Statistics-wise Sutherby, Gordon, and Laich are the same. Laich has a higher face-off percentage. Laich and Gordon have 3&2 shorties, respectively (Suts has none). Gordon and Suts have fewer goals, Laich has twice as many goals, but fewer assists. They all get about the same ice time. Gordon is +6, Laich is -4, Suts is -5. The biggest difference in stats is that Sutherby can't keep himself out of the penalty box - having 65 PIMS opposed to Laich's 15 and Gordo's 8.
To me they are pretty much interchangable. In the long run, I think it may be Laich that has more unrealized potential, or at least less time in the system so far that he can still improve, though it may not be a vast improvement. I think Suts has hit his plateau and Gordon may almost be there.
I stand corrected...4 goals it is...thats still a sad number ...Trent Whitfield-esque except that Trent stuck his nose where the opposition didnt want it..."the boy" doesnt go near where someone can hit him.
Usiel,
While its true that I never cared for Gordon he has done nothing to change my mind. He's the same player now that he was when he started the season on Jagr's line during the Butch era.
I agree with Critter that he and Brashear are two of the bottom six that havent regressed...but I'd still take a regressed Pettinger or Sutherby over an improved Gordon.
Sutherby answered the bell on Sat night but his teammates did not.
Ruh-oh ....... I think I'm scared.
I like Gordon's game ... I don't think it is an either/or situation. Gordon fills a specific role, something that Sutherby isn't able to do effectively at this time and something Pettinger isn't doing since he was moved to the "scoring" role.
I say keep Zubrus. Its pathetic that someone that inconsistent is still one of our top 4 forwards but he is. And its not a coincidence he will be getting 3 mil. At least he gives his all, uses his great size (to nail people and cycle) and can at least hang a little bit with Ovey offensively. He is not great in any one aspect of the game but decent at most all aspects of the game. We would be small at center without him - who is our next biggest center - Beech?? Sure we dont have to face a Lindros 7 times a year anymore but I wont forget all those years wondering why the caps never had a 6'2"+ center.
Exactly. I mean its not like we have better options than Zubrus.
Our centers going into next year without Zubrus:
1. Backstrom - assuming he comes over in the first place and adapts to NHL life very quickly...who knows what to expect from this kid.
2. Beech - NOT! He wont be back
3. Laich - It will be a horrible mistake to start him as a 2nd line center
4. Boyd Gordon - Zero offense here. I mean Zero. Our third or 4th line wont score much with him on it.
5. Sutherby - clearly has regressed and needs to gain back confidence.
6. Steckel - See 2 to 5. He's another non descript 3rd or 4th liner.
So you guys really think Ted and George will let Zubrus walk and then overpay drastically to convince someone like Drury or Gomez to come here? Pay them around $6 million to do so?
Not gonna happen. If we lose Zubrus then we will use our 1st round pick this year to draft another center and then ignore the D in free agency....
I like Gordon's game ... I don't think it is an either/or situation. Gordon fills a specific role, something that Sutherby isn't able to do effectively at this time and something Pettinger isn't doing since he was moved to the "scoring" role.
Gordon:
He's smallish center that wins 50% face offs. Nothing to note here.
He's decent positionally and an average/slightly above average skater. Easily found around the league.
4 goals in 114 games and its a wonder how he got those. He has terrible offensive instincts and one of the weakest shots I've seen in an NHL player.
He doesnt hit, stand up for himself, stand up for teammates or drive the net.
He HAS gotten better this year, but still he's a fringe player that would not be a 3rd line center on any team that is contending around the league.
I wouldnt mind him playing on the 4th line given his improvement, but if he is getting 22 min ice time then we wont be winning many games.
You must really be enamoured with Sutherby's stickhandling that makes it looks like he's trying to stir a vat of tar. Yeah...he's that slick with the puck. Eeessh...
Yeah Sutherby has a decent shot. Unfortunately he needs 24 hours notice to get the thing off in time.
I love that people are bashing Gordon, arguably one of the few bright spots on the team this season. NOBODY expected him to come in and unseat Sutherby as the 3rd line center. Talk about a bunch of haters who love misery.
__________________
George McPhee....The Teflon GM. 15 years of failure and counting....
6 - Number of playoff series the Capitals have won since George McPhee took over as General Manager in 1997 (which makes him the third-longest-tenured GM in the League), three of which came in McPhee's first season on the job.
He's smallish center that wins 50% face offs. Nothing to note here.
