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kings: alzner or kane?

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Old
02-05-2007, 12:13 PM
  #26
Ziggy Stardust
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I hope they can continue to stink up the joint until 2009 and draft Tavares, but that will probably be unlikely seeing how much better the young guns will get over the next couple of seasons.

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02-05-2007, 09:50 PM
  #27
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If you have a chance at Alzner take him

Then with JJ, and others, you guys will have a nice nice d.

Philly if they keep first is probably looking at Alzner,Cherepanov and Voracek.

If we do trade Foopa, and do get a RW as the prospect, then we would have the following Rw's Mr.X and Giroux and Nodl. Which is a nice young bunch of RW, and then no real need for Cherepanov.

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02-05-2007, 10:07 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Westguy13 View Post
Drafting for need is the biggest mistake you can ever make in the NHL. Draft the best player always. I'd say Alzner though. I expect Kane to go 3-7. Top defensmen don't come around every draft. Not to mention a JJ-Alzner pairing could be fun to watch.
What makes you believe Alzner is a top defenseman?

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02-05-2007, 10:27 PM
  #29
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What makes you believe Alzner is a top defenseman?
He is going on hype.....I saw Alzner at the WJC's....and I have never seen a "top" defenseman look as invisible as he did in that tournament. In fact he was outshined by Luc Bourdon....who I consider a good prospect but not worthy of a top 3 pick.

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02-05-2007, 10:34 PM
  #30
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What makes you believe Alzner is a top defenseman?
If you watch Alzner live you really appreciate what he does well. As has been noted on here previously, he's a lot like wade Redden, not very noticeable because he doesn't make many glaring errors. And don't forget, he's playing on a pretty bad team with very little depth after White, Dupont, (who's inconsistent)
Petterson (who's inconsistent). The only other defenceman of note they have are plante and yeo. So his performance and points this year are a little more impressive than one would think. Should be picked somewhere between 3rd and 7th.

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02-05-2007, 10:35 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
He is going on hype.....I saw Alzner at the WJC's....and I have never seen a "top" defenseman look as invisible as he did in that tournament. In fact he was outshined by Luc Bourdon....who I consider a good prospect but not worthy of a top 3 pick.
At least he was invisible compared to the brutal showing of the supposedly great Gagner. As far as prospects go, Alzner seemed like a stalwart compared to little Sam!!

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02-05-2007, 10:43 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
At least he was invisible compared to the brutal showing of the supposedly great Gagner. As far as prospects go, Alzner seemed like a stalwart compared to little Sam!!
Actually....neither of then really did anything in that tournament. So how does that make Alzner better? If anything it just makes them both overrated.

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02-05-2007, 11:30 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
Actually....neither of then really did anything in that tournament. So how does that make Alzner better? If anything it just makes them both overrated.
I disagree. Every time Gagner was on the ice he looked like an overawed out of his depth boy. He made a lot of errors and took some poor penalties. Alzner looked a lot steadier and "safer" than Gagner. Alzner comes out of the tournament looking a lot better than Gagner. I don't know if that makes them both over rated as you contend, but it sure makes Alzner appear the better prospect at this point.

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02-06-2007, 12:52 AM
  #34
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Yeah, but I think its likely the Kings sign Jack Johnson next season. That gives them one blue-chip defenseman already, so no need to take Alznar. Likely to be Kane, unless Philly snaps him up first...
dont you mean Jack "M***** *****N" Johnson?

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02-06-2007, 01:53 AM
  #35
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Actually....neither of then really did anything in that tournament. So how does that make Alzner better? If anything it just makes them both overrated.

Did Alzner even play much?

In the practice match against Finland (in Helsinki) he played a lot after Franson got injured and he played really well and I was impressed. I saw two Canada games at the WJC and I don't think he played much or at all in either...

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02-06-2007, 02:07 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
He is going on hype.....I saw Alzner at the WJC's....and I have never seen a "top" defenseman look as invisible as he did in that tournament. In fact he was outshined by Luc Bourdon....who I consider a good prospect but not worthy of a top 3 pick.

Who's going on hype? One showing of Kane at the WJC's and you're all over his jock.

It's one tournament! A tournament where team Canada had a ton of defensive depth, and Alzner was not asked to play that role.

Look at Kessel from two years ago. Tore it up, and many projected him as the "American" Sidney Crosby. He has struggled to make adjustments at the NHL level and is not nearly as tiny as Kane is. The razzle dazzle works at the junior level, but you have to learn how to play a complete game to be successful-see O'Sullivan, Patrick as well.

