HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Washington Capitals
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Cap Trap: Yay or Nay?

View Poll Results: Cap Tray: Yay or Nay?
Yay! 7 26.92%
Nay! 19 73.08%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-12-2007, 05:36 PM
  #26
HockeyCritter
Registered User
 
HockeyCritter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,656
vCash: 500
For now it is.

HockeyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2007, 06:01 PM
  #27
StikSav
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
Actually I'd like to change my vote to yes. The Flyers are 18 points behind us and at this rate with Olie gone for three weeks and the "Cap Trap" implemented, we might just be neck and neck with Philly by March 10.

StikSav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2007, 06:05 PM
  #28
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StikSav View Post
Actually I'd like to change my vote to yes. The Flyers are 18 points behind us and at this rate with Olie gone for three weeks and the "Cap Trap" implemented, we might just be neck and neck with Philly by March 10.
That's the spirit!


Langway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 07:58 AM
  #29
RonWilson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 27
vCash: 500
Ovy and Semin will NOT be happy playing the trap and for a "rebuilding" team, it makes no sense. The goal here should be to develop the skills of the players, not find a system that lets the team squeeze out a few extra wins (maybe).

RonWilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 08:03 AM
  #30
HockeyCritter
Registered User
 
HockeyCritter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,656
vCash: 500
Then what do you do?

Other than Ovechkin and Semin, the Caps simply do not have the talent or experience to play a wide open style of hockey at this time. They're making bad passes, poor decisions, unable to sustain a forecheck, cannot carry the puck into the attack zone, and are just too slow in their ability to execute a play (most noticeable on the power play). The team needs to simplify its play , work on fundamentals, steal a few points, and gain some confidence. If “trapping” is the way to achieve it for the short term, so be it.

Besides it is about TEAM and not INDIVIDUALS …. Been there, done that, don’t want to go back.

HockeyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 10:13 AM
  #31
StikSav
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCritter View Post
Then what do you do?

Other than Ovechkin and Semin, the Caps simply do not have the talent or experience to play a wide open style of hockey at this time. They're making bad passes, poor decisions, unable to sustain a forecheck, cannot carry the puck into the attack zone, and are just too slow in their ability to execute a play (most noticeable on the power play). The team needs to simplify its play , work on fundamentals, steal a few points, and gain some confidence. If “trapping” is the way to achieve it for the short term, so be it.

Besides it is about TEAM and not INDIVIDUALS …. Been there, done that, don’t want to go back.
What would I do? Play the same style of hockey the team played the firs thalf of the season. Why would you change now? Why does the team suck right now? Injuries to an already sub-par defense is pretty much the cause. So what is playing the trap going to do? It's not going to win games, the Rangers game proved that. Why frustrate and stifle your gifted offensive players to play a system that doesn't fit the personnel when either way you're not going to win? Just so you can lose games 2-1 rather than 6-4?

All Leonsis does is rave about how everyone in DC is missing out on the wonderous gift to all that is DC hockey in the Alexanders. And just when football shuts down for the season and people actually pay two seconds of attention to hockey now we want to play a style that will make everyone look at Ovechkin and ask what the big deal is. Terrible decision.

This team and the organization from top to bottom is headed in the wrong direction now and I just hope someone is able to stop the bleeding and salvage things for the die hard fans that are going to start walking away next season if there isn't dramatic improvement.

StikSav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 10:17 AM
  #32
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
How can someone possibly enjoy watching the trap?

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 11:33 AM
  #33
StikSav
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalPunishment View Post
How can someone possibly enjoy watching the trap?
The only way I can think someone would enjoy watching the trap is if your team was playing it in game seven of the Stanley Cup finals with a 3-1 lead.

StikSav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 04:34 PM
  #34
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StikSav View Post
What would I do? Play the same style of hockey the team played the firs thalf of the season. Why would you change now? Why does the team suck right now? Injuries to an already sub-par defense is pretty much the cause. So what is playing the trap going to do? It's not going to win games, the Rangers game proved that. Why frustrate and stifle your gifted offensive players to play a system that doesn't fit the personnel when either way you're not going to win? Just so you can lose games 2-1 rather than 6-4?

