HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sweater retirement getting out of hand (ie. Mike Vernon)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-09-2007, 01:55 PM
  #51
Gamefreak
Bee.
 
Gamefreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,502
vCash: 500
For all intents and purposes, Lowe's #4 is already retired. Who knows when it'll become official, though.

Gamefreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2007, 02:06 PM
  #52
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamefreak View Post
For all intents and purposes, Lowe's #4 is already retired. Who knows when it'll become official, though.
yes 9 and 4 will be forsures, as well they should do a "Sather" banner as well. As many other said as well I see 94 being retired one day too.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2007, 02:13 PM
  #53
Roughneck
Registered User
 
Roughneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Calgary
Country: Ireland
Posts: 8,636
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Roughneck
How can anybody take exception with Vernon's jersey getting retired? A hometown boy who led his team to the Cup during their greatest era, who leads the team in every career goaltending category, a player who had less than twenty fewer wins than his biggest rival, Grant Fuhr (and a better GAA ) and who has been a cornerstone in the community even after he was traded. I can think of few players who deserve to have their numbers retired more.

Roughneck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-09-2007, 02:21 PM
  #54
copperandblue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,724
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
How can anybody take exception with Vernon's jersey getting retired? A hometown boy who led his team to the Cup during their greatest era, who leads the team in every career goaltending category, a player who had less than twenty fewer wins than his biggest rival, Grant Fuhr (and a better GAA ) and who has been a cornerstone in the community even after he was traded. I can think of few players who deserve to have their numbers retired more.
Yeah the notion that he doesn't deserve it seems silly.

If anything I think he should also have his sweater retired in Edmonton as well, after all some of us Oilers fan's fondest memories include Vernon. Such as the vision of Gretzky streaking down the wing and blowing a shot over Vernon's glove hand in OT during the playoffs or Esa's single handed dismantling of the great Vernon wall to clinch the series in '90.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. Note I am actually on record of thinking he legitimately deserves the honour.)

copperandblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 10:45 AM
  #55
Marconius
Registered User
 
Marconius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund Oiler View Post
Players whose numbers should be retired are guys like Gretz, Messier, Ken Dryden and numerous Canadiens, Mike Bossy, etc..not guys who were "good". They should be "stellar".

Don Taylor, Dave Pratt, that dude with the shades who hosts the Fan 590 show on Sportsnet, all said the same thing and that's where i got this idea to post as I agree with them that sweater retirements have gone too far. A player should not just be "great for his team" but great in general. Hall of Fame worthy. Housley and Vernon are definately borderline.
But you ARE describing the Hall of Fame. Players who's accomplishments are consistently league-wide in nature throughout their careers get recognized by a spot on the HHF ballot.

Players who's accomplishments are more or less specific to one team (IE: Vernon on the Flames) get recognized by their specific teams with a jersey retirement. That's the whole point. Vernon meant a lot to the Flames and the fans and this is his reward for that.

What do we care what other teams retire what other jerseys. If there is a team that goes overboard and retires the numbers of increasingly mediocre players, then that simply devalues the other jerseys hanging from those rafters. It does nothing to affect the status of other retired jerseys on other teams.

Marconius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 11:38 AM
  #56
Walsher
Registered User
 
Walsher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
How can anybody take exception with Vernon's jersey getting retired? A hometown boy who led his team to the Cup during their greatest era, who leads the team in every career goaltending category, a player who had less than twenty fewer wins than his biggest rival, Grant Fuhr (and a better GAA ) and who has been a cornerstone in the community even after he was traded. I can think of few players who deserve to have their numbers retired more.
Keep in mind the team Fuhr plaid on before you start throwing GAA stats of Vernon in comparison to Fuhr. Vernon deserves to be in the rafters at the Dome, but there is no comparison between he and Fuhr other than that they both played in CGY

Walsher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 01:37 PM
  #57
Roughneck
Registered User
 
Roughneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Calgary
Country: Ireland
Posts: 8,636
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Roughneck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
Keep in mind the team Fuhr plaid on before you start throwing GAA stats of Vernon in comparison to Fuhr. Vernon deserves to be in the rafters at the Dome, but there is no comparison between he and Fuhr other than that they both played in CGY
Why can't you compare them? If Vernon played on the Oilers in the 80s I'd imagine they'd have the same amount of Cups, and if Fuhr played on the Flames I'd imagine that they'd have the same amount as well.