The thing about Alzner is he is good at almost everything. No, he does not play an overly physical game, but neither do Lidstrom or Niedermeyer. Alzner has terrific hockey sense, he's an amazing passer, and he can skate extremely well for a big man.

Let's be honest here Spongy, you like Kane because he is flashy, and you dislike Alzner because he is not. However, when you take all things into account, Alzner is simply the better NHL prospect. Kane may have a higher top end, but the odds of him reaching it are pretty slim IMO

9C vs 8.5B

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02-06-2007, 02:14 AM
  #37
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You guys that are ripping on Alzner & Gagner are pretty funny. Are you even aware that the WJC is basically a 19 y/o tournament - meaning that the teams that win it each year usually rely most heavily upon 19 y/os in the clutch? Are you not aware that both players were asked to take on a relatively minor role in comparison to the roles they normally play for their teams in the CHL? So what if a 17 y/o star player looked a bit out of his element in what amounts to his first 19 y/o international tournament? Bet that both Gagner & Alzner are quite happy with their gold medals...

Both players are/were simply being groomed to take on more responsibility with Team Canada in the coming years. Just because you saw more in Kane than Gagner in the WJC speaks as much to the depth of Team Canada's forwards versus that of the US team as does any other argument. Alzner wasn't exactly playing as a part of the number one defense pairing either; there were very capable and deserving TC vets on the depth chart ahead of him. Sure Kane played well, but he was put into a much better position to do so. Kane got a front line job handed to him while Gagner was forced into TC's first year back seat view due to his age. Gagner's time will come. That is just the way TC runs things. It is somewhat foolish to judge any of these players based strictly upon their play at the WJC alone anyway.

Which brings me to Kane. He certainly benefits from playing with Gagner & Kositsyn every bit as much as do the others from playing with him. But Kane in reality is a tiny player. It is funny how some attempt to slight Gagner by playing upon his nickname & referring to him as little Sam in discussions such as this one when in fact he weighs in a full 20 pounds above Kane's measly 170. He is also taller than Kane if memory serves. The point being that it is really a coin flip on draft day between those two players if you are picking a forward. Gagner also has pro hockey in his lineage. And I'd bet that a final draft day arbiter will be how these players look in the OHL come playoff time, and not based upon who received more ice time simply because he played on a weaker overall team in the WJC.


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Old
02-06-2007, 08:51 AM
  #38
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Alzners downside....

on his development is to be a Dave Ellett, which isn't so bad, a 2nd ranked dman on most teams. His upside is Redden or Lidstrom, so a nice range there. Is that potential worth a top 7 pick? I'd say yes in this years draft, but we'll see!!!!

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02-06-2007, 09:09 AM
  #39
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Judging a Canadian prospect's future based on his showing at the WJC in his draft year is perilous business at best, especially considering that Alzner played rarely.

I played several years on defence, and believe me, it is not easy to sit for half a period before getting a shift. Despite that, Alzner was solid when he got his opportunities.

Where he is really shining is on NA rinks playing NA style hockey, and the scouts that are seeing him play a dozen or more games in the WHL this season are the ones who will be getting a proper read on his NHL potential, not armchairs scouts who see him play about a grand total of a dozen shifts on TV during a tournament on international ice.

It's always amusing to hear people speak matter-of-factly on the future of players based on limited WJC viewing.

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02-06-2007, 09:19 AM
  #40
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Good call turnbuckle

I've see Alzner play about 15 games this season and 20 last season, live, in the dub. He just doesn't make many mistakes, he skates the puck out well, his lead passes are crisp and accurate, his pk and pp contributions are key, he's an all rounder who now is starting to rack some points and show some offensive qualities. He's not a monster hitter like Paneuf but he wins the majority of the one on one battles along the boards and doesn't shy away from hitting. The last WK game in Calgary Reaves took a run at him and they both fell down, Reaves looked pretty surprised that Alzner took him down as well!! He's the sort of solid defenceman that projects to quietly work his way on to any NHL teams top pairing....Watch him all season and you can't fail to be impressed.
I'll see him again in Regina and Brandon this weekend, give you guys an update...

