2006 (Ottawa)
4:23 PP
5:47 SH
16:58 ES
27:11 Total

2006-2007 (Boston)
5:02 PP
4:54 SH
18:40 ES
28:38 Total
Based on the argument you presented, Chara plays less PK time (hard minutes) in Boston and more PP time (easier minutes) than he did in Ottawa.

Based on the few shift charts I took a look at, Chara was paired mostly with Stuart or Mara most of the time.

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01-31-2007, 05:17 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by PlayItAgain View Post
Based on the few shift charts I took a look at, Chara was paired mostly with Stuart or Mara most of the time.
Must be a small few. A quick spot check on some various shift charts, and he's pretty much getting the lower end of what Boston has to offer during even strength, especially at the beginning of the year.

And yes, a journalist, who frequently sees the player after the game, both when he was in Boston and in Ottawa, and has spoken with him on the subject. It seems like it's a pretty good indication, unless you happen to have some more reliable information.

There just seems to be more reasons to trust that information than to distrust it. Usually when that's the case, and someone chooses the latter, it's because it doesn't fit their existing biases.

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01-31-2007, 06:24 PM
  #57
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The Chara/Redden argument can't be settled until Ottawa plays it's last playoff game this year. Whether that game is Game 4 or game 20-something remains to be seen.

In my opinion Redden will always look better in the watered down regular season games. Chara is more valuable in the high octane, line matching playoff games.

It's unfair to judge so far, since we've seen 40 some meaningless games that don't win trophies. I feel Chara at 1 million more on a long term deal, is a far greater bargain than Redden.

We'll see.

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01-31-2007, 06:41 PM
  #58
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Chara could be the worst player in the league for all I care. He's not on my team anymore, why should I wish him any luck? And I'm not one of the guys that would boo Chara at the game. My point is that since Chara is not on our team anymore, I really couldn't care less about his performance.

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01-31-2007, 06:50 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Human Megaphone View Post
I think we have come full circle to our post playoff loss thoughts on this board. I don't think anyone contests that Chara is a good/great player. I personally would liked to have seen him signed over Redden, but that's moot. Chara does some things really well, but there is a reason why there is a top three NHL dmen and then guys like Chara, Redden etc. The problem is, is that we have paid them like they are in the top 3 and that creates unrealistic expectations.
im glad redden signed over chara, last year the sens showed faith in redden when alfie got injured and redden was promoted to captain over chara. i think we are doing better this year than we would be if we still had chara and redden was gone.

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01-31-2007, 07:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by discostu View Post
Must be a small few. A quick spot check on some various shift charts, and he's pretty much getting the lower end of what Boston has to offer during even strength, especially at the beginning of the year.

And yes, a journalist, who frequently sees the player after the game, both when he was in Boston and in Ottawa, and has spoken with him on the subject. It seems like it's a pretty good indication, unless you happen to have some more reliable information.

There just seems to be more reasons to trust that information than to distrust it. Usually when that's the case, and someone chooses the latter, it's because it doesn't fit their existing biases.
Chara seems to be all over the place then in terms of who he has played with. I only checked the last 4 Boston games figuring that would be indicative of the year. He was mostly paired with Mara in that time.

I stopped trusting Pierre's insight the day he said Buffalo was in a whole other league in terms of speed compared to Ottawa.

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01-31-2007, 07:20 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico__Persson View Post
It's unfair to judge so far, since we've seen 40 some meaningless games that don't win trophies. I feel Chara at 1 million more on a long term deal, is a far greater bargain than Redden.

We'll see.
Despite Chara's injury (which we've never known much about), Redden took control in the Tampa Series and played outstanding. He was one of our best in Buffalo too, with Chara quite easily being the worst or close to it.

I would rather have Redden-Phillips a #1, 2 than Chara, Phillips. Redden's outlet pass is too important.

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01-31-2007, 07:54 PM
  #62
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I always thought Redden, Chara, and Phillips were all assistant captains last year. Im confused .

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01-31-2007, 08:08 PM
  #63
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I think they made a mistake by making him captain so soon. I think that some players who've been captains before could step into that role right away for a new team, but Chara doesn't have that type of experience.

I mean, I know he's making 7.5 million, but he's had to get used to a new city and defensive partner(s), learn a new system, play 30 minutes a night and be the captain of the team and the guy the media comes to for answers. That's a lot to ask for without expecting some sort of transition phase, especially from a guy who's never been in that type of role before.

I'm sure as time goes on he'll get more comfortable and return to top form, but I'm happy with Redden.

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01-31-2007, 08:22 PM
  #64
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Chara is a phenom

There is no way he's drained of any energy. He logs close to 30 min a game

He's a machine, and he treats his body like a temple.

He will spend the rest of his hockey career trying to prove otherwise.

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01-31-2007, 08:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by PlayItAgain View Post
Chara seems to be all over the place then in terms of who he has played with. I only checked the last 4 Boston games figuring that would be indicative of the year. He was mostly paired with Mara in that time.

I stopped trusting Pierre's insight the day he said Buffalo was in a whole other league in terms of speed compared to Ottawa.
I think Buffalo is a faster team than us. We make up for it by being quite a bit more physical. Pierre will always exaggerate differences to make a point, but remove the hyperbole and its all good.

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01-31-2007, 09:50 PM
  #66
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Chara is a phenom

There is no way he's drained of any energy. He logs close to 30 min a game

He's a machine, and he treats his body like a temple.

He will spend the rest of his hockey career trying to prove otherwise.
Is that you Zdeno?

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02-01-2007, 06:33 AM
  #67
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Despite Chara's injury (which we've never known much about), Redden took control in the Tampa Series and played outstanding. He was one of our best in Buffalo too, with Chara quite easily being the worst or close to it.

I would rather have Redden-Phillips a #1, 2 than Chara, Phillips. Redden's outlet pass is too important.
He was one of the best in Buffalo. Pleeeeeaaaasssseee........

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02-01-2007, 08:15 AM
  #68
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Is that you Zdeno?
No, his agent.

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02-01-2007, 11:56 AM
  #69
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No, his agent.

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