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02-09-2007, 12:01 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Lawgirl View Post
In the same way that they might view birth control as immoral but still respect someone who uses it. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't think it's immoral, but I just didn't get that vibe out of what was said. I didn't focus in on the "immoral" part of what was said, I guess I just put my emphasis on respecting people regardless.
I guess I just see it differently. If someone is seen as immoral, you don't really respect them. If I think someone is immoral, I may still "treat" them with respect, but that doesn't mean I actually respect them at all. I just pretend I do.

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02-09-2007, 12:02 PM
  #102
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LOL nobody in the NHL is gay. Are you serious LMAO.

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02-09-2007, 12:05 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawgirl View Post
In the same way that they might view birth control as immoral but still respect someone who uses it. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't think it's immoral, but I just didn't get that vibe out of what was said. I didn't focus in on the "immoral" part of what was said, I guess I just put my emphasis on respecting people regardless.
"I don't tell other non-Christians they have to follow the beliefs I hold", about sums it up. Birth control is a choice, hating on someone for something they cant control is wrong.

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02-09-2007, 12:06 PM
  #104
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i've just skimmed through the whole thread and find it funny that some people will ask: "do you think it matters who is gay or not" along with the "no one cares".

Maybe some of you have lived under a rock, or just have never experienced the reality of the situation.

Why is it that no hockey player will ever have his boyfriend there after the game, or speak of his boyfriend in interviews (like we've seen players speak of their wives), or that no player has ever had the balls to come out?

People say: their privates lives are of no concern and is their own business. True, BUT, that life involves the public aspect whether you like it or not. They are loved by fans, are asked for autographs, are seen in public and recognized, HAVE their own lives (which may include a boyfriend, husband and maybe even children), they are interviewed often about hockey, but also about their life, etc..

random thoughts..

1. There IS still discrimination and hate. Montréal being one of the most "gay friendly" cities in North america still sees gay people being assaulted because of their sexual orientation.

2. a player coming out would become the "spokesperson" for gay people and the gay movement and that's all interviewers or people would want to talk about.. forever.. unless some other players came out.

3. Fans. We hear players called "*******" in arenas even when they are not gay, imagine after.

IMO, there's also the fear that players would not accept it, but i think that the fear is way worse than what would actually happen. I played with an ex NHLer who played in the 70's, and he told me that his teammates eventually found out because a few puckbunnies followed him to a gay bar one night after the game and told everyone. He says his teammates accepted it fine.

Enrico Ciccone also once said that he wouldn't care at all if he had gay teammates and that NO, he wouldn't be all scared to take a shower.

The site someone was looking for earlier is Outsports, and from polls we've seen in the last few years, i think i'd put the sports (in terms of chances of ever seeing a player come out) as follows: hockey, football, basketball, baseball.

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02-09-2007, 12:10 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Leph28 View Post
i've just skimmed through the whole thread and find it funny that some people will ask: "do you think it matters who is gay or not" along with the "no one cares".

Maybe some of you have lived under a rock, or just have never experienced the reality of the situation.

Why is it that no hockey player will ever have his boyfriend there after the game, or speak of his boyfriend in interviews (like we've seen players speak of their wives), or that no player has ever had the balls to come out?

my opinion on it:

1. There IS still discrimination and hate. Montréal being one of the most "gay friendly" cities in North america still sees gay people being assaulted because of their sexual orientation.

2. a player coming out would become the "spokesperson" for gay people and the gay movement and that's all interviewers or people would want to talk about.. forever.. unless some other players came out.

3. Fans. We hear players called "*******" in arenas even when they are not gay, imagine after.
And that's pretty much the gist of it right there. As much as people like to think that there is no discrimination anymore, there is.

