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Old
02-14-2007, 08:57 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
Matty...

Gordon has 3 NHL goals in some 120 games...

Last year alone Sutherby had 14. This year they have the same amount of goals while Gordon has gotten much more quality ice time.

Gordon has zero offense. Sutherby has a hard shot and drives the net so the tools are there.

Gordon does/has neither of these things.
This seems to me rather like arguing over which Stooge... Shemp or Curly... is the smarter of the 2.

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02-14-2007, 09:51 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
This seems to me rather like arguing over which Stooge... Shemp or Curly... is the smarter of the 2.
So true. Its easy to get derailed and get off topic on such little disputes as this.

They both are subpar 3rd/4th line centers as of now.

I wouldnt be sad to see either traded but something tells me that we would regret letting go of Sutherby.

We pretty much have to keep Zubrus tho...sorry Zubby bashers. He's a key piece that if we lose I highly doubt will be replaced by a better player.

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02-14-2007, 12:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
So true. Its easy to get derailed and get off topic on such little disputes as this.

They both are subpar 3rd/4th line centers as of now.

I wouldnt be sad to see either traded but something tells me that we would regret letting go of Sutherby.

We pretty much have to keep Zubrus tho...sorry Zubby bashers. He's a key piece that if we lose I highly doubt will be replaced by a better player.
I keep seeing the debates on Zubie centre (excuse the pun) around his offenceive ability.
IMO...his value is more in his defenceive play. He's one of the very few true 2-way players that we have in the forward ranks.
Common sense would dictate that you've gotta get serious defenceive ability of some sort in any type of prospect you'd get in return of any deal you involve yourself in, or be very sure something akin will be available with the pick you gain.

Unfortunately, our mentality in the type of player we want seems to be a mind set based on whatever fickle philosopy we're following at the time. Remember when it was all about offenceive defenseman? Then it became all about speed. Then it moved to defense centered around their size.

Most successful GM's try to take the best available player, then work deals around missing pieces that they need.

Us?

I think we've fallen into the fireman mode. Instead of being proactive with a plan, we're forced to put out fires here & there as they occur due to our lack of planning & foresight.

That being said...we'll probably move Zubie for another Beech type player.

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02-14-2007, 02:30 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Zubrus is not a very good top 6 forward, i don't know how many times he has to prove that with another average, inconsistant season.

He is a solid 2nd line RWer, nothing more. As long as he is paid as one i have no problem keeping him. However signing him to a long term contract paying him more than what he is worth is only going to hurt this team in the long run.

People need to stop being so short sighted on this.

Yes losing Zubrus would hurt next year and maybe even the year after. But I would much rather suffer the next couple season's than sign a bad contract that will hurt this team 3 or 4 years from now. Because last time I checked with or without Zubrus this team isn't winning anything within the next two years. However a couple years from now this team has the potential to be pretty good and signing a bad long term big money contract will hurt this franchise then.

I said it so many times now but I will say it again. If this team sign Zuby to a 4 or 5 year deal worth anything over 3 million per everyone on this board and the org will regret it within the next couple years.

If you want an example, see Morrison of the Canucks. That team is stuck paying 3.2 per to a average 2nd line center because a couple years ago they were afraid of what would happen to their big top line if they let him go because he played so well with their star Naslund.

They have been trying to get rid of Morrison for the last 1 and a half because that contract holding them back from improving their club.

Zubrus is almost an identical situation. And average 2nd line center who is going to get paid more than he should because he plays with the star. And I don't want to see the Caps held back by a bad contract in a couple years when they have the chance to be really good.

How can we stand to "suffer" more for another 2 seasons? Everyone on this board wants/claims "PLAYOFFS OR BUST!!!!" NEXT season. Letting Zubrus go makes that much harder to do.

If we suffer for another 2 seasons, then we will have wasted Ovechkin's first 4 seasons! That's ridiculous!