Their stats are extremely comparible. In the same ballpark in wins and winning percentage, Vernon GAA=2.98, Fuhr's 3.38. Sv Pct. .900 to .887, Shutouts, 27 to 25, Playoff winning pct. 55% to 61%, both have 6 playoff shutouts, Vernon has 2 Cups, Fuhr has 5, Vernon has a Conn Smyth, Fuhr doesn't, Vernon won all 16 games in the playoffs twice, Fuhr once.

Now, with these stats you could argue until the end of time about who was better and who you would rather have on your team, but the main point is that saying they are uncomparible is an insult to Vernon.

Roughneck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 01:42 PM
  #58
Walsher
Registered User
 
Walsher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Why can't you compare them? If Vernon played on the Oilers in the 80s I'd imagine they'd have the same amount of Cups, and if Fuhr played on the Flames I'd imagine that they'd have the same amount as well.

Their stats are extremely comparible. In the same ballpark in wins and winning percentage, Vernon GAA=2.98, Fuhr's 3.38. Sv Pct. .900 to .887, Shutouts, 27 to 25, Playoff winning pct. 55% to 61%, both have 6 playoff shutouts, Vernon has 2 Cups, Fuhr has 5, Vernon has a Conn Smyth, Fuhr doesn't, Vernon won all 16 games in the playoffs twice, Fuhr once.

Now, with these stats you could argue until the end of time about who was better and who you would rather have on your team, but the main point is that saying they are uncomparible is an insult to Vernon.
They are not comparible due to the teams in front of the players. There is a reason the Oilers won game 8-7 and 5-4 on almost every night and it wasn't because their was a defense in front of Fuhr. The numbers are comparable and that is a huge compliment to Fuhr having to face way more high-quality opportunities resulting from run-and-gun play by his team. There is no comparison between the two - I don't think. I will agree to disagree with you. No slight to Vernon, but he is no Fuhr.

Walsher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 01:43 PM
  #59
looooob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,886
vCash: 500
maybe its already been mentioned here , but I think Housley was inducted into the SAbres Hall of Fame, but did not have his jersey retired

however the Sabres have retired at least 6 jerseys (Horton, Perreault, Martin, Robert, Gare, Lafontaine) which is alot for a team that has never won a cup in 35 years (and the Sabres were my favorite team as a kid so I say this with due respect)

as for Vernon, I have to admit I was sort of the fence, only in terms of trying to decide how elite an honour it should be for the Flames

having said that I think a few people are a little dismissive of Vernon in this thread, he had a good career in an era that didn't flatter goaltenders as we all know

looooob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 01:44 PM
  #60
guzzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,950
vCash: 500
G W L T SO GAA
781 385 273 92 27 2.98
868 403 295 114 25 3.38
I don't understand why some people can doubt Vernon's talent and deservedness to have his jersey in the rafters. He has 385 wins - 18 fewer than Fuhr. He won 49% of his starts vs. 46% of his starts compared to Fuhr. He won two cups so Fuhr definitely has him there but I could have one a cup in net for Edmonton in the 80's. I don't think they really needed a goalie at all. Vernon has two more career shutouts and a better GAA. All of these being regular season stats. If Fuhr has his retired I think it is only fitting that Vernon has his, with better numbers in almost category except Stanley Cups

guzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 01:47 PM
  #61
looooob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,886
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
They are not comparible due to the teams in front of the players. There is a reason the Oilers won game 8-7 and 5-4 on almost every night and it wasn't because their was a defense in front of Fuhr. The numbers are comparable and that is a huge compliment to Fuhr having to face way more high-quality opportunities resulting from run-and-gun play by his team. There is no comparison between the two - I don't think. I will agree to disagree with you. No slight to Vernon, but he is no Fuhr.
first off I don't even want to pretend that the Flames were a match for the Oilers in the era, so don't misunderstand me