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02-09-2007, 12:13 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by PuckNut View Post
I guess I just see it differently. If someone is seen as immoral, you don't really respect them. If I think someone is immoral, I may still "treat" them with respect, but that doesn't mean I actually respect them at all. I just pretend I do.
I don't disagree with you on that. You can't make someone respect someone else, nor can you expect them to. All you can ask it that they do treat them with respect. If someone thinks I'm immoral, it would be unreasonable for me to think that I deserve their respect, but it's not unreasonable for me to be entitled to be treated respectfully. No one makes a big deal that you treat people with respect when you don't really respect them, so why should it be any different for people who think homosexuality is immoral. I don't agree with Kruezer's views on homosexuals, but I appreciate that he treats them with respect.

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02-09-2007, 12:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Insta View Post
"I don't tell other non-Christians they have to follow the beliefs I hold", about sums it up. Birth control is a choice, hating on someone for something they cant control is wrong.
I agree with you, but how did he give you the impression that he was hating on homosexuals?

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02-09-2007, 12:16 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Lawgirl View Post
I don't disagree with you on that. You can't make someone respect someone else, nor can you expect them to. All you can ask it that they do treat them with respect. If someone thinks I'm immoral, it would be unreasonable for me to think that I deserve their respect, but it's not unreasonable for me to be entitled to be treated respectfully. No one makes a big deal that you treat people with respect when you don't really respect them, so why should it be any different for people who think homosexuality is immoral. I don't agree with Kruezer's views on homosexuals, but I appreciate that he treats them with respect.
And that's pretty much all you can ask of some people, which I can respect.

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02-09-2007, 12:58 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Lawgirl View Post
I agree with you, but how did he give you the impression that he was hating on homosexuals?
By saying it is immoral and unchristian, even though they have no choice as to what their sexual orientation is.

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Old
02-09-2007, 01:28 PM
  #110
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Wow! I have to say after reading this thread I'm pretty impressed with the maturity, intelligence and healthy discussion of this topic.

I have a few points to make from someone who is intimate with the situation.

First of all, it really bothers me that some still suggest its a CHOICE. Do you think I chose it? Do you think I chose to go through junior hockey being so incredibly different than most of my teammates in such a hated and stigmatized way? Afraid to get caught, unable to express my feelings or pursue any romantic interests? (not on the team) When you're a junior-aged guy there are 2 things in your mind... hockey and sex. It is not a good feeling to be so different and certainly any sane person would not CHOOSE to be.

I actually believe that the number of gay hockey players in the NHL is significantly lower than the population average for 2 reasons. First of all, I believe there are 2 types of gay men. Ones who are normal everyday guys who just happen to be attracted to dudes, and guys who seem to have dominant female genes and are predisposed to more effeminate activity. Those men most likely will never participate in a physical sport like hockey because they simply don't like it. I believe there are more of the second type of gay man than first, but it just may be because more of type 2 are out, or obviously gay, while the first kind blend in.

The second reason I believe there are less gay players in the NHL is how incredibly difficult it can be to be gay and in a high level of organized sport. Homophobia is still quite prevalent in sport and its hard to hear yourself attacked over and over again, and demonized in the locker room etc. You may not be out to your team, but thier comments are still directed at you, because you are the 'f-a-g'. I know of several friends and aquaintances, who when I tell them that I play hockey say "I used to play" but many just can't handle the constant homophobic comments. Also, imagine for a second not being able to find and/or openly be with someone that you love or care for. Things that most people take for granted like going to an event with thier partner, sharing a life experience publicly etc.

Having said ALL that (sorry for being long winded) I have my suspicions about 2 players currently in the NHL, one on the Oils roster and one long time Oiler. I am not obviously going to comment any further out of respect for them and this board. If I was to guess, I would say there are probably 20-30 gay players in the NHL. Of course if you add bi dudes, I bet that number soars. We could get into the Kinsey scale but I don't want to bore you any further.