Look at Pittsburgh? They are contending in Crosby's second year! Now, I can understand waiting til Ovy's 3rd year (or godforbid-- 4th), but 5th?? That's simply going to kill any momentum Ovechkin brings, and may grease his way out of here once his contract is up.

No way. We simply HAVE to build for 2008-2012, and having Zubrus does that. I mean please, the salary cap is going up a LOT next year (rumoured from 44m to 50m??), so to say that year 3 and 4 of Zubrus making whatever he makes will hamstring us is silly. Any extra 1-2m (assuming he's not getting better then as well, which is an unfair assumption) in years 3 and 4 is minimal.

Again, we have to ADD to our top 6, not subtract from it. This team has to be competitive ASAP (next year). If we let Zubrus go, why in god's name are we holding onto Kolzig?

Please answer me that with something other than "who else is there?". There are lots of goalies we can get for a fraction of Kolzig's cost, and if we are prepared to "suffer" for another few years, why is he here?

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02-14-2007, 02:31 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Tinordi24 View Post
We pretty much have to keep Zubrus tho...sorry Zubby bashers. He's a key piece that if we lose I highly doubt will be replaced by a better player.

Bingo

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02-14-2007, 04:36 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
How can we stand to "suffer" more for another 2 seasons? Everyone on this board wants/claims "PLAYOFFS OR BUST!!!!" NEXT season. Letting Zubrus go makes that much harder to do.

If we suffer for another 2 seasons, then we will have wasted Ovechkin's first 4 seasons! That's ridiculous!

Look at Pittsburgh? They are contending in Crosby's second year! Now, I can understand waiting til Ovy's 3rd year (or godforbid-- 4th), but 5th?? That's simply going to kill any momentum Ovechkin brings, and may grease his way out of here once his contract is up.
That's not a fair comparison - Crosby was the 4th top 5 pick the Pens made - The have been picking in the top 5 since the 2002 draft - They have finished last in the Atlantic since the 01-02 season

2001-02 82 28 41 8 5 69 5th, Atlantic
2002-03 82 27 44 6 5 65 5th, Atlantic
2003-04 82 23 47 8 4 58 5th, Atlantic
2004-05
2005-06 82 22 46 -- 14 58 5th, Atlantic

And if you will notice despite adding Sid last year they scored the same # of points as the year before the lock out - Despite hitting the free agent market hard - Sid has come so much later in the rebuild it is a meaningless comparison between the 2 teams.

And also note the Pens are on their way to going from 58 Points to the playoffs in 1 year

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02-14-2007, 05:28 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
How can we stand to "suffer" more for another 2 seasons? Everyone on this board wants/claims "PLAYOFFS OR BUST!!!!" NEXT season. Letting Zubrus go makes that much harder to do.

If we suffer for another 2 seasons, then we will have wasted Ovechkin's first 4 seasons! That's ridiculous!

Look at Pittsburgh? They are contending in Crosby's second year! Now, I can understand waiting til Ovy's 3rd year (or godforbid-- 4th), but 5th?? That's simply going to kill any momentum Ovechkin brings, and may grease his way out of here once his contract is up.

No way. We simply HAVE to build for 2008-2012, and having Zubrus does that. I mean please, the salary cap is going up a LOT next year (rumoured from 44m to 50m??), so to say that year 3 and 4 of Zubrus making whatever he makes will hamstring us is silly. Any extra 1-2m (assuming he's not getting better then as well, which is an unfair assumption) in years 3 and 4 is minimal.

Again, we have to ADD to our top 6, not subtract from it. This team has to be competitive ASAP (next year). If we let Zubrus go, why in god's name are we holding onto Kolzig?

Please answer me that with something other than "who else is there?". There are lots of goalies we can get for a fraction of Kolzig's cost, and if we are prepared to "suffer" for another few years, why is he here?
Hate to break the news to you, but this team isn't going to be competitive next season with or without Zubrus. Sure they may stay in the playoff race longer than they did this season, but besides some homer Caps fans not to many people are going to pick this team to finish in the top 8 in the east next season.