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02-06-2007, 09:25 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sbtatter View Post
I've see Alzner play about 15 games this season and 20 last season, live, in the dub. He just doesn't make many mistakes, he skates the puck out well, his lead passes are crisp and accurate, his pk and pp contributions are key, he's an all rounder who now is starting to rack some points and show some offensive qualities. He's not a monster hitter like Paneuf but he wins the majority of the one on one battles along the boards and doesn't shy away from hitting. The last WK game in Calgary Reaves took a run at him and they both fell down, Reaves looked pretty surprised that Alzner took him down as well!! He's the sort of solid defenceman that projects to quietly work his way on to any NHL teams top pairing....Watch him all season and you can't fail to be impressed.
I'll see him again in Regina and Brandon this weekend, give you guys an update...
Much appreciated. I've seen him about a half dozen times on video, and he grows on you even if he doesn't initially wow you with his skills. He's a thick kid, and when he hits folks I'm sure they feel it. He's got a decent point shot and is a smart passer, so there's some offensive potential there as well even if it's somewhat limited.

I could see him being on the Kings' top pairing with JJ in a couple of years and not look out of place. Reminds me a bit of Chris Phillips.

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02-06-2007, 09:32 AM
  #42
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Much appreciated. I've seen him about a half dozen times on video, and he grows on you even if he doesn't initially wow you with his skills. He's a thick kid, and when he hits folks I'm sure they feel it. He's got a decent point shot and is a smart passer, so there's some offensive potential there as well even if it's somewhat limited.

I could see him being on the Kings' top pairing with JJ in a couple of years and not look out of place. Reminds me a bit of Chris Phillips.
The only reason Alzner is a doubt for a number one overall selection is because he does not throw his body around with reckless abandon. Trust me, if Alzner came with Nick Petrecki's physical mentality, people would be asking Kane? Who is Pat Kane? Everything is pro-quality about Alzner right now, its just he has a calm demeanor on the ice that people may be mistaking for not being competitive. I'm a sucker for big hitters, but an even bigger one for guys who have a great mind for the game. KA is extremely cerebral.

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Old
02-06-2007, 11:20 AM
  #43
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Who's going on hype? One showing of Kane at the WJC's and you're all over his jock.

It's one tournament! A tournament where team Canada had a ton of defensive depth, and Alzner was not asked to play that role.

Look at Kessel from two years ago. Tore it up, and many projected him as the "American" Sidney Crosby. He has struggled to make adjustments at the NHL level and is not nearly as tiny as Kane is. The razzle dazzle works at the junior level, but you have to learn how to play a complete game to be successful-see O'Sullivan, Patrick as well.

The thing about Alzner is he is good at almost everything. No, he does not play an overly physical game, but neither do Lidstrom or Niedermeyer. Alzner has terrific hockey sense, he's an amazing passer, and he can skate extremely well for a big man.

Let's be honest here Spongy, you like Kane because he is flashy, and you dislike Alzner because he is not. However, when you take all things into account, Alzner is simply the better NHL prospect. Kane may have a higher top end, but the odds of him reaching it are pretty slim IMO

9C vs 8.5B
Exactly thanks for beating me to the punch

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02-06-2007, 12:01 PM
  #44
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So Turnbuckle and SBtatter, is Alzner good enough to be picked #2 in this draft? Or is he more of a 4-6 pick kind of guy?

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02-06-2007, 12:11 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by kingpin_19 View Post
Yeah, but I think its likely the Kings sign Jack Johnson next season. That gives them one blue-chip defenseman already, so no need to take Alznar. Likely to be Kane, unless Philly snaps him up first...
The Preds drafted Hamhuis, Suter and Parent all in the first round (and Weber in the 2nd). You can never have too many good defensemen.

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02-06-2007, 04:06 PM
  #46
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So Turnbuckle and SBtatter, is Alzner good enough to be picked #2 in this draft? Or is he more of a 4-6 pick kind of guy?
Trouble is, I don't see enough of players like Cherepanov, Kane, Gagner, Esposito to make a fair comparison. Regarding draft eligible players who i see play quite regularly, well, I'd take him ahead of Hamill, Gillies, Sutter, Sonne, Clark, Aulie, Plante. I thought he showed better that gagner in the WJC. Didn't have the opportunity to showcase himself like Cherepanov and Kane. If I was a betting guy right now I'd say he'd go in your 4th to 6th range....

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02-06-2007, 06:10 PM
  #47
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The Preds drafted Hamhuis, Suter and Parent all in the first round (and Weber in the 2nd). You can never have too many good defensemen.

