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Sweater retirement getting out of hand (ie. Mike Vernon)

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Old
02-08-2007, 09:43 PM
  #1
Loweball
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Sweater retirement getting out of hand (ie. Mike Vernon)

Sorry if this has been discussed already but i feel it's an important issue to discuss.

Is it just me or are these retiring of numbers getting WAY out of hand. Mike Vernon. Phil Housley. Just a couple off the top of my head. I heard a discussion before the Oil - Canucks game the other night that they were talking of retiring Messier's number in Vancouver too!! That's nuts! Messier's years in Vancouver should be forgotten. Not enshrined forever.

No disrespect to Mike Vernon but is he worthy of this? Teams have their "heroes" and Mike was a better than average, good goaltender. But to retire his number is just an excuse to bring back the past and IMO has gone too far. It is making a mockery of the whole idea. And Phil Housley? C'mon. If you ask me, a player should be in the Hall of Fame or something like that to have their number retired. Or a player like Trevor Linden who is Mr. Canuck and has had a great, long career there maybe I can see it. And like I said, no disrespect to those players, but that is a REALLY big honour and a player should have had major accomplishments to have that honour. Am I wrong in thinking this? I know teams can do what they want and celebrate their past but just because the Oil have had numerous players WORTHY and had many celebrations lately doesn't mean every team has to think whose number they can raise too.


Last edited by Loweball: 02-08-2007 at 09:51 PM.
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02-08-2007, 09:53 PM
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Walsher
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Have you ever looked at Phil Housley's stats? Why wouldn't anyone retire his jersey? Just to recap:

1495 games 338 goals 894 assists 1232 points

0.824 PPG as a defenseman - that is pretty incredible. 8 seasons as a Sabre -558 points in 608 games as a Sabre. What more could you ask for?

For Vernon, 11 seasons as a Flame, backstopped them to their only Cup, sure his statistics aren't great, but he is clearly a Flame great.

The trouble with judging all of the other teams, as an Oilers fan, is that our team has had some of the best ever playing on one team in a short period of time. Not every team can retire Coffey, Messier, Gretzky, Kurri, Fuhr, and possibly Anderson, Lowe, and others... To me Al Hamilton is equally or more curious than any of the retired numbers I have seen as a stay at home defenseman you couldn't get to stay at home.

Everything needs to be put into perspective. Look at the Sabres and Flames histories, without players like Housley and Vernon, their cupboards have been pretty bare. They may not be equal to the Oilers rafters skill level, but their worth to the franchise was huge.

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02-08-2007, 09:59 PM
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Loweball
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Players whose numbers should be retired are guys like Gretz, Messier, Ken Dryden and numerous Canadiens, Mike Bossy, etc..not guys who were "good". They should be "stellar".

Don Taylor, Dave Pratt, that dude with the shades who hosts the Fan 590 show on Sportsnet, all said the same thing and that's where i got this idea to post as I agree with them that sweater retirements have gone too far. A player should not just be "great for his team" but great in general. Hall of Fame worthy. Housley and Vernon are definately borderline.

i am pushing 40 years old and Al Hamilton is before my time and have no idea what he did, what he looks like, or if he is even still alive. So, should he have his number retired? He was not stellar or I would have recalled something about him. No disrespect. There must be some reason, like he was a founder or something..wasn't he the first captain? If that's the case, then no, that's not worthy.


BTW Walsher. Do you still want Dougie back? I love him but not enough to bring him back now. I admire your dedication though, you have had that sig for a few years now!


Last edited by Loweball: 02-08-2007 at 10:08 PM.
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02-08-2007, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
Players whose numbers should be retired are guys like Gretz, Messier, Ken Dryden and numerous Canadiens, Mike Bossy, etc..not guys who were "good". They should be "stellar".

Don Taylor, Dave Pratt, that dude with the shades who hosts the Fan 590 show on Sportsnet, all said the same thing and that's where i got this idea to post as I agree with them that sweater retirements have gone too far. A player should not just be "great for his team" but great in general. Hall of Fame worthy. Housley and Vernon are definately borderline.

i am pushing 40 years old and Al Hamilton is before my time and have no idea what he did, what he looks like, or if he is even still alive. So, should he have his number retired? I would say no. He was not stellar. No disrespect. There must be some reason, like he was a founder or something..wasn't he the first captain? If that's the case, then no, that's not worthy.
You obviously never followed Housley's career. The guy is 34th all time in points and the only defensemen in the history of the NHL to score more points than him are named Bourque, Coffey, and MacInnis.

