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Old
02-04-2007, 05:32 PM
  #1
Rem
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OT - Questions about Montreal's Past and Present from an American

Hello brothers from the north. I hail from San Jose, CA (Thats California, not Canada [and that was just a joke]) and after watching the Habs/Pens game this afternoon on Center Ice I decided to do some research on Montreal to find out more about the city.

Your city has a very interesting past. I just had a couple of completely off-hockey-topic questions if you don't mind me asking.

I had no idea that American Revolutionist occupied the city in the late 1700's. According to Wikipedia, they left peacefully. Now, in your history books, whats the overall opinion of them being there? I know that in US history books things are always sugar coded to flash the pride of our "GLORIOUS" nation, so I was just curious what the Montreal perspective, if any, was of this.

Additionally, I know very little of the law (I think its a law) that signs and what not must be written in both French and English. Does that get annoying at all? I mean just watching the game and having to hear them announce penalties in both French and English seems redundant considering most of you all probably speak, or at least understand, both languages.

And lastly, whats the modern view from the younger generations of the language dispute (if you could even call it one).

Ok one more - everyone (at least americans do) knows that if you go to France, you don't even bother trying to speak the language (as a non-native speaker) unless you want to be insulted. At least thats the stereotype. What about in Montreal?

I hope these aren't the same old boring questions you guys might get asked, but I'm honestly very facisnated by this. Here in San Jose, where half the polulation is Mexican, Spanish is very VERY common, although its not mandatory. Vietnamese is also very popular these days.

Anyway, thanks for reading through. Sinse I started playing Hockey a year ago I've been very interested in Canada and Canada's history, and its pretty amazing how roots of our countries are alike. I also just recently figured out that my great-grandmother was from Nova Scotia, so I guess I'm 1/8 Canadian! I can't wait to take my tour of Canada with my girlfriend and our two dogs. Montreal is definetely on our list of places to stop and wonder.

Thanks in advance!

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02-04-2007, 05:36 PM
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I'll trade you my answers for Jonathan Cheechoo!

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Old
02-04-2007, 05:37 PM
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I'll trade you my answers for Jonathan Cheechoo!
Really? With the way he's be playing lately you may feel ripped off!

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02-04-2007, 05:42 PM
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Really? With the way he's be playing lately you may feel ripped off!

Ok ok, throw in Bernier too then!

Honestly though, I wasn't born here so it's not really my place to comment. The signs are in both French and English with the French text being bigger, sometimes double size.

We really don't have much of a language issue or barrier anymore... most people here seem to get along. Of course, theres still the hardline Quebecois that refuse to learn English and English who refuse to learn French but it's getting less and less with each generation. It seems that the younger kids are growing up with both languages.


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02-04-2007, 05:47 PM
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And as for France. I went to Calais in 2001 and found the people to be rude to me when I spoke French and fine when I spoke English. I actually had a comment made about my being a Quebecois which made me laugh... I said bonjour in the afternoon and that didn't go over well. I guess they don't like the French we speak in Quebec.

I'd like to think we're better here... I think people appreciate your trying to talk to them in their native tounge.


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02-04-2007, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
Ok ok, throw in Bernier too then!

Honestly though, I wasn't born here so it's not really my place to comment. The signs are in both French and English with the French text being bigger, sometimes double size.

We really don't have much of a language issue or barrier anymore... most people here seem to get along. Of course, theres still the hardline Quebecois that refuse to learn English and English who refuse to learn French but it's getting less and less with each generation. It seems that the younger kids are growing up with both languages.
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Originally Posted by Habs13 View Post
And as for France. I went to Calais in 2001 and found the people to be rude to me when I spoke French and fine when I spoke English. I actually had a comment made about my being a Quebecois which made me laugh... I said bonjour in the afternoon and that didn't go over well. I guess they don't like the French we speak in Quebec.

I'd like to think we're better here... I think people appreciate your trying to talk to them in their native tounge.
Thanks for the reply. I don't know French for crap, is there different versions of "Hello" for different times of the day? I mean obviously in english you can say good-morning and the rest, but that doesn't really matter. Japanese has the different "Hello" for times of the day as well (Ohayo (morning), Konichiwa (any time), Konbonwa (good evening).

Oh and much as I love Big Bear Bernier, he's struggled this season as well and is out with a broken toe - although he has good potential.

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02-04-2007, 06:29 PM
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Hello brothers from the north. I hail from San Jose, CA (Thats California, not Canada [and that was just a joke]) and after watching the Habs/Pens game this afternoon on Center Ice I decided to do some research on Montreal to find out more about the city.

