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Sweater retirement getting out of hand (ie. Mike Vernon)

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Old
02-09-2007, 12:22 AM
  #26
hockeyaddict101
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Originally Posted by metallicat View Post
I agree with the no Stanley Cup lifting. Cheesy at best. Did any of the Oiler ceremonies include the Cup? I can't recall.
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02-09-2007, 12:30 AM
  #27
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didn't the 90 one had mess comming out with the cup

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02-09-2007, 12:31 AM
  #28
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Hamilton has his number retired because the Edmonton Oilers were celebrating their link with the WHA.

He was the first player signed as an WHA Oiler (I believe) and it's first Captain.

The next time you go to Rexall place note that the Jersey colours on that penant are different than the other ones.

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02-09-2007, 12:34 AM
  #29
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the one probleam I have with players that have had their number retired was Ray Bourque in Colorado. But if you look at a lot of the players that have had their numbers retired by whatever orginization it is hard to argue them.

Added to that honestly I thought Vernon (and a few others) have had more significant contributions to the Flames than MacDonald

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02-09-2007, 12:38 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
didn't the 90 one had mess comming out with the cup
The Stanley Cup celebrations would obviously have the cup which is obviously warranted but none of the Jersey celebrations have had the cup.

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02-09-2007, 12:42 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
the one probleam I have with players that have had their number retired was Ray Bourque in Colorado. But if you look at a lot of the players that have had their numbers retired by whatever orginization it is hard to argue them.

Added to that honestly I thought Vernon (and a few others) have had more significant contributions to the Flames than MacDonald
Yea Bourque in Colorado was a joke.. it was like they just wanted a piece of him or something. A guy who plays a year and a bit for a team should not be getting his number retired. Oh well.

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02-09-2007, 12:47 AM
  #32
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Yea Bourque in Colorado was a joke.. it was like they just wanted a piece of him or something. A guy who plays a year and a bit for a team should not be getting his number retired. Oh well.
yeah worst yet he did not make any meaningful contributions to that run besides clutching and grabbing. What will be more sad is if they deside to retire Blakes number as well.

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02-09-2007, 01:33 AM
  #33
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I wonder if people are mixed up between retiring a jersey and entering the hall of fame.

You don't need super stats to have a jersey retired. I feel if a player has the history and the influence towards a team, they deserve to have their jersey retired. Hall of Fame is a much different matter. To enter the HOF, you should be an outstanding player that sticks out from the rest.


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Old
02-09-2007, 01:40 AM
  #34
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I just heard there was "talk" of it and John Shorthouse, Don Taylor, and Tom Larscheid all said it was a dumb idea too.

Messier was the worst thing to ever happen to the Canucks.
That wasn't a serious talk and was more of a joke. They were running a poll question on team 1040's website asking if the canucks retired number 11, who should it be retired for? Wayne Mackey, Mark Messier and a couple of others were the choices. Messier obviously came last in the poll with Mackey winning the poll pretty easily. The number was already unofficially retired due to his death and messier came along and took the number without even asking the family about it. So there was never any talk about messier being retired, but just one of their poll questions they ask every day.

For example, today's poll question is, best drunk celebrity caught on tape. Pat O'Brien, Nick Nolte, Joe Namath or Rick Sutcliffe.

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02-09-2007, 01:43 AM
  #35
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I'm flying home for the Messier game. If this keeps up, I'll be destitute by the time they get to Stan Weir.

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02-09-2007, 01:49 AM
  #36
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I stand corrected. Vernon's is only the second in the Flames history to be retired (The other being Lanny McDonald).




That was Vernon in a nutshell for the Cowpies and he did win a Cup with the Cowpies (89?). I think MacInnis will be the next one to have his number raised and it's a toss up about Fleury. After that we probably won't see another retirement until Igilna or Kip-ru-sieve.

I honestly think that all these retirements should have been expected as the lockout forced the hand of retirement for lots of players. In addition with the rule changes focusing the game more on speed and skating skills, another group of players retired.

We're probably going to see a bunch next season but after that, we probably won't see many for awhile (Habs and Leafs excluded).
You can definitely make an argument for Vernon, I am still undecided on whether I would retire his jersey or not really, but I would lean towards being as strict as possible, and I also am in favour of waiting for a longer period of time after the players retirement, I wouldn't want to retire a players jersey until 20 years or so after he has retired, unless it is a undeniable type of decision, like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe type of deals.

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02-09-2007, 01:56 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
You can definitely make an argument for Vernon, I am still undecided on whether I would retire his jersey or not really, but I would lean towards being as strict as possible, and I also am in favour of waiting for a longer period of time after the players retirement, I wouldn't want to retire a players jersey until 20 years or so after he has retired, unless it is a undeniable type of decision, like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe type of deals.
20 Years is too long. The Habs way of doing things is WAY too long to wait for a sweater to be retired. With the amount of Backlogged players they have I'll be 90 before they even start talking about Patrick Roy's sweater being retired.