All Leonsis does is rave about how everyone in DC is missing out on the wonderous gift to all that is DC hockey in the Alexanders. And just when football shuts down for the season and people actually pay two seconds of attention to hockey now we want to play a style that will make everyone look at Ovechkin and ask what the big deal is. Terrible decision.

This team and the organization from top to bottom is headed in the wrong direction now and I just hope someone is able to stop the bleeding and salvage things for the die hard fans that are going to start walking away next season if there isn't dramatic improvement.
Brilliant explanation bro!

The trap makes ZERO sense for this team right now. We were better without it based on our personell and fans can even be entertained if we dont win.

Hanlon has obviously been striken with the bird flu.

It makes me salty just watching a few minutes of a game and knowing that thru the whole game we will get one or two real opportunities to score.

I mean the KINGS dominated us! We should really have lost that game as we got outplayed and their goalie laid an egg.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 06:04 PM
  #35
CapitalPunishment
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Maryland
Country: Armenia
Posts: 4,476
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StikSav View Post
The only way I can think someone would enjoy watching the trap is if your team was playing it in game seven of the Stanley Cup finals with a 3-1 lead.
Yawn. In the end your favorite team winning means nothing to you unless you have a stake in the team and can profit from it. You watch hockey to be entertained and to well you know, ENJOY it. Sure you may win (Devils) but who else used their system and consistently won year after year after year other than them? NO ONE ELSE. Just because it works for THEM doesnt mean it'll work for you too.......

CapitalPunishment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 10:46 PM
  #36
StikSav
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalPunishment View Post
Yawn. In the end your favorite team winning means nothing to you unless you have a stake in the team and can profit from it. You watch hockey to be entertained and to well you know, ENJOY it. Sure you may win (Devils) but who else used their system and consistently won year after year after year other than them? NO ONE ELSE. Just because it works for THEM doesnt mean it'll work for you too.......
I think you can tell from my other posts on this thread that I'm certainly not advocating the trap for anyone, much less the Caps. The point I was making is that unless your team is winning Cups with the trap I can't imagine why anyone would want their team to play it. Devils fans are probably okay with it, but I can't imagine anyone else would be.

StikSav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-13-2007, 11:31 PM
  #37
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StikSav View Post
I think you can tell from my other posts on this thread that I'm certainly not advocating the trap for anyone, much less the Caps. The point I was making is that unless your team is winning Cups with the trap I can't imagine why anyone would want their team to play it. Devils fans are probably okay with it, but I can't imagine anyone else would be.
I can understand that certain teams would wind up playing a trapping style based on a roster that suits that strategy. But for that type of system to be consistently successful you must have a very savvy group of two-way, well-rounded forwards. The Caps don't have enough talent, depth and experience up front to play that style successfully. First and most importantly, when you trap an overwhelming amount of your offense comes off of transitioning via forced turnovers and from your power play. Both of these areas have been weaknesses for the Caps (sure, the PP numbers are middle of the pack but it's execution is often just terrible) because of a combination of poor passing, inexperience, poor forward play away from the puck, not getting traffic in front of the net and not having defensemen that are quick, creative and decisive with their play from the point.

What is baffling is why a rebuilding team would start with one game plan for, oh, 135 games under a coach and then decide to scrap it mid-season and go with a new system. (Particularly since that existing system is similar to what's played in Hershey, so as to make future transitions between the two clubs easier.) From my vantage point, the problem isn't the system...it has been a lack of motivation, consistent effort and an inattention to the technical side of the offensive game from the coaching staff on down. Trapping does nothing to address the fundamental flaws in their offensive game, it only places a shiny bandage on their defense while further wounding their offense, their collective intensity level, their sense of team identity and what it takes to win. That trade-off doesn't make any sense, imo.

If this is their long-term plan for success then I question Hanlon's decision making. The previous system, with more of a focus on improving their passing, their play away from the puck, their physicality and their collective intensity, is more suited for the personnel they currently have. Instead, you have a group of forwards that look lost, tentative and unsure how to attack.