Your city has a very interesting past. I just had a couple of completely off-hockey-topic questions if you don't mind me asking.

I had no idea that American Revolutionist occupied the city in the late 1700's. According to Wikipedia, they left peacefully. Now, in your history books, whats the overall opinion of them being there? I know that in US history books things are always sugar coded to flash the pride of our "GLORIOUS" nation, so I was just curious what the Montreal perspective, if any, was of this.
It's mentionned, but it's not considered a big deal. The city was still a small village at the moment, so it didn't have a lot of long term consequences. There's been so many battles and conflicts during the colonial era that it doesn't stand out as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid_i_movemenT View Post
Additionally, I know very little of the law (I think its a law) that signs and what not must be written in both French and English. Does that get annoying at all? I mean just watching the game and having to hear them announce penalties in both French and English seems redundant considering most of you all probably speak, or at least understand, both languages.
You don't have to have english on signs. French has to be there, in bigger characters than any other language up there. Add as much as you want. It's a matter of protection of the visual landscape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid_i_movemenT View Post
And lastly, whats the modern view from the younger generations of the language dispute (if you could even call it one).
I'm twenty-six, and the dispute is not as bad as it once was. Being able to speak the language of the majority wherever you life is just common sense. It seems that we're getting there for almost everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid_i_movemenT View Post
Ok one more - everyone (at least americans do) knows that if you go to France, you don't even bother trying to speak the language (as a non-native speaker) unless you want to be insulted. At least thats the stereotype. What about in Montreal?
Exact opposite. Make a slight effort like saying "bonjour", or "merci" as a tourist is enough. People appreciate the effort a lot and you can get service in english anyway.


Hope this helps.

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02-04-2007, 07:26 PM
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i didn't find peolpe in France rude at all. But maybe it is because I speak French well.

I didn't know that US revolutionists captured mtl.
Then again, not a lot of people know that Canada burnt the White House down to the ground either back in those days.

Crazy !

As for the language debate, the zealots on both sides are dying out.
Most kids born since the 80's can speak both and don't really care for the racist arguments.

When I was growing up there was such a rivalry : constant fist fights in the school yard. Pick-up games were almost always french vs english.

It was pretty stupid.

A lot of the retarded english-rights zealots have moved away. The economic recessions caused by the Seperation referendums caused many of them to leave for Toronto & elesewhere.

This pacified a lot of the hardline francophones.
Life is a lot quieter now - no more bombs & kidnappings.

The biggest sign that most of the French populace is no longer moved by jingoistic sentiments was after the last referendum failed. In his losing speech the seperatist leader Jacques Parizeau blamed the loss on the "Ethnic Vote" and on women who work instead of taking care of the kids.

This was a real deathblow to the movement as it exposed its dark racist underbelly. Combined with the economic recessions, most people just wanted JOBS & NOT MORE POLITICAL CHAOS.

IN terms of what it is like here, Montreal is a very special place. It is very similar to cities like Amsterdam - its a very tolerant & decadent place. The influence of French culture is very strong. The city is very beautiful in terms of architecture, gardens and of course the WOMEN.

Morally, the people have a good mix of both cultures :
healthy sexual appetite & appreciation of beauty from the french
Excessive politeness & consideration from the english.

Great restaurants. You can live well pretty cheaply.
Great music scene.
A lot of jobs in Multimedia / High Tech / Cinema that may appeal to people from San Jose.

And of course Montreal is home the best hockey club the world has ever seen !

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02-04-2007, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rapid_i_movemenT View Post
Hello brothers from the north. I hail from San Jose, CA (Thats California, not Canada [and that was just a joke]) and after watching the Habs/Pens game this afternoon on Center Ice I decided to do some research on Montreal to find out more about the city.

Your city has a very interesting past. I just had a couple of completely off-hockey-topic questions if you don't mind me asking.

I had no idea that American Revolutionist occupied the city in the late 1700's. According to Wikipedia, they left peacefully. Now, in your history books, whats the overall opinion of them being there? I know that in US history books things are always sugar coded to flash the pride of our "GLORIOUS" nation, so I was just curious what the Montreal perspective, if any, was of this.

Additionally, I know very little of the law (I think its a law) that signs and what not must be written in both French and English. Does that get annoying at all? I mean just watching the game and having to hear them announce penalties in both French and English seems redundant considering most of you all probably speak, or at least understand, both languages.