He's decent positionally and an average/slightly above average skater. Easily found around the league.
4 goals in 114 games and its a wonder how he got those. He has terrible offensive instincts and one of the weakest shots I've seen in an NHL player.
He doesnt hit, stand up for himself, stand up for teammates or drive the net.
He HAS gotten better this year, but still he's a fringe player that would not be a 3rd line center on any team that is contending around the league.
I wouldnt mind him playing on the 4th line given his improvement, but if he is getting 22 min ice time then we wont be winning many games.
You're right....he's not a goon....so that automatically knocks him down a few notches on your hockey scales.
I think you're way off on Gordon's mobility. There isn't a PK'er on the Caps who has his mobility. He's heads and tails above the rest. He's not blazing fast but he stops and starts and changes direction better than anyone else we have.
I love how you like to use his rookie season, when the kid clearly wasn't ready to play and saw very little ice time, to knock him on his career goal totals.
Let's compare reality which is this season. He's outplayed Sutherby and has been our BEST faceoff guy. Beyond Zubrus, Gordon takes almost all of the critical faceoffs and that says something to me about his importance to this team no matter how you try to minimize the kid.
You must really be enamoured with Sutherby's stickhandling that makes it looks like he's trying to stir a vat of tar. Yeah...he's that slick with the puck. Eeessh...
Yeah Sutherby has a decent shot. Unfortunately he needs 24 hours notice to get the thing off in time.
I love that people are bashing Gordon, arguably one of the few bright spots on the team this season. NOBODY expected him to come in and unseat Sutherby as the 3rd line center. Talk about a bunch of haters who love misery.
Not people ----- person
And I agree with you, he's played much better than Sutherby ..... and I really like Sutherby (I just wish the light blub would go on in that empty (but oh so pretty) head of his).
I don't think people are really trying to bash Gordon, well maybe some are, but most I would say are simply pointing out that he isn't doing that much better than Sutherby. And for the most part Sutherby's "struggles" have been really exagerated due to his point total.
I don't see any regression in Sutherby's game. In fact I think he is playing just as well this season as he was last season. The only difference is that this season he hasn't put up many points (I think he is on pace for about 14 less points).
That being said I don't think anyone can say Gordon hasn't done a very good job as well. But neither of these guys are ever going to put up good point totals in the NHL. Both should be judged on all the other things they bring to the table.
I personally am very happy to keep both (as well as Laich) on this Caps team for a very long time. Because having 3 capable checking line centers who can all also play well on the wing is very valuable (unless I am wrong and depth is a bad thing).
The Cap do need to find a way to get some more offense out of those checking lines. However I think that problem will be fixed when the Caps fix the lack of talent on the top 2 lines. Because I think playing guys like Pettinger, Clark, and Laich where they belong on a checking line role will do wonders for bottom 6 scoring. Because those 3 on checking line roles should be able to score close to 35-40 goals between them (Clark's production will drop when not playing with Ovechkin).
I would love to see the Caps bottom 6 next season look like...
Pettinger - Gordon/Sutherby - Clark
Laich - Gordon/Sutherby - Brashear
But in order to see that this team needs to address the lack of top 6 talent so we don't need to play Clark, Pettinger and Laich in top 6 roles.
I think Zednik may be dealt, though I'm not 100 percent convinced he'll still be a pending UFA by the deadline. There's the off chance he re-ups and never gets shopped.
I think the Caps like all three of Zubrus, Sutherby and Gordon, and all as centers. I don't think they are going to shop any of them, unless they can't sign Zubrus. I think their preference is to reach an accord with him before the deadline.
My guess as to the trade list is Zednik (probably), and that's it.
I think Zednik may be dealt, though I'm not 100 percent convinced he'll still be a pending UFA by the deadline. There's the off chance he re-ups and never gets shopped.
I think the Caps like all three of Zubrus, Sutherby and Gordon, and all as centers. I don't think they are going to shop any of them, unless they can't sign Zubrus. I think their preference is to reach an accord with him before the deadline.
My guess as to the trade list is Zednik (probably), and that's it.
More than likely that is the case, although I think planning to play with Zubrus as a center for the future is a mistake.
I don't think people are really trying to bash Gordon, well maybe some are, but most I would say are simply pointing out that he isn't doing that much better than Sutherby. And for the most part Sutherby's "struggles" have been really exagerated due to his point total.