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02-08-2007, 10:08 PM
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I don't think there is any plans to retire Mess's jersey in Vancouver..

The #11 was already unofficially retired before he came (long and controversial story)... 3 years of mediocrity does not = jersey retirement.

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02-08-2007, 10:08 PM
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It doesn't matter if they're retired. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that these retirement ceremonies last between an hour and an hour and a half. The Messier retirement ceremony lasted an hour and a half. Retirement ceremonies shouldn't last more than half an hour. Neither should lifting the Stanley Cup at these ceremonies.

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02-08-2007, 10:09 PM
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Dolemite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
Sorry if this has been discussed already but i feel it's an important issue to discuss.

Is it just me or are these retiring of numbers getting WAY out of hand. Mike Vernon. Phil Housley. Just a couple off the top of my head. I heard a discussion before the Oil - Canucks game the other night that they were talking of retiring Messier's number in Vancouver too!! That's nuts! Messier's years in Vancouver should be forgotten. Not enshrined forever.

No disrespect to Mike Vernon but is he worthy of this? Teams have their "heroes" and Mike was a better than average, good goaltender. But to retire his number is just an excuse to bring back the past and IMO has gone too far. It is making a mockery of the whole idea. And Phil Housley? C'mon. If you ask me, a player should be in the Hall of Fame or something like that to have their number retired. Or a player like Trevor Linden who is Mr. Canuck and has had a great, long career there maybe I can see it. And like I said, no disrespect to those players, but that is a REALLY big honour and a player should have had major accomplishments to have that honour. Am I wrong in thinking this? I know teams can do what they want and celebrate their past but just because the Oil have had numerous players WORTHY and had many celebrations lately doesn't mean every team has to think whose number they can raise too.

If you notice, there aren't very many jerseys up in the Cow town (Three if memory serves) rafters so when they retire a jersey it's a big deal. Vernon more than deserves to have his number retired in the rafters of Cowtown. I think this generation doesn't understand how big of a player he was for the flames during his time in Calgary. There are one perhaps two more that deserve to have their number raised by the Flames.

Now if discussion about Messier getting his jersey retired in Vancouver ever gained momentum, you would see most if not all of the city be against this....and very animately I might add. He was probably the worst thing to happen to the Canucks in it's entire history and it happened at the worst possible time. If you took a poll of the worst events or the worst signings in Canucks history Messier's signing and his time in Vancouver would be at the top of most if not all of the lists.

In most Canucks fans eyes, the next person to get his number raised will (not might) be Trevor Linden....without any discussion.

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02-08-2007, 10:10 PM
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I just heard there was "talk" of it and John Shorthouse, Don Taylor, and Tom Larscheid all said it was a dumb idea too.

Messier was the worst thing to ever happen to the Canucks.

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02-08-2007, 10:13 PM
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And what have the Buffalo Sabres ever done? A team has to celebrate something first before it can celebrate its players.

OOps..Stan Smyl's # is retired..

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02-08-2007, 10:16 PM
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Dolemite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
And what have the Buffalo Sabres ever done? A team has to celebrate something first before it can celebrate its players.

OOps..Stan Smyl's # is retired..
Smyl and Linden both Captained Canucks teams to the finals.

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02-08-2007, 10:17 PM
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Loweball
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On an unrelated note, I ran into Mike Vernon one day here in Victoria on a hike. The guy is an arrogant jerk off. He was hitting on my girlfriend and making out like "I'm Mike Vernon". 5 foot f... all.

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02-08-2007, 10:17 PM
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Jason Smith has also captained his team to the finals.

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02-08-2007, 10:29 PM
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I am with the thread starter, too many jersey's are retired IMO, it should be the highest level of possible respect a player can get, and it should not depend purely on stats, but it should be for players who made an undeniable and long-lasting impact on the club and the community, but I am picky I guess.

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02-08-2007, 10:32 PM
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cowtown has no history so they have to pretend by retiring randoms...

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02-08-2007, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
I am with the thread starter, too many jersey's are retired IMO, it should be the highest level of possible respect a player can get, and it should not depend purely on stats, but it should be for players who made an undeniable and long-lasting impact on the club and the community, but I am picky I guess.
I agree. Way too many jerseys being retired on a few teams. There won't be any "good" numbers left to choose from.

The ONLY thing I like about the Leafs is how they deal with jersey retirements. They put the number up in the rafters but it's not neccessarily retired. Such as Sittler, Peca is using #27 but it's up in the rafters. You can still acknowledge the guys but it's not neccessary to retire as many jerseys as teams have done.