And lastly, whats the modern view from the younger generations of the language dispute (if you could even call it one).

Ok one more - everyone (at least americans do) knows that if you go to France, you don't even bother trying to speak the language (as a non-native speaker) unless you want to be insulted. At least thats the stereotype. What about in Montreal?

I hope these aren't the same old boring questions you guys might get asked, but I'm honestly very facisnated by this. Here in San Jose, where half the polulation is Mexican, Spanish is very VERY common, although its not mandatory. Vietnamese is also very popular these days.

Anyway, thanks for reading through. Sinse I started playing Hockey a year ago I've been very interested in Canada and Canada's history, and its pretty amazing how roots of our countries are alike. I also just recently figured out that my great-grandmother was from Nova Scotia, so I guess I'm 1/8 Canadian! I can't wait to take my tour of Canada with my girlfriend and our two dogs. Montreal is definetely on our list of places to stop and wonder.

Thanks in advance!
The population at that time was neutral about the occupation. The perception was that it was a conflict between english and that montrealers had nothing to do with it. There was a negligible minority (french-canadians with republican ideas or english merchants) who was sympathic to american revolutionist but overall, the population had nothing to win in taking side with americans (on the opposite, british authorities gave a lot of concessions to french-canadian peoples to be sure they stay loyal). Overall, it had about no impact to Montreal history.

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02-04-2007, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
i didn't find peolpe in France rude at all. But maybe it is because I speak French well.

I didn't know that US revolutionists captured mtl.
Then again, not a lot of people know that Canada burnt the White House down to the ground either back in those days.

Crazy !

As for the language debate, the zealots on both sides are dying out.
Most kids born since the 80's can speak both and don't really care for the racist arguments.

When I was growing up there was such a rivalry : constant fist fights in the school yard. Pick-up games were almost always french vs english.
It is interesting that it was the Qubecois who turned back the yanks in 1812
It was pretty stupid.

A lot of the retarded english-rights zealots have moved away. The economic recessions caused by the Seperation referendums caused many of them to leave for Toronto & elesewhere.

This pacified a lot of the hardline francophones.
Life is a lot quieter now - no more bombs & kidnappings.

The biggest sign that most of the French populace is no longer moved by jingoistic sentiments was after the last referendum failed. In his losing speech the seperatist leader Jacques Parizeau blamed the loss on the "Ethnic Vote" and on women who work instead of taking care of the kids.

This was a real deathblow to the movement as it exposed its dark racist underbelly. Combined with the economic recessions, most people just wanted JOBS & NOT MORE POLITICAL CHAOS.

IN terms of what it is like here, Montreal is a very special place. It is very similar to cities like Amsterdam - its a very tolerant & decadent place. The influence of French culture is very strong. The city is very beautiful in terms of architecture, gardens and of course the WOMEN.

Morally, the people have a good mix of both cultures :
healthy sexual appetite & appreciation of beauty from the french
Excessive politeness & consideration from the english.

Great restaurants. You can live well pretty cheaply.
Great music scene.
A lot of jobs in Multimedia / High Tech / Cinema that may appeal to people from San Jose.

And of course Montreal is home the best hockey club the world has ever seen !

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02-04-2007, 08:13 PM
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And as for France. I went to Calais in 2001 and found the people to be rude to me when I spoke French and fine when I spoke English. I actually had a comment made about my being a Quebecois which made me laugh... I said bonjour in the afternoon and that didn't go over well. I guess they don't like the French we speak in Quebec.

I'd like to think we're better here... I think people appreciate your trying to talk to them in their native tounge.
When I went to Eastern Europe I hung out with some French Canadians and we were in a line, and they were speaking French, and there were people from France behind us, and they looked shocked listening to them speak, it was like they were hearing an alien French language or something, then they explained to me the whole thing how the languages sound different or what not.

Which makes me wonder if the French I learned 2nd-8th grade (Being in MI) was based off France French or Quebecois French, I forget most of it now anyway, so im not really sure.

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02-04-2007, 08:27 PM
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When I went to Eastern Europe I hung out with some French Canadians and we were in a line, and they were speaking French, and there were people from France behind us, and they looked shocked listening to them speak, it was like they were hearing an alien French language or something, then they explained to me the whole thing how the languages sound different or what not.

Which makes me wonder if the French I learned 2nd-8th grade (Being in MI) was based off France French or Quebecois French, I forget most of it now anyway, so im not really sure.
quebec french is 'early' 16-17th century french - of the original settlers, many of whom were peasants. so quebec french is a early, working class, now, anglicized version of it. it has its charm though.