but the Flames were a pretty high scoring team in their own rate when Vernon played (for example in 88 the Flames were-I think-the 6th highest scoring team of all time behind 4 oilers teams (maybe 5) and a version of Orr's bruins), they did tighten up in 89 defensively when they won the cup

anyways the Oilers did apparently have some good defensive players (or so I'm told often) including Kurri, Tikkanen, MacT, Lowe , et al, so to all of a sudden dismiss Vernon b/c Fuhr played on a less defensive team seems a little unfair to Vernon. they were both last line of defence on teams that other priorities

I'm of the opinion that Fuhr was a bit better, but not by an enormous margin

looooob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-10-2007, 01:56 PM
  #62
Vagabond
Registered User
 
Vagabond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,139
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Vagabond
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Why can't you compare them? If Vernon played on the Oilers in the 80s I'd imagine they'd have the same amount of Cups, and if Fuhr played on the Flames I'd imagine that they'd have the same amount as well.

Their stats are extremely comparible. In the same ballpark in wins and winning percentage, Vernon GAA=2.98, Fuhr's 3.38. Sv Pct. .900 to .887, Shutouts, 27 to 25, Playoff winning pct. 55% to 61%, both have 6 playoff shutouts, Vernon has 2 Cups, Fuhr has 5, Vernon has a Conn Smyth, Fuhr doesn't, Vernon won all 16 games in the playoffs twice, Fuhr once.

Now, with these stats you could argue until the end of time about who was better and who you would rather have on your team, but the main point is that saying they are uncomparible is an insult to Vernon.
I'll have to agree with you. As much of an Oiler fan I am, I can see things both ways. They are very comparable. I have watched many Flame games growing up as a child because my father is a flamer fan. Through watching both the Oilers and the Flames, I can very much say they are both decent goalies with very comparable stats and feats. Back in 89 Vernon was a big reason for Calgary going all the way. He made some amazing glove saves. I much prefer Fuhr over Vernon, but.. I'm biased.. All my best hockey memories were from the battle of Alberta back when it was Fuhr vs Vernon. They didn't call Alberta "Death Valley" for nothing. If any team had gone through Alberta back then and managed to even get a tie, that was considered a success.

Edit:
Yes.. I know.. I went off topic a bit.. I let old memories get the best of me.

Vagabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2007, 08:02 AM
  #63
MarkusNaslund19
Registered User
 
MarkusNaslund19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country:
Posts: 1,274
vCash: 500
I think Phil Housley falls into the Larry Murphy catagory. Brilliant offensive numbers for a defenseman, but never truly a top d-man in the league. That said, he would be worthy of having his number retired if he had played on one team for the duration of his career but, like larry murphy, he played for so many teams which one did he make THAT kind of contribution too?

These are two players who IMO could be hall of famers, but not likely get their jerseys retired.

MarkusNaslund19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2007, 08:53 AM
  #64
razorsedge
West Town Sports
 
razorsedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fort Sask, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,694
vCash: 50
Yah, the retirement jersey ceremony is going way overboard. I think the Oilers only retire the jersey of former players that are in the Hall of Fame. Cause, Coffee could be questionable, since his departure from the team was less than classy.

You know whats really p*ss*ing me off? How about the Phoenix Coyote's retiring Dale Hawerchuks jersey? He never played for the franchise as a Coyote. But they're gonna retire it. I bet none of the fans have even heard of Ducky. Very disrespectful to the city of Winnipeg and to the old Jets fans.

I think jersey retirments are what the player did for the team, not in the NHL, but it's getting overboard and I think teams are using it as a marketing angle more than anything.

razorsedge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 08:18 PM
  #65
Tatehamma
Registered User
 
Tatehamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 331
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Tatehamma
Quote:
Messier was the worst thing to ever happen to the Canucks.
Sorry bro, but I disagree. Yes, he was awful on the ice, and yes, he didn't live up to the standards you all witnessed in Edmonton. But off the ice, he taught Nazzy how to be a captain. Having the "greatest leader in all of sports" (questionable) had quite the price tag I might add, but he did fill the building every night.....even when they were god awful.