Langway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-14-2007, 12:03 PM
  #38
StikSav
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 195
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway View Post
I can understand that certain teams would wind up playing a trapping style based on a roster that suits that strategy. But for that type of system to be consistently successful you must have a very savvy group of two-way, well-rounded forwards. The Caps don't have enough talent, depth and experience up front to play that style successfully. First and most importantly, when you trap an overwhelming amount of your offense comes off of transitioning via forced turnovers and from your power play. Both of these areas have been weaknesses for the Caps (sure, the PP numbers are middle of the pack but it's execution is often just terrible) because of a combination of poor passing, inexperience, poor forward play away from the puck, not getting traffic in front of the net and not having defensemen that are quick, creative and decisive with their play from the point.

What is baffling is why a rebuilding team would start with one game plan for, oh, 135 games under a coach and then decide to scrap it mid-season and go with a new system. (Particularly since that existing system is similar to what's played in Hershey, so as to make future transitions between the two clubs easier.) From my vantage point, the problem isn't the system...it has been a lack of motivation, consistent effort and an inattention to the technical side of the offensive game from the coaching staff on down. Trapping does nothing to address the fundamental flaws in their offensive game, it only places a shiny bandage on their defense while further wounding their offense, their collective intensity level, their sense of team identity and what it takes to win. That trade-off doesn't make any sense, imo.

If this is their long-term plan for success then I question Hanlon's decision making. The previous system, with more of a focus on improving their passing, their play away from the puck, their physicality and their collective intensity, is more suited for the personnel they currently have. Instead, you have a group of forwards that look lost, tentative and unsure how to attack.
Exactly! Best point in bold above. Great post.

StikSav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2007, 09:55 AM
  #39
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,718
vCash: 500
Bump.

I didn't notice much of a trap last night vs. the 'Ning, with Erskine & Pothier back in the lineup.

But will that be the case Sunday vs. the Pens? Stay tuned...

Langway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2007, 10:01 AM
  #40
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway View Post
Bump.

I didn't notice much of a trap last night vs. the 'Ning, with Erskine & Pothier back in the lineup.

But will that be the case Sunday vs. the Pens? Stay tuned...
They were trapping for the 1st two periods.

They abandoned it in the third..and coincidentally that was the best period of hockey the played since they employed the trap.

We had more scoring chances in the 3rd period alone than in the last two games PLUS the 1st 2 periods of last nights game.

You can tell we use the trap when that third man doesnt enter the picture in the offensive zone until way too late. Also another way to notice it is we dont rush 3 guys in the offensive zone unless we have a clear man advantage (ie 3 on 2)

I hope the 3rd period and OT of last nights game has shown the light to Hanlon.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2007, 10:13 AM
  #41
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,718
vCash: 500
I didn't notice it being used as much in the first period, either, but I did notice it for quite a while in the second period (then I stopped watching as closely as it turned mundane).

Hanlon did open it up in the third and it paid off, with 17 shots in the period. But it's like he has no confidence to use that system consistently. If he has confidence in the system and can motivate the team to play with intensity, then they've shown over the past 1 1/2 years+ that they can be successful with it.

Langway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2007, 10:27 AM
  #42
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway View Post
I didn't notice it being used as much in the first period, either, but I did notice it for quite a while in the second period (then I stopped watching as closely as it turned mundane).

Hanlon did open it up in the third and it paid off, with 17 shots in the period. But it's like he has no confidence to use that system consistently. If he has confidence in the system and can motivate the team to play with intensity, then they've shown over the past 1 1/2 years+ that they can be successful with it.
Yes. Did you also notice how much more effective Semin and Ovechkin were? It makes no sense.

We were a tough team to play against using this system (despite the obvious lack of talent thru the entire roster) for 1 and 1/2 years+ and then Suddenly go to the trap and stink it up. I'm surprised it took Hanlon that long to abandon it.

Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if HE GOES RIGHT BACK TO IT!

The way the Caps are run sometimes leaves you scratching your head...