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Old
02-09-2007, 09:22 AM
  #38
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cowtown has no history so they have to pretend by retiring randoms...
that's original. How about I counter with something as simple minded as what you posted? Edmonton is still living in the past. ALl they have is the past. Arrogant isn't it? The door swings both ways pumpkin

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02-09-2007, 09:37 AM
  #39
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I don't take issue with Vernon being selected for having his number retired in Calgary.

The guy was a huge part of the Flames success and would likely have been remembered for more if it wasn't for the Oilers doing their thing at the same time.

However, as a hockey fan, I find it offensive that the Stanley Cup was not only used during the ceremony but apparently carried out by an ex-player as if to be celebrated.

The cup has always been considered the most sacred of things, to be fought and bled over each year by the players of the day. Once their one year of being champion is up it is up to them, or the players they pass the torch to, to win it again in order to be celebrated. The players who have won it are already remembered for it by having their name engraved on it and to trot it out for such a function seems very inappropriate to me.

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02-09-2007, 09:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I don't take issue with Vernon being selected for having his number retired in Calgary.

The guy was a huge part of the Flames success and would likely have been remembered for more if it wasn't for the Oilers doing their thing at the same time.

However, as a hockey fan, I find it offensive that the Stanley Cup was not only used during the ceremony but apparently carried out by an ex-player as if to be celebrated.

The cup has always been considered the most sacred of things, to be fought and bled over each year by the players of the day. Once their one year of being champion is up it is up to them, or the players they pass the torch to, to win it again in order to be celebrated. The players who have won it are already remembered for it by having their name engraved on it and to trot it out for such a function seems very inappropriate to me.
I agree.

It's one thing to maybe honour a group of players (for instance, when one of the panels gets taken off of the cup, players from that team are honoured and allowed a photo with the cup in front of the hometown before they remove that panel), but to honour a single person like that with the Stanley cup is simply absurd.

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02-09-2007, 10:01 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I don't take issue with Vernon being selected for having his number retired in Calgary.

The guy was a huge part of the Flames success and would likely have been remembered for more if it wasn't for the Oilers doing their thing at the same time.

However, as a hockey fan, I find it offensive that the Stanley Cup was not only used during the ceremony but apparently carried out by an ex-player as if to be celebrated.
The reason they did that is that's the only way fans are going to see someone in a Flames jersey holding the Stanley Cup in the Saddeldome.

What I find irronic is that when Vernon returned to Calgary to play his final season, he wore #29, the number he wore after leaving Calgary. Does anyone know why he didn't go back to #30 when he returned? No one else had it at the time.

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02-09-2007, 10:30 AM
  #42
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that's original. How about I counter with something as simple minded as what you posted? Edmonton is still living in the past. ALl they have is the past. Arrogant isn't it? The door swings both ways pumpkin
we have a past to celebrate...

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02-09-2007, 10:36 AM
  #43
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My question to those who argue that only Hall of Famers should have their numbers retired would be - would you retire Ryan Smyth's number once he finishes his career in Edmonton? He won't be elected to the Hall unless he has some sort of coming out party in his 30's, yet he has been the face of the franchise for years and looks to do so for more to come. He will be one of the marquis names in Oilers history during the 95-2010 and beyond years. To me he will have shown loyalty, good performance, and amazing community service for that time.

IMO a guys number should be retired if he makes an excellent contribution to the team over the years. Teams enjoy honoring their players. Fans enjoy the opportunity to say thank you. For players like Vernon, this is a sign of respect for what he did for the organization, on and off the ice, for years of commitment, for community service, for everything. Just because a guy never makes the Hall doesn't mean he should be ineligible for a team honor like this. Heck, Glen Anderson isn't in the Hall, and likely won't be and his stats are as follows:

1129 games 498 goals 601 assists 1099 points

Considering that 50th All-Time is 1121 points, Glen Anderson ranks pretty high. Do the Oilers not retire his digits?

Finally, just to reiterate, Phil Housley is ahead of Sittler, Bossy, Bobby Hull, Jean Beliveau, Michel Goulet, Dino Cicarelli, among others. He is 34th all-time in NHL scoring. If you mean to tell me that only the 33 players ahead of him should have their numbers retired that is nuts. There is no reason for him not to have his jersey raised and he will be a HOF inductee.

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02-09-2007, 11:20 AM
  #44
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Vernon deserved to have his number retired. Sometimes I question what people write.

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02-09-2007, 11:36 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
My question to those who argue that only Hall of Famers should have their numbers retired would be - would you retire Ryan Smyth's number once he finishes his career in Edmonton? He won't be elected to the Hall unless he has some sort of coming out party in his 30's, yet he has been the face of the franchise for years and looks to do so for more to come. He will be one of the marquis names in Oilers history during the 95-2010 and beyond years. To me he will have shown loyalty, good performance, and amazing community service for that time.