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02-04-2007, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
i didn't find peolpe in France rude at all. But maybe it is because I speak French well.

I didn't know that US revolutionists captured mtl.
Then again, not a lot of people know that Canada burnt the White House down to the ground either back in those days.

Crazy !

As for the language debate, the zealots on both sides are dying out.
Most kids born since the 80's can speak both and don't really care for the racist arguments.

When I was growing up there was such a rivalry : constant fist fights in the school yard. Pick-up games were almost always french vs english.

It was pretty stupid.

A lot of the retarded english-rights zealots have moved away. The economic recessions caused by the Seperation referendums caused many of them to leave for Toronto & elesewhere.

This pacified a lot of the hardline francophones.
Life is a lot quieter now - no more bombs & kidnappings.

The biggest sign that most of the French populace is no longer moved by jingoistic sentiments was after the last referendum failed. In his losing speech the seperatist leader Jacques Parizeau blamed the loss on the "Ethnic Vote" and on women who work instead of taking care of the kids.

This was a real deathblow to the movement as it exposed its dark racist underbelly. Combined with the economic recessions, most people just wanted JOBS & NOT MORE POLITICAL CHAOS.

IN terms of what it is like here, Montreal is a very special place. It is very similar to cities like Amsterdam - its a very tolerant & decadent place. The influence of French culture is very strong. The city is very beautiful in terms of architecture, gardens and of course the WOMEN.

Morally, the people have a good mix of both cultures :
healthy sexual appetite & appreciation of beauty from the french
Excessive politeness & consideration from the english.

Great restaurants. You can live well pretty cheaply.
Great music scene.
A lot of jobs in Multimedia / High Tech / Cinema that may appeal to people from San Jose.

And of course Montreal is home the best hockey club the world has ever seen !
Nice reply... 2 little details though:
1) Parizeau never mentioned anything about women in his speach. He talked about ¨money and ethnic vote¨
2) there were no economic recessions caused by the Seperation referendums

basically, French and English people really get along great here in Montreal IMO. It's a nice city for tourists, too.

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02-04-2007, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by guapo23 View Post
i didn't find peolpe in France rude at all. But maybe it is because I speak French well.

I didn't know that US revolutionists captured mtl.
Then again, not a lot of people know that Canada burnt the White House down to the ground either back in those days.
Actually, it wasn't Canada that did it - it was the British. There's been a lot of controversy over who actually did it, but the fact is it was ye ol' Brits. Look it up

Either way, thanks everyone for the insight. Montreal looks like a beautiful place to visit and I can't wait. I hope the girls there aren't turned down by my "California" accent, more specifically my Bay Area dialect where I say "Hella" in practically every sentence. (btw, we invented that term - South Park stole it from us! )

You guys have some great fans up there too. I think this was my 3rd Montreal home game I've watched all season and its obvious you guys are passionate about hockey. If you're ever in SJ, for a team where the majority of fans have never held a hockey stick, we're pretty passionate as well. We've sold out 24 of 29 home games, which is pretty damn good for a California hockey team - especially when you have practically every other major sport around.

Cheers to hockey!


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02-04-2007, 09:30 PM
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Actually, it wasn't Canada that did it - it was the British. There's been a lot of controversy over who actually did it, but the fact is it was ye ol' Brits. Look it up

Either way, thanks everyone for the insight. Montreal looks like a beautiful place to visit and I can't wait. I hope the girls there aren't turned down by my "California" accent, more specifically my Bay Area dialect where I say "Hella" in practically every sentence. (btw, we invented that term - South Park stole it from us! )

You guys have some great fans up there too. I think this was my 3rd Montreal home game I've watched all season and its obvious you guys are passionate about hockey. If you're ever in SJ, for a team where the majority of fans have never held a hockey stick, we're pretty passionate as well. We've sold out 24 of 29 home games, which is pretty damn good for a California hockey team - especially when you have practically every other major sport around.

Cheers to hockey!
it is suppose to be very very sexy so you should have absolutly no problem.

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02-04-2007, 09:33 PM
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I think we get along nicely. However, french is the dominant language by far.

The only thing that I really hate is when I go to the shopping mall and the employees don't even speak a word of french. That's rare but it's also very frustrating.

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02-04-2007, 10:02 PM
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When I went to Eastern Europe I hung out with some French Canadians and we were in a line, and they were speaking French, and there were people from France behind us, and they looked shocked listening to them speak, it was like they were hearing an alien French language or something, then they explained to me the whole thing how the languages sound different or what not.