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2007, 10:35 AM
  #43
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
What I don't understand is why does everyone have to play one way. Why can't certain lines play the trap (aka the ones with no offensive talent) and let the Ovechkin and Semin lines open it up.

In fact I wouldn't even mind if Semin's line used the trap, since he doesn't really use his current linemates anyway (speaking of Laich and Fehr). But in no way should Ovechkin's line be playing a trap.

Even the old Devils teams who made the trap so famous had that top line of Elias, Arnott and Sykora who played more of an offensive style of hockey.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2007, 10:37 AM
  #44
Jasper17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,309
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
Yes. Did you also notice how much more effective Semin and Ovechkin were? It makes no sense.

We were a tough team to play against using this system (despite the obvious lack of talent thru the entire roster) for 1 and 1/2 years+ and then Suddenly go to the trap and stink it up. I'm surprised it took Hanlon that long to abandon it.

Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if HE GOES RIGHT BACK TO IT!

The way the Caps are run sometimes leaves you scratching your head...
I don't believe for a second you have any doubt they will go back to it, and no one should?

It seems the Caps game plan is don't get embarrased, keep it close and then maybe we can try to get something from the game in the 3rd.

Jasper17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 09:02 AM
  #45
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway View Post
It's been the subject of recent controversy, as the team vehemently denies it has resorted itself to a neutral-zone trap. However, a good look at the system in place sure resembles one.

My (additional) questions are:
- Is this going to get disinterested hockey fans interested and entertained by the Caps' on-ice product? (We've seen some of the worst offensive efforts all year recently, after they started playing ultra-conservative.)
- If this is merely a temporary system in place while the likes of Pothier & Erskine are injured, why bother treading water on a patchwork system and get away from your typical game plan when it so significantly alters the activity of the forwards? They've managed to cut down on the goals against but it seems to have cut down on their goals for even moreso.
- This system is a vast departure from their previous system of puck pursuit and aggressive forechecking. If this isn't just a temporary fix, is this a good long-term developmental system for the team's young defensemen & forwards?

After the Rangers game, Hanlon sounded at a loss for any sort of remedy for the club's current problems:

I grant that Hanlon wasn't given much in the way of personnel to work with by GMGM but this institution of a trap seems to have killed the team's character. They don't seem like they're playing to win anymore...just not to lose.
Hey guy,

I myself wouldn't call it a "trap".

A trap is historically thought of as neutral zone, or as the Canadian's call it "Centre Ice", control. Canadians hate the term "neutral zone."...so I try & use it as much as I can when I'm around them.

What we're doing is much, much more.

I'd call what we're doing "the team, grinding game"....a.k.a the "sum of the whole is greater than its individual parts" scheme. Old timers call it "playing the body".

Ron Wilson's teams used versions of it extensively...when he could get em to play it, that is.

The modern version often incorporates a bit 'o the torpedo as to alignment scheme...an adjustment...depending on what area needs help and whether you need to pinch-up, etc...of the 1-2-2...2-1-2, etc. Where the term "trap" comes in is that often the centre or a wing will fall back to the neutral zone...hence some will call it a lock, or trap.

But whatever twist or version difference a team applies...one of the hallmarks is playing physically by establishing your checking game...and this is where problems come in. Players quickly tire of this scheme because it's hard on the body.

And consider: when you're playing this style, yes...you're slowing the other team down...but you're also slowing yourself down. So, as someone correctly observed on this thread, schemes like this can often leave your D-Man in deep water against tricky players deep in their own zone....something we don't need more of.

BTCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 09:40 AM
  #46
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,718
vCash: 500
BTCG: If you look at the forechecking system from the Pittsburgh game earlier in the month up until now, the majority of the time it has been a passive forecheck with a forward back to help out the defense.

his has been well documented (Tarik has written about it and Vogel touched on it on the Caps Report when the change first occured) and is a wide departure from their previous high-energy, puck pursuit style (which is, as you rightly note, a very high energy, physical style). Against the Pens on Sunday, they switched it up from time-to-time, as they did against the Lightning but it's still being used and has shifted their primary game plan away from a high-energy, physical attack to a more passive style. There has been little grind displayed over the past seven games with the exception of some physicality shown by Jurcina and Erskine on the opposition's forwards.