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02-08-2007, 10:37 PM
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I like(sic) what the leafs(doubesic) dothey do not retire jerseys--they honour them

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02-08-2007, 10:40 PM
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Dolemite
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I stand corrected. Vernon's is only the second in the Flames history to be retired (The other being Lanny McDonald).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
I am with the thread starter, too many jersey's are retired IMO, it should be the highest level of possible respect a player can get, and it should not depend purely on stats, but it should be for players who made an undeniable and long-lasting impact on the club and the community, but I am picky I guess.

That was Vernon in a nutshell for the Cowpies and he did win a Cup with the Cowpies (89?). I think MacInnis will be the next one to have his number raised and it's a toss up about Fleury. After that we probably won't see another retirement until Igilna or Kip-ru-sieve.

I honestly think that all these retirements should have been expected as the lockout forced the hand of retirement for lots of players. In addition with the rule changes focusing the game more on speed and skating skills, another group of players retired.

We're probably going to see a bunch next season but after that, we probably won't see many for awhile (Habs and Leafs excluded).


Last edited by Dolemite: 02-08-2007 at 10:46 PM.
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02-08-2007, 10:52 PM
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I don't disagree with the original poster but I have to ask was the initial post motivated by the Calgary hatred most Oil fans feel?
I mean, would the same have been posted if these guys weren't both ex-Flamers?
Just a thought.

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02-08-2007, 11:22 PM
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I was at the Mike Vernon sweater retirement game. Pure coincidence as I had a buddy visiting and we decided to catch up over a game. Observations:

The Flamers really, really need to work on the quality of their events. It came across as an amateur hour presentation. Very flat and disjointed. Tons of bad, ill-prepared speakers and little to no sizzle. Boring. Flamers alumni and their billionaire owners also need to dig a little deeper. They presented Vernon with two donations of $5,000 each to two health related charities. Nice touch but alittle light, imo.

As to Vernon's worth for this honour, I give him his due. Backstopped two Stanley Cup Championship teams including his hometown. He had a very, very solid career (I don't think quite HHOF, imo) and might have won more Cups on a very good Flamers team ... except for a better tender and team in Northern Alberta.
H
e is a great success story for this franchise. A cinderella local boy makes good for persevered to overcome his lack of size and had a great career. Mike Vernon deserves this day in the sun. Too bad the Flamers couldn't have delivered a more memorable event.

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02-08-2007, 11:37 PM
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Vernon is debatable, but he backstopped the flames to there only SC, and if you don't think Housley should have his number retired, than you don't know enough about him, he is one of the greatest offensive d-man the game has had. Guys like Housley don't come around too often.

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02-08-2007, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smyth2Hemsky View Post
It doesn't matter if they're retired. That doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that these retirement ceremonies last between an hour and an hour and a half. The Messier retirement ceremony lasted an hour and a half. Retirement ceremonies shouldn't last more than half an hour. Neither should lifting the Stanley Cup at these ceremonies.
I agree with the no Stanley Cup lifting. Cheesy at best. Did any of the Oiler ceremonies include the Cup? I can't recall.

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02-08-2007, 11:45 PM
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BAuldie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
On an unrelated note, I ran into Mike Vernon one day here in Victoria on a hike. The guy is an arrogant jerk off. He was hitting on my girlfriend and making out like "I'm Mike Vernon". 5 foot f... all.
I've heard the same thing about him.. he always looked like one of those cocky little beaky guys too.

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02-08-2007, 11:47 PM
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BAuldie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
Jason Smith has also captained his team to the finals.
Dolemite didn't really say it well. Both were the faces of the franchise for a decade.. they did not just captain the team to the stanley cup finals. Smyl was the all-time leader in points and goals until Linden came back. No.. on a lot of teams he would not have had his jersey retired but he was definetly the heart and soul of Vancouver for a very long time and one of the best players in team history who actually stayed with the franchise.

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02-09-2007, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
Players whose numbers should be retired are guys like Gretz, Messier, Ken Dryden and numerous Canadiens, Mike Bossy, etc..not guys who were "good". They should be "stellar".
Geeeeeze. Kettle black much?

You start you post by blasting the Flames for retiring Housely and Vernon but you fail to address the fact that the Oilers retired Al Hamilton. I'm pretty sure his name won't be in the hall of fame any time soon

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02-09-2007, 12:20 AM
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Geeeeeze. Kettle black much?

You start you post by blasting the Flames for retiring Housely and Vernon but you fail to address the fact that the Oilers retired Al Hamilton. I'm pretty sure his name won't be in the hall of fame any time soon
well maybe you should read the entire post because he did question why Hamilton had his number retired.

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