Which makes me wonder if the French I learned 2nd-8th grade (Being in MI) was based off France French or Quebecois French, I forget most of it now anyway, so im not really sure.
quebec french is 'early' 16-17th century french - of the original settlers, many of whom were peasants. so quebec french is a early, working class, now, anglicized version of it. it has its charm though.

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02-04-2007, 10:26 PM
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quebec french is 'early' 16-17th century french - of the original settlers, many of whom were peasants. so quebec french is a early, working class, now, anglicized version of it. it has its charm though.
Interestingly enough, French in France uses more words borrowed from English than Quebec French.

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02-04-2007, 10:59 PM
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quebec french is 'early' 16-17th century french - of the original settlers, many of whom were peasants. so quebec french is a early, working class, now, anglicized version of it. it has its charm though.
lol, that's false.

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02-04-2007, 11:11 PM
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it is suppose to be very very sexy so you should have absolutly no problem.
Really??? I never had thought of a Californian accent to be sexy...I wonder what the appeal is.

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02-04-2007, 11:20 PM
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Interestingly enough, French in France uses more words borrowed from English than Quebec French.
True.


I work with some french from France and they use more word borrowed from English then us...

Most people where I live speak barely only english, I live in a small english village in the Laurentides, I'm born in MTL and grow up in MTL/Laval before coming here, if today I speak a little bit english, internet help me a lot and off course I rather like to watch some movies in english then in french.

Since 6 months I'm a game tester, there is some linguistics testers at my job, 2-3 Americans from USA, a lot of German, a lot of Spanish, couple of Swedish/Greek/Italian, and we can all speak each together in english. In fact, speaking in english is more easy then learning french for them, more and more young kid are speaking both english and french, I was not able to speak before my 16-17 years old... Since that time, I made progress but I'm still learning a lot of things.

So Its just fun now to have a province with two major language, sometimes people made "dialect" with it and call it "franglais"... Its kind annoying something, a lot people where I work do that, speak half french and english in the same sentence...


Hope you'll enjoy your travel in Montreal, this is a great city, but honestly, if I was traveling in Quebec, Montreal would not be my major trip...


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02-04-2007, 11:22 PM
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Actually, it wasn't Canada that did it - it was the British. There's been a lot of controversy over who actually did it, but the fact is it was ye ol' Brits. Look it up
I realize that it was officially the British that burned the White House down but that was during the War of 1812 and the Canadian Confederation was in 1867. However, it was British North American soldiers (Canadian) and British soldiers, who arrived mid war after the end of the Napoleonic wars in Europe, that burned the White House down.

As for the two referendums, they did have a negative effect on the economy because it was a period of instability in the province. But since the Liberals have been in power we have seen increased investment and a period of economic prosperity due to current stability.

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02-04-2007, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CH Iggins View Post
So Its just fun now two have a province with two major language, something people made "dialect" with it and call it "franglais"... Its kind annoying something, a lot people where I work do that, speak half french and english in the same sentence...
Hahah, yeah well we have Spang-lish here - and Vie-nglish, and Ebonics, and also you get those guys from Southern Cali who refer to freeways as "The 101" rather than just, "101" ... Freaks

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02-04-2007, 11:30 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Balk View Post
I realize that it was officially the British that burned the White House down but that was during the War of 1812 and the Canadian Confederation was in 1867. However, it was British North American soldiers (Canadian) and British soldiers, who arrived mid war after the end of the Napoleonic wars in Europe, that burned the White House down.
Right! I guess during that time period it was difficult to distinguish who was what sinse the countries were so young.

Here's another question, have you all ever heard Cajun French? How does it compare? (For those of you not familiar with Cajuns, click here. Its pretty much the US's French influenced ethnic group in Louisiana)

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02-04-2007, 11:48 PM
  #25
As the Glorious Weep
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Originally Posted by Rapid_i_movemenT View Post
Right! I guess during that time period it was difficult to distinguish who was what sinse the countries were so young.

Here's another question, have you all ever heard Cajun French? How does it compare? (For those of you not familiar with Cajuns, click here. Its pretty much the US's French influenced ethnic group in Louisiana)
I'm a francophone and I can't understand Cajuns. Nor can I understand, without a lot of effort, the speach of most quebecers from the outer regions.

And the french from Paris, France are pathetic. Don't even compare us to them. Although people from Quebec city try to imitate them, so don't go there either. They have this whole air of arrogance that is quite annoying. You just want to punch them in the face.

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