I also wanted to say that there has been a huge and sweeping change of mentality in hockey dressing rooms over the past 10 years IMO. Verbal gay bashing used to be rampant in change rooms, but I very rarely hear any homophobic comments at hockey now, and this includes all cities I've played in like Van Cal Ed and Wpg. The cultural acceptance of gays seems to be taking hold at the grassroots level and is powered by youth. I played on a team that knew about me a couple of years ago, and there was no prob... guys didn't wait for me to finish showering before they did etc. (I was their best player and most physical defenceman, so that might have had something to do with it). I still believe however that it will be quite a while before we have our first out NHL player. It's just too hard to make the league as it is without adding another roadblock to it. It will have to be a pretty big star who isn't afraid of losing his job.

As for the people who say "who cares!" or "they're looking for attention, why fawn on them for coming out?" to these pro athletes who have gone public, do you realize how incredibly ballsy it is to do that? How many of those young talented hockey players who quit cause they didnt think a '***' could make it, might have kept going to greatness if they had only had a role model? I never quit cause I personally didn't care enough about it, my love for hockey was alot stronger (I wish my skill had have been stronger too), but for some its just too hard to take.

With that I have just outed myself on HF. Hopefully I don't become a martyr

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02-09-2007, 01:44 PM
  #111
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Earlier this year, I overheard the GM of an NHL team use the word ****** in casual conversation. He sounded a lot like my racist uncle who still calls black people n****** in normal conversation. The casualness of the prejudice is the stunning part of it to me...

Wow: The HF filter stars out gay slurs but not black ones. Yikes.

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02-09-2007, 01:52 PM
  #112
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Why should people discuss what they like to do sexually? Why should some athlete announce that he likes to have sex with guys? Should players also come out of the closet and announce that they like threesomes? Orgies? Watching their wife with other men? Honestly, who on earth needs to hear about some athletes sexual "adventures".

If a player wants to have sex with men that is his own business. Don't announce it and make it some kind of issue. Keep the bedroom activities in the bedroom.

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02-09-2007, 01:56 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet228 View Post
Wow! I have to say after reading this thread I'm pretty impressed with the maturity, intelligence and healthy discussion of this topic.
Good post. I do not agree with the "black and white" way you put the 2 "types" of gay men, but other than that i agree with pretty much everything else. It's funny you classified them as black and white, and the "long term" Oiler you talk about (if it's who i'm thinking) seems a bit effeminate to me. Last time i saw him interviewed, i thought: ok, how could anyone NOT know now.

I also have very strong suspicions about a few players, but i believe players should come out IF they want to.. not being forced to or publicly outed by others.

Still, as ballsy as one would have to be to come out, i wish some would. As you said, not a 3rd liner who could wind up in the minors the next week, but rather a STAR player who (as you said) won't lose his job. It would go a long way towards changing the homophobic image a professional sport like hockey projects. And as you said, youngsters could look up to this or those players and at least know that not all gay guys are flamers or guys who end up hairdressers or in fashion (not that there's anything wrong with that).


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Old
02-09-2007, 01:57 PM
  #114
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First of all, it really bothers me that some still suggest its a CHOICE. Do you think I chose it? Do you think I chose to go through junior hockey being so incredibly different than most of my teammates in such a hated and stigmatized way? :
I don't think you chose to have those feelings but, my question is: Why do you choose to think of it as just the way you are instead of thinking of it as a problem that should be dealt with?

People have schizophrenia and other mental issues, why do you not consider it like those? Lots of people have thoughts and preferences that are not the norm and they choose to not act on them or they do act and suffer the consequences.

Why is homosexuality thought of differently than other mental maladies?

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02-09-2007, 01:58 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Why should people discuss what they like to do sexually?
because it doesn't just have to do with what goes on in the bedroom.

It affects everything, including who you share your life with (both in private AND in public).

A player walking into the arena with his boyfriend would automatically be outed, and some would still say: why do they need to talk about homosexuality, it should stay in the bedroom!


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02-09-2007, 02:00 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Leph28 View Post
because it doesn't just have to do with what goes on in the bedroom.

