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Old
02-09-2007, 09:38 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
I didn't now sexuality was a CRITERIA in looking for/being a role model.
When was the last time you heard a straight man say "Wow, that guy is straight, he is such a role model!"?
?
Hey, as a straight guy, my need or desire for straight role models throughout my life has been so reflexively and automatically filled that it's never been an issue.

But minority concerns aren't the same as majority concerns. That can't possibly be new information to you?

The impact of people like Joe Lewis, Jackie Robinson and even Willie O'Ree on the aspirations of black men was huge (not to mention their larger sociological significance). The impact of athletes like Manon Rheaume and Haley Wickenheiser on young female skaters who don't want to shave the blades off their sticks is something that needs to be considered through the eyes of those young female skaters, not yours or mine.

And the same will be true of the first openly gay active player in major North American sport when it comes to, among other things, the aspirations of other gay athletes and gay men.

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02-09-2007, 09:40 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
Well said, I personally am a Christian and believe it is immoral, and I know most people don't like that, and that is fine, but I won't get into that further.

The fact is, people are all people and should be treated with respect. Just because I disagree with someones choices isn't going to cause me to spend my time judging them and it shouldn't for anyone on any topic IMO. Like I tell the gay couple I know on campus here, I don't tell other non-Christians they have to follow the beliefs I hold, why would it be any different for them?

Therefore, let the pro athletes continue to live as they believe they should, no different from any other human.
Your intentions, morality and general common sence are obviously are in the right place, but with one small exception that may seem small at first, but is the foundation of why the gay community continues to feel as they do....

Choice

While my perspective on this particular topic is limited since im not gay, i can't help but wonder why so many people continue to insist that being gay is a choice..

Just seems as a morality end around to continue the status quo

Now about gays in the NHL... The culture may have alot to do with why NHL players don't come out publicly, but so does the fact the NHL players in mass don't publicly speak about much of anything outside of the game of Hockey.... Hockey Quote Robots and any questions outside of Hockey besides a few tosses of love to the family has them running for the hills.... I'm sure every hockey fan has heard of or knew a gay NHL player at one time or another but it's obvious no one cared enough to care or make it an issue of any kind....

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02-09-2007, 09:41 AM
  #78
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I know of a former player that's homosexual. He told me while still playing, but he was at the end of career and in the minors. He trusted me with the info and I never told anyone.

But it never made a difference to me. If you're good at what you do, who cares what your sexual orientation is?

There's so many more important things in the world. It's sad though that it makes such a big difference to some people.

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02-09-2007, 09:44 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
I didn't now sexuality was a CRITERIA in looking for/being a role model.When was the last time you heard a straight man say "Wow, that guy is straight, he is such a role model!"?
BTW I was always under the impression that sexuality was personal, and not a choice. If that theory is true, then this is nothing more than hypocracy and marketing at its finest.
Wow you're gay....so what? Want an award or something?
Last I checked, being a Homosexual was in the minority. Therefore as a minority group, if someone were to come out of the closet, they would inspire that group.

It's not unlike, as mentioned earlier, Jackie Robinson breaking the colour barrier in baseball. He became an inspiration and a roll mole for others that followed him. A gay athlete who came out, ie in the NHL, would inspire other gay players and young gay players to make the NHL and be condifent in themselves in doing it.

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02-09-2007, 09:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PuckNut View Post
It is personal and it's not a choice. What is a choice is to come out of the closet in a market where nobody else has before. Some groups see that as a brave and admirable thing to do.
Do you actually think most people give two-****s wether you're gay or not? Seriously, most intelligent people I know, don't look at individuals based on their sexuality. I would also suggest that the "brave and admirable" thing you talk about, is nothing but a temporary thing, fueled by the media and certain groups...because after the cameras stop rolling, you're no different than any other gay/straight person out there.
Here's your Oscar, your 15 minutes are up, see you later.
BTW Its one thing to come out to a friend or your family, its another to do it in front of the media circus and have certain groups demanding you to live up to their agenda.
Slow news day, like I said....
Also, ever think maybe some homosexuals don't feel the need to come out to the masses or don't feel the need to reveal their sexuality to anyone other than who they want to reveal it to?

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02-09-2007, 09:54 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Last I checked, being a Homosexual was in the minority. Therefore as a minority group, if someone were to come out of the closet, they would inspire that group.

It's not unlike, as mentioned earlier, Jackie Robinson breaking the colour barrier in baseball. He became an inspiration and a roll mole for others that followed him. A gay athlete who came out, ie in the NHL, would inspire other gay players and young gay players to make the NHL and be condifent in themselves in doing it.
this pretty much sums up why the first active gay athlete in a sport (any sport) is an essential turning point (whether good or bad, depends on your perspective) in the world of sports.