IMO a guys number should be retired if he makes an excellent contribution to the team over the years. Teams enjoy honoring their players. Fans enjoy the opportunity to say thank you. For players like Vernon, this is a sign of respect for what he did for the organization, on and off the ice, for years of commitment, for community service, for everything. Just because a guy never makes the Hall doesn't mean he should be ineligible for a team honor like this. Heck, Glen Anderson isn't in the Hall, and likely won't be and his stats are as follows:

1129 games 498 goals 601 assists 1099 points

Considering that 50th All-Time is 1121 points, Glen Anderson ranks pretty high. Do the Oilers not retire his digits?

Finally, just to reiterate, Phil Housley is ahead of Sittler, Bossy, Bobby Hull, Jean Beliveau, Michel Goulet, Dino Cicarelli, among others. He is 34th all-time in NHL scoring. If you mean to tell me that only the 33 players ahead of him should have their numbers retired that is nuts. There is no reason for him not to have his jersey raised and he will be a HOF inductee.

^I agree. Everything you mentioned is what I said but in much more depth and detail.

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02-09-2007, 11:41 AM
  #46
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The worst part is that in Montreal we have problems retirering the jerseys of players that should have seen their jerseys retired everywhere else:

Bouchard (in the 50's), Lapointe (in the '70s).

Management tries to wait for each player to die before retirering their jersey.

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02-09-2007, 12:39 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by guzzy View Post
that's original. How about I counter with something as simple minded as what you posted? Edmonton is still living in the past. ALl they have is the past. Arrogant isn't it? The door swings both ways pumpkin
well first like someone said already we have a past, second can you tell me how we celebrated losing the cup and compare that with how the Flames did ? thank you "pumpkin"

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Old
02-09-2007, 01:25 PM
  #48
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Players whose numbers should be retired are guys like Gretz, Messier, Ken Dryden and numerous Canadiens, Mike Bossy, etc..not guys who were "good". They should be "stellar".

Don Taylor, Dave Pratt, that dude with the shades who hosts the Fan 590 show on Sportsnet, all said the same thing and that's where i got this idea to post as I agree with them that sweater retirements have gone too far. A player should not just be "great for his team" but great in general. Hall of Fame worthy. Housley and Vernon are definately borderline.
I disagree 100%.

Just because Vernon and Housley are no big deal to you doesn't mean that they weren't a very big deal for a very long time to the fans of the organizations they played so many successful seasons for.

Having your jersey retired isn't as great an honour (overall, but it likely is to the players and their fans) as making the hof, it's just the best way that an organization can pay their respect to guys who did them great service for a great period of time. If Ryan Smyth plays here for his whole career and bleeds for this team 1000 times are you telling me that the Oilers can't retire his jersey just because he doesn't make the hof, or come close to it? I can tell you for certain that Ryan Smyth's numbers won't get him into the hall and the fans of the nyi's and Devils won't give a rip about him 5 years after he retires so he has no hope of getting into the hall. Getting into the hearts of the Oiler fans and proudly representing this team for 15-20 years (if he can stay healthy) will mean enough to you me and most other Oiler fans to get his number retired here.

I'd like to know what Pratt and Taylor think of Stan Smyl's jersey hanging from the rafters in vancouver. He only played 13 nhl seasons, never scored more than 38 goals (averaged about 20 in the highest scoring era ever), played less than 1000 games, less than 300 goals, less than 500 assists (.75 ppg), 673 career points...

Housley played 20 seasons, scored over 1200 points (almost 600 more than Steamer), had over 300 goals, and almost had a 100 point season from the blueline on year in wpg (97 pts). He dawrfs Smyl in a lot of ways.

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Old
02-09-2007, 01:39 PM
  #49
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20 Years is too long. The Habs way of doing things is WAY too long to wait for a sweater to be retired. With the amount of Backlogged players they have I'll be 90 before they even start talking about Patrick Roy's sweater being retired.
I disagree, I would prefer if teams would wait longer, it gives a better feel for how the player continues to be viewed within the community IMO, and with more time it is easier to tell whether or not a player had a lasting impact and really deserves to be honoured in such a way. But thats just me.

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02-09-2007, 01:49 PM
  #50
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I am with the thread starter, too many jersey's are retired IMO, it should be the highest level of possible respect a player can get, and it should not depend purely on stats, but it should be for players who made an undeniable and long-lasting impact on the club and the community, but I am picky I guess.
Yeah so saying that Housley and Vernon are no brainers! I would even suggest Housley's jersey would be retired in Winnipeg had the Jets stayed. He was a huge part of Teemu's 76 goal rookie campaign, and was an offensive great on the Jet blueline.

A jersey retirement is the ultimate honor bestowed on a player for thier contribution to a team and it's community. It has nothing to do with league wide success. You can't tell me that Mike Vernon wasn't a Flame great or doesn't deserve the honor.

Mess in Vancouver however is just silly.

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