It affects everything, including who you share your life with (both in private AND in public).

A player walking into the arena with his boyfriend would automatically be outed, and some would still say: why do they need to talk about homosexuality, it should stay in the bedroom!

Why is it not thought of as a mental problem that should be treated? Why is it thought of as something completely acceptable and normal?

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02-09-2007, 02:00 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Keep the bedroom activities in the bedroom.
I think that's advice homophobic or at least homosexually intolerant parties in the lockerrom need to take to heart first, and it's exactly that practice- that carrying personal lives over to the ice- that is what's holding some homosexual athletes back from not being afraid to answer 'yes' to the question of whether they 'are or they aren't'.

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02-09-2007, 02:01 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Insta View Post
By saying it is immoral and unchristian, even though they have no choice as to what their sexual orientation is.
Sorry for just replying to you insta, this goes out to the couple people who responded to me.

I don't believe that if I disagree with someone that I am disrespecting them, people disagree with each other all the time, disrespect is something much larger than believing differing things IMO.

I don't want to get into the choice debate, I would rather not turn this into a religious debate thread, and because people really do not like views on it, and when I say that I mean both Christians and non-Christians, suffice to say that I am not so close minded as to say that there is no physical aspect to sexuality, but I do believe its a choice.

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02-09-2007, 02:02 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
I don't think you chose to have those feelings but, my question is: Why do you choose to think of it as just the way you are instead of thinking of it as a problem that should be dealt with?

People have schizophrenia and other mental issues, why do you not consider it like those? Lots of people have thoughts and preferences that are not the norm and they choose to not act on them or they do act and suffer the consequences.

Why is homosexuality thought of differently than other mental maladies?
because that suggests there is a definitive norm of comparison (and one that can go undisputed, not simpl a common-sense-ideal).

What is the definitive norm of comparison to make such a diagnosis?

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02-09-2007, 02:03 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Why is it not thought of as a mental problem that should be treated? Why is it thought of as something completely acceptable and normal?
because it's not a mental problem. Why do you not find it acceptable?
No one forces no one to do something here.

As for normality, define it. Would a NORMAL person in this world be asian? how tall? left or right handed?

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02-09-2007, 02:04 PM
  #121
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because that suggests there is a definitive norm of comparison (and one that can go undisputed, not simpl a common-sense-ideal).

What is the definitive norm of comparison to make such a diagnosis?
Well, among other things, biology tells us what the common sense ideal is.

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02-09-2007, 02:04 PM
  #122
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As the OPs wear the 'A', so to speak, I'd just like to respectfully ask that this discussion on what Tencer calls 'philosophical differences' stays out.

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02-09-2007, 02:06 PM
  #123
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because it's not a mental problem. Why do you not find it acceptable?
No one forces no one to do something here.

As for normality, define it. Would a NORMAL person in this world be asian?
Please explain how it is not a mental problem. I could go on a long rant about "normal" but, just consider the biology of it. That is common sense enough to tell you what the "norm" is.

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02-09-2007, 02:07 PM
  #124
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Please explain how it is not a mental problem. I could go on a long rant about "normal" but, just consider the biology of it. That is common sense enough to tell you what the "norm" is.
how about you please explain how it IS a mental problem? no one refers to homosexuality that way.. or at least, no one has since the 70's.

As for your "biology", i've considered it. And the limited point of view you suggest seems to imply people only have sex for reproduction. No offense, but if that's the case, mrs. Ogopogo must find the bedroom quite boring.

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02-09-2007, 02:10 PM
  #125
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Well, among other things, biology tells us what the common sense ideal is.
that's a deflection more than an answer, and common sense is rarely rooted in anything other than a society's mythos.

what biology tells us is that a variety of sexuality is acceptable and often integrated into the social order. Dogs use it, monkeys use it, penguins use it. Nature has spoken and it has spoken in favour of flexible sexual behaviours.

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