And what does the salary cap have to do with the Caps? Last time I checked the salary cap was mid 40's this year, what are we spending? The salary cap could be 100 million and it wouldn't make and difference. The Caps are not spending big money not because the salary cap doesn't let them, but because they don't have it/want to.

And once again you need to stop being so short sighted. When did I ever say that the Zubrus contract will hold us back in the next 2 years? I am pretty sure I said that signing him to a big contract will be something the org and fans really regret it 3 or 4 years from now.

If you don't believe me, lets just see what they sign him for. If its more than 3 million per season for 4 years or longer than in 3 years we can see if I am right or not.

Because in 3 years Ovechkin will be getting big money, Semin will be getting big money, Morrisonn will get a big raise, Pothier will be at the end of contract and have to be replaced/resigned. Backstrom and Fehr may be ready for a new contract, guys like Sutherby, Pettinger, Eminger, Green and all the other young guys one this team will be making more than they currently do (double in many cases).

Then 3 years from now when the Caps are really good and are in a position where adding one big time forward or top pair defensman in free agency can put them over the top in terms of making a major run at a cup. That 3.5 or whatever you gave to average old Danius Zubrus years back because is going to be the reason why the Caps have to settle for an average player instead of a true difference maker.

I don't care what the Salary Cap is, the days of the Caps spending 45-50 million dollars in payroll is prob over for a while.

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02-14-2007, 05:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Hate to break the news to you, but this team isn't going to be competitive next season with or without Zubrus. Sure they may stay in the playoff race longer than they did this season, but besides some homer Caps fans not to many people are going to pick this team to finish in the top 8 in the east next season.

And what does the salary cap have to do with the Caps? Last time I checked the salary cap was mid 40's this year, what are we spending? The salary cap could be 100 million and it wouldn't make and difference. The Caps are not spending big money not because the salary cap doesn't let them, but because they don't have it/want to.

And once again you need to stop being so short sighted. When did I ever say that the Zubrus contract will hold us back in the next 2 years? I am pretty sure I said that signing him to a big contract will be something the org and fans really regret it 3 or 4 years from now.

If you don't believe me, lets just see what they sign him for. If its more than 3 million per season for 4 years or longer than in 3 years we can see if I am right or not.

Because in 3 years Ovechkin will be getting big money, Semin will be getting big money, Morrisonn will get a big raise, Pothier will be at the end of contract and have to be replaced/resigned. Backstrom and Fehr may be ready for a new contract, guys like Sutherby, Pettinger, Eminger, Green and all the other young guys one this team will be making more than they currently do (double in many cases).

Then 3 years from now when the Caps are really good and are in a position where adding one big time forward or top pair defensman in free agency can put them over the top in terms of making a major run at a cup. That 3.5 or whatever you gave to average old Danius Zubrus years back because is going to be the reason why the Caps have to settle for an average player instead of a true difference maker.

I don't care what the Salary Cap is, the days of the Caps spending 45-50 million dollars in payroll is prob over for a while.
Basically to sum this all up. It is never a good idea to overpay any player more than his value.

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02-14-2007, 05:37 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Hate to break the news to you, but this team isn't going to be competitive next season with or without Zubrus. Sure they may stay in the playoff race longer than they did this season, but besides some homer Caps fans not to many people are going to pick this team to finish in the top 8 in the east next season.
Oh, I disagree with that. I certainly wouldn't guarantee a playoff spot next year, but I would put their chances at 50-50. A lot depends on who they get in the offseason (if anyone) and how healthy Kolzig is, but even assuming that the only significant addition is Backstrom, I think they will be right there up to the end, and nothing in the 5-8 seed range would surprise me.

Looking at the East, there are a lot of teams that I expect to either be worse next year, or to tread water at best. Very few teams have the potential to be significantly better, but the Caps are one of them.