Darn right! Nothing is more valuable then defensive depth in the new nhl!

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02-06-2007, 11:11 PM
  #48
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dont you mean Jack "M***** *****N" Johnson?
Oh ****, I forgot that part...thanks for reminding me.

Haha, apart from the fact that he may very soon become the most hated man in hockey, I think he'll still be a valued NHL defenceman, possibly the #1 defenceman in Los Angeles in a couple of years. Of course, I know I've said this before, if he doesn't turn into a media hound and focus on the attention of Hollywood, as he's doing now with the scouts at Michigan.

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02-07-2007, 12:03 AM
  #49
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Oh ****, I forgot that part...thanks for reminding me.

Haha, apart from the fact that he may very soon become the most hated man in hockey, I think he'll still be a valued NHL defenceman, possibly the #1 defenceman in Los Angeles in a couple of years. Of course, I know I've said this before, if he doesn't turn into a media hound and focus on the attention of Hollywood, as he's doing now with the scouts at Michigan.
Too funny! You have anything to back that up, or just complete speculation(like most people do when it comes to Johnson's "attitude")


That doesn't even make any sense. Why would Johnson "play for the scouts" He's already been drafted. He's already going to get the rookie max + no matter where he signs. Could you please explain to me how he's "playing for the scouts." If anything, he's toned his game down a whole lot in terms of taking penalties(taking Berenson's advice-read being coachable and doing what's best for his TEAM)

Also, how is he a media hound? How many interviews have you seen with him? 30? 40? 100? Yeah, he's done a whole lot less even though the media ALWAYS wants to talk to him(even though he's not the Captain) after the game.... And if you've seen his interviews, he is very humble, and always praises his teammates.




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"If he were different player and a different kid, I would say he might be wasting his time in college, but his attitude is so good,'' Berenson said. "He competes hard. He works hard every day in practice. He's having a chance to grow up with kids his own age, and I think that's the best thing about this. And his game keeps growing.''
http://www.mlive.com/sports/aanews/i...l=2&thispage=1

Berenson is one of the most respected coaches in all of college hockey, and doesn't give praise out too readily; especially to kids who play for the scouts.

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Haha, apart from the fact that he may very soon become the most hated man in hockey

Ohhhhhhhh, I see now. You hate him so you're just making **** up.


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02-07-2007, 10:18 AM
  #50
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You guys that are ripping on Alzner & Gagner are pretty funny. Are you even aware that the WJC is basically a 19 y/o tournament - meaning that the teams that win it each year usually rely most heavily upon 19 y/os in the clutch? Are you not aware that both players were asked to take on a relatively minor role in comparison to the roles they normally play for their teams in the CHL? So what if a 17 y/o star player looked a bit out of his element in what amounts to his first 19 y/o international tournament? Bet that both Gagner & Alzner are quite happy with their gold medals...

Both players are/were simply being groomed to take on more responsibility with Team Canada in the coming years. Just because you saw more in Kane than Gagner in the WJC speaks as much to the depth of Team Canada's forwards versus that of the US team as does any other argument. Alzner wasn't exactly playing as a part of the number one defense pairing either; there were very capable and deserving TC vets on the depth chart ahead of him. Sure Kane played well, but he was put into a much better position to do so. Kane got a front line job handed to him while Gagner was forced into TC's first year back seat view due to his age. Gagner's time will come. That is just the way TC runs things. It is somewhat foolish to judge any of these players based strictly upon their play at the WJC alone anyway.

Which brings me to Kane. He certainly benefits from playing with Gagner & Kositsyn every bit as much as do the others from playing with him. But Kane in reality is a tiny player. It is funny how some attempt to slight Gagner by playing upon his nickname & referring to him as little Sam in discussions such as this one when in fact he weighs in a full 20 pounds above Kane's measly 170. He is also taller than Kane if memory serves. The point being that it is really a coin flip on draft day between those two players if you are picking a forward. Gagner also has pro hockey in his lineage. And I'd bet that a final draft day arbiter will be how these players look in the OHL come playoff time, and not based upon who received more ice time simply because he played on a weaker overall team in the WJC.
By far the most articulate and well thought out post I've ever read on these boards, and not simply because I agree with it. The only other glaring thing I would mention for the sake of comparison is to check the birthdates of Kane and Gagner. Although both their draft year, you'll notice that "little Sam" is almost a year younger and if born a month later would be a 2008 draft pick.

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