I don't see any regression in Sutherby's game. In fact I think he is playing just as well this season as he was last season. The only difference is that this season he hasn't put up many points (I think he is on pace for about 14 less points).
That being said I don't think anyone can say Gordon hasn't done a very good job as well. But neither of these guys are ever going to put up good point totals in the NHL. Both should be judged on all the other things they bring to the table.
I personally am very happy to keep both (as well as Laich) on this Caps team for a very long time. Because having 3 capable checking line centers who can all also play well on the wing is very valuable (unless I am wrong and depth is a bad thing).
The Cap do need to find a way to get some more offense out of those checking lines. However I think that problem will be fixed when the Caps fix the lack of talent on the top 2 lines. Because I think playing guys like Pettinger, Clark, and Laich where they belong on a checking line role will do wonders for bottom 6 scoring. Because those 3 on checking line roles should be able to score close to 35-40 goals between them (Clark's production will drop when not playing with Ovechkin).
I would love to see the Caps bottom 6 next season look like...
Pettinger - Gordon/Sutherby - Clark
Laich - Gordon/Sutherby - Brashear
But in order to see that this team needs to address the lack of top 6 talent so we don't need to play Clark, Pettinger and Laich in top 6 roles.
Right.
Which is why we need to ADD top 6 forwards to this team, not SUBTRACT them at the trade deadline.
And certainly not for ANOTHER mid level prospect and 2nd round draft choice!!! Good god man!!
Which is why we need to ADD top 6 forwards to this team, not SUBTRACT them at the trade deadline.
And certainly not for ANOTHER mid level prospect and 2nd round draft choice!!! Good god man!!
Zubrus is not a very good top 6 forward, i don't know how many times he has to prove that with another average, inconsistant season.
He is a solid 2nd line RWer, nothing more. As long as he is paid as one i have no problem keeping him. However signing him to a long term contract paying him more than what he is worth is only going to hurt this team in the long run.
People need to stop being so short sighted on this.
Yes losing Zubrus would hurt next year and maybe even the year after. But I would much rather suffer the next couple season's than sign a bad contract that will hurt this team 3 or 4 years from now. Because last time I checked with or without Zubrus this team isn't winning anything within the next two years. However a couple years from now this team has the potential to be pretty good and signing a bad long term big money contract will hurt this franchise then.
I said it so many times now but I will say it again. If this team sign Zuby to a 4 or 5 year deal worth anything over 3 million per everyone on this board and the org will regret it within the next couple years.
If you want an example, see Morrison of the Canucks. That team is stuck paying 3.2 per to a average 2nd line center because a couple years ago they were afraid of what would happen to their big top line if they let him go because he played so well with their star Naslund.
They have been trying to get rid of Morrison for the last 1 and a half because that contract holding them back from improving their club.
Zubrus is almost an identical situation. And average 2nd line center who is going to get paid more than he should because he plays with the star. And I don't want to see the Caps held back by a bad contract in a couple years when they have the chance to be really good.
I think you'll find most on here feel the same way.
When did that happen? I seem to remember a Zubrus love fest taking place over the last year (going back to the of last season).
I hope its true, its about time most start to realize this guy is nothing more than a solid 2nd line RW. And not the heart and soul top line center I thought most people though he was at the beginning of this season.
And average 2nd line center who is going to get paid more than he should because he plays with the star. And I don't want to see the Caps held back by a bad contract in a couple years when they have the chance to be really good.
If Tarik's reporting is true, Zubrus and the Caps have already reached a consensus on the amount per year. The sticking point (again, according to Tarik) is term.
Any deal over three years is too much, imo. By that point, Backstrom will be coming off of his entry-level deal and they'd hopefully have the top 6 depth so that Zubrus would either be playing a lesser role (and could expect a smaller deal) or he'd be a guy that you don't mind parting ways with.
When did that happen? I seem to remember a Zubrus love fest taking place over the last year (going back to the of last season).
I hope its true, its about time most start to realize this guy is nothing more than a solid 2nd line RW. And not the heart and soul top line center I thought most people though he was at the beginning of this season.
It's been even more crystal clear over the course of the past two months. If you read the GDTs, Zubrus is scolded far more than he is praised.
Salaries (and age) of players with stats comparable to Zubrus this year:
Mats Sundin (36) $7.6 million
Andy McDonald (29) $3.3 million
Andrew Brunette (33) $800,000
David Legwand (26, so no UFA yet) $1.65 million
Kristian Huselius (28) $1.4 million
Alex Tanguay (27, and I think he signed his contract after coming off a big year) $5 million
Daymond Langkow (30) $2.442 million
David Vyborny (32) $2.2 million
Brian Rolston (33) $2.432 million
Of that group I think McDonald is probably the best comparator. They are similar in age and production this year, and I think McDonald's contract is recent.