As you note, this does nothing to help out when the Caps are pinned in their own zone and under pressure...it merely slows down the opposition's transition game. But it also slows down their own transition game, which was horrible to begin with and now looks even worse.

Langway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 09:44 AM
  #47
Tinordi24*
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
I dont care if you call it the trap, left wing lock, center lock etc..

The essential purpose is all the same..to have at least 3 men back at all times and force the opposition into a dump and chase game.

Well...we are forcing them right into our weakness...to have our D control the opposition down low.

Also we are taking away our strength of transition scoring/on the rush attack from Ovechkin and Semin.

With McPhee's statements I believe it is here to stay ...regretably.

Tinordi24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 09:53 AM
  #48
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway View Post
BTCG: If you look at the forechecking system from the Pittsburgh game earlier in the month up until now, the majority of the time it has been a passive forecheck with a forward back to help out the defense.

his has been well documented (Tarik has written about it and Vogel touched on it on the Caps Report when the change first occured) and is a wide departure from their previous high-energy, puck pursuit style (which is, as you rightly note, a very high energy, physical style). Against the Pens on Sunday, they switched it up from time-to-time, as they did against the Lightning but it's still being used and has shifted their primary game plan away from a high-energy, physical attack to a more passive style. There has been little grind displayed over the past seven games with the exception of some physicality shown by Jurcina and Erskine on the opposition's forwards.

As you note, this does nothing to help out when the Caps are pinned in their own zone and under pressure...it merely slows down the opposition's transition game. But it also slows down their own transition game, which was horrible to begin with and now looks even worse.

Well...it's a trick used to keep the game closer...whatever variation. And I thought it was working about as well as it can...until the 3rd period, that is. They left their game in the locker room for the first part of that period.

Been enjoying reading your posts lately. You're a very good writer.

BTCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 10:00 AM
  #49
Langway
Moderator
Intangibles
 
Langway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
Well...it's a trick used to keep the game closer...whatever variation. And I thought it was working about as well as it can...until the 3rd period, that is. They left their game in the locker room for the first part of that period.

Been enjoying reading your posts lately. You're a very good writer.
Thanks.

My issue with the change in system is that it's a lazy way of adapting and adjusting. Instead of teaching and developing the defense, the team is instead masking its weaknesses in transition by playing more passive. That, in turn, comes at the price of their overall energy and intensity by weakening their forechecking game.

So much of Washington's success has been from feeding off of their intensity and energy. Under this game plan, that intensity is bottled up and that's negatively impacted their goal totals. Their goals for have gone down more than their goals against under the new system--that right there would be enough for me to switch back to the system that has proven moderately effective (when the team is motivated) over the past year and a half plus.

Langway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 10:11 AM
  #50
BTCG
Registered User
 
BTCG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway View Post
Thanks.

My issue with the change in system is that it's a lazy way of adapting and adjusting. Instead of teaching and developing the defense, the team is instead masking its weaknesses in transition by playing more passive. That, in turn, comes at the price of their overall energy and intensity by weakening their forechecking game.

So much of Washington's success has been from feeding off of their intensity and energy. Under this game plan, that intensity is bottled up and that's negatively impacted their goal totals. Their goals for have gone down more than their goals against under the new system--that right there would be enough for me to switch back to the system that has proven moderately effective (when the team is motivated) over the past year and a half plus.
Well...it's not much fun being a Caps fan these days....that's for sure.

But I'm not so sure that I'd call it a lazy reaction. Thing is...if you're implementing this type of strategy you've gotta expand your checking game...and this takes more energy.

Teaching & developing players at this level isn't something you're supposed to have to do...and Casey Stengle's speech to the NY Mets comes to mind:

"Does anybody here know how to play this game?

We're implementing this system because it's really all we can do. Teaching a horse how to run faster sounds good...but I don't think it's all that practical.


Last edited by BTCG: 02-20-2007 at 10:18 AM.
BTCG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.