Personally, I'd love to see sports and the atmosphere that athletes live in change dramatically to allow for a more open dialogue on sexuality in general. Right now, sports are too hyper-masculine, even if the individuals are accepting, to not create friction if an athlete came out as gay during their career.

I'll also air out his bit of baggage; there's no legitimate evidence that homosexuality is simply a choice. Sexuality cannot be simply pegged down to a DNA strand or a brain defect or any of the current theories getting battered about. Sexuality in general is a mixture of many internal and external factors, but is a natural occurrence in the natural world; having studied gender issues in both sociology and political science, there simply isn't any proof otherwise.

I just had to get that out there. I don't want to belittle any contrary opinions, just clarify my particular positions on the basis of my academic and personal experience.

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02-09-2007, 09:56 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
Do you actually think most people give two-****s wether you're gay or not? Seriously, most intelligent people I know, don't look at individuals based on their sexuality. I would also suggest that the "brave and admirable" thing you talk about, is nothing but a temporary thing, fueled by the media and certain groups...because after the cameras stop rolling, you're no different than any other gay/straight person out there.
Here's your Oscar, your 15 minutes are up, see you later.
BTW Its one thing to come out to a friend or your family, its another to do it in front of the media circus and have certain groups demanding you to live up to their agenda.
Slow news day, like I said.
I agree most people wouldn't care if a person is gay or not. But most people are also not gay. I'm not, and I don't care if a person is gay or straight. But I agree with Jimmi too. People look for certain qualities in a role model. Qualities that show the person is like them. A strong figure who shares traits. Minorities like to have role models who are like them. It's as simple as that.

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02-09-2007, 09:57 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CanadianCommie View Post
this pretty much sums up why the first active gay athlete in a sport (any sport) is an essential turning point (whether good or bad, depends on your perspective) in the world of sports.

Personally, I'd love to see sports and the atmosphere that athletes live in change dramatically to allow for a more open dialogue on sexuality in general. Right now, sports are too hyper-masculine, even if the individuals are accepting, to not create friction if an athlete came out as gay during their career.

I'll also air out his bit of baggage; there's no legitimate evidence that homosexuality is simply a choice. Sexuality cannot be simply pegged down to a DNA strand or a brain defect or any of the current theories getting battered about. Sexuality in general is a mixture of many internal and external factors, but is a natural occurrence in the natural world; having studied gender issues in both sociology and political science, there simply isn't any proof otherwise.

I just had to get that out there. I don't want to belittle any contrary opinions, just clarify my particular positions on the basis of my academic and personal experience.
Just wanted to agree with you on that as well. Do you choose if you're more attracted to blondes or brunettes, or does it just happen?

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02-09-2007, 10:00 AM
  #84
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God knows there are more than a couple in womens hockey.

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02-09-2007, 10:04 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by PuckNut View Post
Just wanted to agree with you on that as well. Do you choose if you're more attracted to blondes or brunettes, or does it just happen?
it seems like a simple question, but it has profound implications.

Why are we sexually attracted to certain body types or personality traits or something as simple as one hair colour over another?

I could debate theses issues for HOURS.

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Old
02-09-2007, 10:07 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
Well said, I personally am a Christian and believe it is immoral, and I know most people don't like that, and that is fine, but I won't get into that further.

The fact is, people are all people and should be treated with respect. Just because I disagree with someones choices isn't going to cause me to spend my time judging them and it shouldn't for anyone on any topic IMO. Like I tell the gay couple I know on campus here, I don't tell other non-Christians they have to follow the beliefs I hold, why would it be any different for them?

Therefore, let the pro athletes continue to live as they believe they should, no different from any other human.
They should be respected....just not by you or your religion?

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02-09-2007, 10:09 AM
  #87
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I think someone coming out would be a great thing.

It might seem unimportant to most, but consider that these hockey players have to spend their entire careers spending a great deal of time with people, some of whome I think need to have their eyes opened that some of their teammates might be gay.

I'm constantly surprised at some of the stuff that's said, even on National tv... I remember one sportsnet piece that asked players which would you rather have to do... a)take a slapshot to the face, or b)watch brokeback mountain... the joke of course was that some players said they would prefer to take a slapshot to the face than watch a gay movie. From my experience on sports teams, I can only imagine the stuff that's said behind closed doors. I personally think it would be hellish to spend 8 hours a day in this environment if you were gay.

I also personally think that if the players knew that a few players around the league were gay, then maybe some of this stuff wouldn't happen... so I would say if someone came out, it would not be for your benifit as a fan, but in order to tone down some of the homophobia that I'm sure exists in the hockey world.