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02-14-2007, 05:43 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BTCG View Post
I keep seeing the debates on Zubie centre (excuse the pun) around his offenceive ability.
IMO...his value is more in his defenceive play.
Why do some people talk about Zubrus like he is going to win the selke? Sure he is one of the better 2-way players on the team, no one will argue that. But that is about as big a compliment as saying he is the smartest kid special ed.

Way to go Zubie, you are a better 2-way center than Beech and Klepis who don't know where the defensive zone is. And you are a better 2-way center than Sutherby and Gordon because they play hockey as if their is no goal most of the time.

I am not saying Zubrus sucks, he is solid in the defensive zone. But some people talk about this guy like he is gods gift to defensive play. This guy has and will never be considered for a selke, and although he is solid in the defensive zone he is far from great.

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02-14-2007, 05:51 PM
  #111
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Oh, I disagree with that. I certainly wouldn't guarantee a playoff spot next year, but I would put their chances at 50-50. A lot depends on who they get in the offseason (if anyone) and how healthy Kolzig is, but even assuming that the only significant addition is Backstrom, I think they will be right there up to the end, and nothing in the 5-8 seed range would surprise me.

Looking at the East, there are a lot of teams that I expect to either be worse next year, or to tread water at best. Very few teams have the potential to be significantly better, but the Caps are one of them.
They will certainly be better, but how much better. They are on pace to finish about 17 points out of a playoff spot and about 7 points better than their point total from last season.

That is a pretty big improvment especially your pretty much counting on rookies (Backstrom and Fehr) and a young defensman (Jurcina) to "put you over the top".

The Caps will be better, but by how much? Either way the main point is that unless something amazing happens even if this team can get into the playoffs next season the chances of this team being a serious threat for a stanley cup within the next 2 years is very slim.

Some people still don't want to believe that and only time will tell. But this team is still very much in the middle of its rebuild.

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02-14-2007, 05:56 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Either way the main point is that unless something amazing happens even if this team can get into the playoffs next season the chances of this team being a serious threat for a stanley cup within the next 2 years is very slim.

Some people still don't want to believe that and only time will tell. But this team is still very much in the middle of its rebuild.
Now that I do agree with. The Caps will not be seriously competitive next year no matter where they finish in the standings. I expect the team to be much better by 08-09, but can they really count on a 39 year old Kolzig to carry them to the top? Probably not, IMO.

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02-14-2007, 05:59 PM
  #113
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Why do some people talk about Zubrus like he is going to win the selke? Sure he is one of the better 2-way players on the team, no one will argue that. But that is about as big a compliment as saying he is the smartest kid special ed.

Way to go Zubie, you are a better 2-way center than Beech and Klepis who don't know where the defensive zone is. And you are a better 2-way center than Sutherby and Gordon because they play hockey as if their is no goal most of the time.

I am not saying Zubrus sucks, he is solid in the defensive zone. But some people talk about this guy like he is gods gift to defensive play. This guy has and will never be considered for a selke, and although he is solid in the defensive zone he is far from great.
who ever said he was a selke contender? all people are saying pretty much is that he isn't a defensive liability which is far from saying he's a selke caliber forward...everything else you said is spot on and I agree with it

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02-14-2007, 06:09 PM
  #114
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who ever said he was a selke contender? all people are saying pretty much is that he isn't a defensive liability which is far from saying he's a selke caliber forward...everything else you said is spot on and I agree with it
No one has said he is a selke caliber player, but many have said or implyed that he is some great defensive forward and that is just not the case.

For example when someone says...

"I keep seeing the debates on Zubie centre (excuse the pun) around his offenceive ability. IMO...his value is more in his defenceive play"

To me that is implying that he an excellent defensive player who is on the team mainly for his ability to play in his own end. And I don't think that is the case at all. I used the selke comment to drive home that point.

And it worked as it clearly got your attention.

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02-14-2007, 06:11 PM
  #115
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who ever said he was a selke contender? all people are saying pretty much is that he isn't a defensive liability which is far from saying he's a selke caliber forward...everything else you said is spot on and I agree with it
and there is a major differene between someone simply saying he isn't a defensive liablity and somone saying his "his value is more in his defensive play".