I think the worst thing ever to happen to the Canucks was the Cam Neely deal, but the Luongo deal is making up for that! (so far)

Tatehamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 08:38 PM
  #66
peesters
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7
vCash: 500
5 years of therapy to convince me that Mess never wore a fish jersey shot to hell with this thread! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEECCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHH!

peesters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 08:46 PM
  #67
JMoss4Life
Registered User
 
JMoss4Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton,Canada
Posts: 316
vCash: 500
ya know if they wanna retire a jersey go for it...but the leafs celebrating a Cup 40 years ago...congrats on that amazing accomplishment,....40 years ago.....

JMoss4Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 09:01 AM
  #68
Vagabond
Registered User
 
Vagabond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,139
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Vagabond
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckNut79 View Post
Sorry bro, but I disagree. Yes, he was awful on the ice, and yes, he didn't live up to the standards you all witnessed in Edmonton. But off the ice, he taught Nazzy how to be a captain. Having the "greatest leader in all of sports" (questionable) had quite the price tag I might add, but he did fill the building every night.....even when they were god awful.

I think the worst thing ever to happen to the Canucks was the Cam Neely deal, but the Luongo deal is making up for that! (so far)
'Nuck fans don't like the fact they took the "C" off Linden and put it on the Moose.. simply becuse of him being the Moose.

Vagabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 10:12 AM
  #69
ONOilersFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
Numbers should ONLY be retired in very special circumstances. Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Rocket Richard, Howe, etc. There are too many numbers retired as it is. I think there should be two levels of honours. Number retirement for the ABSOLUTE best, and then a number honouring (like the Leafs do) for players that are special to a franchise but not in that top level.

ONOilersFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 02:31 PM
  #70
CanadianDestroyer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 222
vCash: 500
It should always be about who contributed more to the franchise rather than a simple numbers game or the subjective HHOF. Al Hamilton only played a season in the NHL, yet did a lot for the WHA Oilers (lead the team in games, assists and points): hence why his number was retired. He did a lot for the franchise, not so much in the NHL, hence his sweater retirement.

CanadianDestroyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 03:48 PM
  #71
Tatehamma
Registered User
 
Tatehamma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 331
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Tatehamma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
'Nuck fans don't like the fact they took the "C" off Linden and put it on the Moose.. simply becuse of him being the Moose.
Actually, Linden gave it to Messier, could you blame him? So whichever Nuck fans you are talking about are obviously not real Nuck fans.

Tatehamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 04:59 PM
  #72
dasivon
Registered User
 
dasivon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Spruce Grove, AB
Posts: 1,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONOilersFan View Post
Numbers should ONLY be retired in very special circumstances. Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Rocket Richard, Howe, etc. There are too many numbers retired as it is. I think there should be two levels of honours. Number retirement for the ABSOLUTE best, and then a number honouring (like the Leafs do) for players that are special to a franchise but not in that top level.
I hate agreeing with this on so many levels (an OOF initialed person and anything to do with the Leafs), but you're right. What happened to just honoring players?

dasivon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 06:11 PM
  #73
hockeyaddict101
Registered User
 
hockeyaddict101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 19,904
vCash: 500
The question really shouldn't be whether Vernon deserved to have his number retired by the Flames (I would argue that he did)

The question is starting to be the length of the ceremonies.

After the Vernon ceremony the NHL is looking into the length of them, they are getting out of hand.

It was over an hour and Messier's (New York retirement) took forever.

hockeyaddict101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 06:17 PM
  #74
Vagabond
Registered User
 
Vagabond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,139
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Vagabond
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckNut79 View Post
Actually, Linden gave it to Messier, could you blame him? So whichever Nuck fans you are talking about are obviously not real Nuck fans.
I checked into it and appears you're correct.

Vagabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 06:22 PM
  #75
Ricelund
We like our team.
 
Ricelund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Detroit, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 5,010
vCash: 500
Jersey retirement got out of hand the minute Colorado retired Bourque's number. Pathetic.

Ricelund is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.