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02-09-2007, 10:15 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
Do you actually think most people give two-****s wether you're gay or not? Seriously, most intelligent people I know, don't look at individuals based on their sexuality. I would also suggest that the "brave and admirable" thing you talk about, is nothing but a temporary thing, fueled by the media and certain groups...because after the cameras stop rolling, you're no different than any other gay/straight person out there.
Here's your Oscar, your 15 minutes are up, see you later.
BTW Its one thing to come out to a friend or your family, its another to do it in front of the media circus and have certain groups demanding you to live up to their agenda.
Slow news day, like I said....
Also, ever think maybe some homosexuals don't feel the need to come out to the masses or don't feel the need to reveal their sexuality to anyone other than who they want to reveal it to?
Did you see the recent result on the gay marriage question in the US? It is disgusting how little they are thought of by many. States were voting 90-10 in favor of continuing to prohibit gays from marrying. Often people say "they can do their thing I have no problem with it, just dont come near us" type thing. Basically, they are calling homosexuals freak shows that will destroy their childrens lives. It is very disappointing to say the least. It seems like women had to go through this, then african-americans went through this and this is the next color in the discrimination rainbow. The US say they are a free country but really, so many of them are stuck in archaic discriminatory views, it is quite sad.

-Just like to add. CNN.com had a poll a few days ago about gay atheletes. They asked the question something along the lines of "If an athlete on your favorite team came out, would you "Support the player" or "Change teams"(no not in that sense lol) and when I saw the results at the time it was about only 70/30 in favor of supporting the player.

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02-09-2007, 10:25 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
Do you actually think most people give two-****s wether you're gay or not?
Actually yes... this is why we have so many people speak out against it. And talk about it like it's some disease infecting society.

Quote:
Seriously, most intelligent people I know, don't look at individuals based on their sexuality.
Congrats. I'm the same way. At the same time, while I know a fair amount of people, there are a hell of a lot more people that I don't know personally, and there are a lot of people who I see on TV and read about in the newspapers who are willing to factor in someone's sexuality

Quote:
I would also suggest that the "brave and admirable" thing you talk about, is nothing but a temporary thing, fueled by the media and certain groups...because after the cameras stop rolling, you're no different than any other gay/straight person out there.
That's a nice fantasy world, but people are still judged in our society by things like their skin colour, sexuality, religious beliefs, etc... And if everyone had the view that you are no different regardless of sex/skin colour/sexual preference/etc... then it wouldn't matter.

It's much like same sex marriages. It's becoming less and less of an issue in society, but there are still people who are very much against it, and there are still places in North America where you will be treated differently if you are apart of an inter-racial relationship.

If it was a non-issue, it wouldn't be news.

Quote:
Here's your Oscar, your 15 minutes are up, see you later.
BTW Its one thing to come out to a friend or your family, its another to do it in front of the media circus and have certain groups demanding you to live up to their agenda.
Slow news day, like I said....

Also, ever think maybe some homosexuals don't feel the need to come out to the masses or don't feel the need to reveal their sexuality to anyone other than who they want to reveal it to?
The issue isn't just coming out... it's feeling free to live how you want to live. It's not just about coming out to the media in front of all the lights and cameras, but instead it's about being able to live your everyday life.

If I'm player X on the Edmonton Oilers and I am gay, why can't I just walk into the safeway with my boyfriend holding his hand, like Ryan Smyth might hold his wife's hand when walking into the same store?

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02-09-2007, 10:28 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insta View Post
Did you see the recent result on the gay marriage question in the US? It is disgusting how little they are thought of by many. States were voting 90-10 in favor of continuing to prohibit gays from marrying. Often people say "they can do their thing I have no problem with it, just dont come near us" type thing. Basically, they are calling homosexuals freak shows that will destroy their childrens lives. It is very disappointing to say the least. It seems like women had to go through this, then african-americans went through this and this is the next color in the discrimination rainbow. The US say they are a free country but really, so many of them are stuck in archaic discriminatory views, it is quite sad.

-Just like to add. CNN.com had a poll a few days ago about gay atheletes. They asked the question something along the lines of "If an athlete on your favorite team came out, would you "Support the player" or "Change teams"(no not in that sense lol) and when I saw the results at the time it was about only 70/30 in favor of supporting the player.
There's a difference between your view on gays and gay marriage. Some people have the view that marriage is a union between man and woman, but at the same time have no problems with gays in general. They are even okay with gays getting the same rights as "married" people (i.e. the ability to do things like share work benefits, get similar tax benefits as married people, etc...), only calling it something else.

It's important to make that distinction.

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02-09-2007, 10:47 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
If I'm player X on the Edmonton Oilers and I am gay, why can't I just walk into the safeway with my boyfriend holding his hand, like Ryan Smyth might hold his wife's hand when walking into the same store?
Most couples today rarely hold hands. Its a society issue.
This isn't about everyone being happy, its about everyone being equally miserable.
All I'm saying is the whole "1st to come out of the closet" in front of the masses takes on a whole different animal/meaning than the rightfull purpose.
I don't need to know if an individual is gay/straight to like them and be a fan.... so why do certain individuals need to know a person's sexuality, for them to be considered a role model.
If its not a criteria, then it shouldn't be an issue.