If Tarik's reporting is true, Zubrus and the Caps have already reached a consensus on the amount per year. The sticking point (again, according to Tarik) is term.
Any deal over three years is too much, imo. By that point, Backstrom will be coming off of his entry-level deal and they'd hopefully have the top 6 depth so that Zubrus would either be playing a lesser role (and could expect a smaller deal) or he'd be a guy that you don't mind parting ways with.
I have no problem signing him to a longer deal than 3 years, as long as it is for the correct amount. Going back to my example, Morrison's deal was only for 3 years but it was the amount per that they regret.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididitlangway
It's been even more crystal clear over the course of the past two months. If you read the GDTs, Zubrus is scolded far more than he is praised.
Because he does more to earn a scolding than he does to earn praise. Hell half the times he is invisable.
Salaries (and age) of players with stats comparable to Zubrus this year:
Mats Sundin (36) $7.6 million
Andy McDonald (29) $3.3 million
Andrew Brunette (33) $800,000
David Legwand (26, so no UFA yet) $1.65 million
Kristian Huselius (28) $1.4 million
Alex Tanguay (27, and I think he signed his contract after coming off a big year) $5 million
Daymond Langkow (30) $2.442 million
David Vyborny (32) $2.2 million
Brian Rolston (33) $2.432 million
Of that group I think McDonald is probably the best comparator. They are similar in age and production this year, and I think McDonald's contract is recent.
The fact anyone would ever bring Alex Tanguay and Mats Sundin into a discussion that is comparing players to Zuburs is a joke. Those two are far better players than Zubrus.
Andy Mcdonald is also a better player than Zubrus, he just came off a year where he scored 34 goals and 50 + assists and may do it again this year. And he is a natural center, and a good one at that. His faceoff % is far better than Zubrus's. 55% to 49%
And no one else on that list makes more than 2.442.
The fact anyone would ever bring Alex Tanguay and Mats Sundin into a discussion that is comparing players to Zuburs is a joke. Those two are far better players than Zubrus.
Not this year, they aren't.
Last edited by PSUhockey34: 02-13-2007 at 06:51 PM.
Reason: flaming
Yes they are, so Zubrus's hot start means he may have simular point totals to the two. No one who has ever watched Tanguay or Sundin play could ever possibly say that Zubrus is in the same class as them
Sundin is a franchise center
Tanguay is a excellent top line winger
Zubrus is a solid 2nd line winger
Last edited by PSUhockey34: 02-13-2007 at 06:51 PM.
Reason: response to a flame
The fact anyone would ever bring Alex Tanguay and Mats Sundin into a discussion that is comparing players to Zuburs is a joke. Those two are far better players than Zubrus.
Andy Mcdonald is also a better player than Zubrus, he just came off a year where he scored 34 goals and 50 + assists and may do it again this year. And he is a natural center, and a good one at that. His faceoff % is far better than Zubrus's. 55% to 49%
And no one else on that list makes more than 2.442.
Zubrus is garnering a point per game basically. Colour it any way you want, but he is the Caps 3rd leading scorer, and is one of their leaders. I know you can't stand his game, but to dismiss what he's done is simply wrong.
End result is we won't get his production on the open market without paying a lot for it. He's a known quantity vs an unknown. Any smart person takes the known quantity every time, don't they?
Zubrus is garnering a point per game basically. Colour it any way you want, but he is the Caps 3rd leading scorer, and is one of their leaders. I know you can't stand his game, but to dismiss what he's done is simply wrong.
End result is we won't get his production on the open market without paying a lot for it. He's a known quantity vs an unknown. Any smart person takes the known quantity every time, don't they?
Yes he is a known quantity, and what we know is that he doesn't show up every night. He is far to inconsistant for a top line forward.
"To dismiss what he has done is simply wrong"
What has he done exactly? When you play with a player like Ovechkin you are always going to get assists, and since the first 12 games of the year he has only 10 goals.
I guess if you never watch this guy play you could look at his point total and think he is doing pretty well. But I assume you watch him every game like I do and I can't imagine how anyone can say he does anything above average most nights.
He is an average player, thats it. And he should be paid like it.