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02-09-2007, 10:49 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by dawgbone View Post
There's a difference between your view on gays and gay marriage. Some people have the view that marriage is a union between man and woman, but at the same time have no problems with gays in general. They are even okay with gays getting the same rights as "married" people (i.e. the ability to do things like share work benefits, get similar tax benefits as married people, etc...), only calling it something else.

It's important to make that distinction.
Well I could probably count on one hand the number of states that allow these "civil unions" or whatever they are called.

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02-09-2007, 10:52 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
Most couples today rarely hold hands. Its a society issue.
This isn't about everyone being happy, its about everyone being equally miserable.
All I'm saying is the whole "1st to come out of the closet" in front of the masses takes on a whole different animal/meaning than the rightfull purpose.
I don't need to know if an individual is gay/straight to like them and be a fan.... so why do certain individuals need to know a person's sexuality, for them to be considered a role model.
If its not a criteria, then it shouldn't be an issue.
It shouldn't be a criteria, but it is to some people. I agree with you, about the first to come out thing, and I don't need to know either, but you have to admit that if a person comes out as gay, there are people from both sides that would change how they see that person. I think we both wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

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02-09-2007, 11:07 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by PuckNut View Post
It shouldn't be a criteria, but it is to some people. I agree with you, about the first to come out thing, and I don't need to know either, but you have to admit that if a person comes out as gay, there are people from both sides that would change how they see that person. I think we both wish that wasn't the case, but it is.
Agreed here.

Skimming thru this thread, it makes me realize how sad society is when they NEED to know someone's sexual orientation.

You take the best hockey player in the world, and he comes out with he is gay, WHO CARES? He is still be best hockey player in the world. What he does with his stick is his choice.

I think the media and special interest groups aggravate the situtation more than society does.
While we bandy a multitude of terms for gay people (which are supposedly derogatory, yet if you call me Hetro womanizer I love it.)

I just do not understand why society is so fixated on who kisses whom. Its almost like people are jealous that they are not something that someone else is.

Its lame.

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02-09-2007, 11:12 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranold26 View Post
Most couples today rarely hold hands. Its a society issue.
I don't know where you live, but I still hold my wife's hand, or she'll hold my arm, or I'll have my arm around her, or something of that nature. Not every second mind you, but through the course of making our way through the grocery store, we will have that sort of physical contact at least once.

Quote:
All I'm saying is the whole "1st to come out of the closet" in front of the masses takes on a whole different animal/meaning than the rightfull purpose.
The purpose is that it increases awareness and maybe nudges society (even if it's only a little bit) to a place where it is more acceptable, and also maybe allows other people in the same situation to be able to feel better about being who they are and not hiding it.

Quote:
I don't need to know if an individual is gay/straight to like them and be a fan....
No, but for some people knowing that they are gay make make them hate the player. It's unfortunate that this exists, but it's true and it's part of the reason why so few pro athletes are comfortable with "outing" themselves (even away from the media and within their day to day lives).

Quote:
so why do certain individuals need to know a person's sexuality, for them to be considered a role model.
If its not a criteria, then it shouldn't be an issue.
There is no set criteria for being a role model. A role model is someone who is looked up to for any variety of reasons. Anything from religion, skin colour, etc...

Why do some black people need a black role model? Why is skin colour a criteria? How is it any different?

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02-09-2007, 11:13 AM
  #96
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While we bandy a multitude of terms for gay people (which are supposedly derogatory, yet if you call me Hetro womanizer I love it.)
I've never heard the term "Homo mananizer" used, as a pejorative or a compliment.

I suppose it would all come down to how you said it.

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02-09-2007, 11:36 AM
  #97
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They should be respected....just not by you or your religion?
I didn't get that out of what was said. I don't see how you got that homosexuals aren't being accepted by him or his religion.

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02-09-2007, 11:38 AM
  #98
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I didn't get that out of what was said. I don't see how you got that homosexuals aren't being accepted by him or his religion.
If they are viewed as immoral, how can they be accepeted?

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02-09-2007, 11:49 AM
  #99
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In the same way that they might view birth control as immoral but still respect someone who uses it. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't think it's immoral, but I just didn't get that vibe out of what was said. I didn't focus in on the "immoral" part of what was said, I guess I just put my emphasis on respecting people regardless.

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02-09-2007, 11:53 AM
  #100
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Okay, here's the deal: 6 posts so far, 4 deleted. If you wish to make some respectful comments on the topic at hand please go ahead. If you want to make vicious comments on players/posters/etc please move along.
bahahahahahahahaha nice board

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