Not trying to signal you out BTCG, you are far from the only one who has said/implyed this. Just useing you as an example because you were the latest.

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02-14-2007, 06:17 PM
  #116
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Rid-Si, none of Ovechkin's years are "wasted." The kid is a joy to watch play hockey and he loves the game more than anything is well-compensated to do so. The Cup is a much-yearned-for destination but the hard times of the journey are what it's really all about. The team is improving slowly and steadily...if the re-build begins to go off-track I'll be the first one to say so...but not until.

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02-14-2007, 06:45 PM
  #117
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Remeber, the Pens had young Mario Lemieux for five seasons before they even made the playoffs. Does anyone here really trust the McPhee can get value in a trade for Zubrus? If we had a real GM I would say trade him. Poile would have traded him one up for a steady D man long ago. We are all going to get old watching the Keystone Caps I'm afraid.
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02-14-2007, 06:47 PM
  #118
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Remember, the Pens had young Mario Lemieux for five seasons before they even made the playoffs... Does anyone here really trust the McPhee can get value in a trade for Zubrus? If we had a real GM I would say trade him. Poile would have traded him one up for a steady D man long ago. We are all going to get old watching the Keystone Caps I'm afraid.
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02-14-2007, 07:09 PM
  #119
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Remember, the Pens had young Mario Lemieux for five seasons before they even made the playoffs... Does anyone here really trust the McPhee can get value in a trade for Zubrus? If we had a real GM I would say trade him. Poile would have traded him one up for a steady D man long ago. We are all going to get old watching the Keystone Caps I'm afraid.
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Zubrus had little trade value up until last season. Before that he was the poster child for inconsistant players who don't live up to their potential. The only reason why he would have any decent trade value now is because he has decent point totals and a contract many teams can easily afford.

The Zubrus situation is all about money. The value in moving Zubrus instead of signing him is about not getting involved in a bad contract that you will regret down the road. Not what you would get back for him.

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02-14-2007, 08:09 PM
  #120
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Hate to break the news to you, but this team isn't going to be competitive next season with or without Zubrus. Sure they may stay in the playoff race longer than they did this season, but besides some homer Caps fans not to many people are going to pick this team to finish in the top 8 in the east next season.

And what does the salary cap have to do with the Caps? Last time I checked the salary cap was mid 40's this year, what are we spending? The salary cap could be 100 million and it wouldn't make and difference. The Caps are not spending big money not because the salary cap doesn't let them, but because they don't have it/want to.

And once again you need to stop being so short sighted. When did I ever say that the Zubrus contract will hold us back in the next 2 years? I am pretty sure I said that signing him to a big contract will be something the org and fans really regret it 3 or 4 years from now.

If you don't believe me, lets just see what they sign him for. If its more than 3 million per season for 4 years or longer than in 3 years we can see if I am right or not.

Because in 3 years Ovechkin will be getting big money, Semin will be getting big money, Morrisonn will get a big raise, Pothier will be at the end of contract and have to be replaced/resigned. Backstrom and Fehr may be ready for a new contract, guys like Sutherby, Pettinger, Eminger, Green and all the other young guys one this team will be making more than they currently do (double in many cases).

Then 3 years from now when the Caps are really good and are in a position where adding one big time forward or top pair defensman in free agency can put them over the top in terms of making a major run at a cup. That 3.5 or whatever you gave to average old Danius Zubrus years back because is going to be the reason why the Caps have to settle for an average player instead of a true difference maker.

I don't care what the Salary Cap is, the days of the Caps spending 45-50 million dollars in payroll is prob over for a while.
Fine, if that's your stance, so be it. We obviously aren't going to be changing each others opinion (and furthermore, I'm not advocating paying anyone far more than they are worth...however, I simply value what Zubrus brings more than you do, OK?).

However, why are we holding on to Kolzig then? You have yet to discuss that dichotomy in your thought process. If we are not going to be a serious playoff contender for at least another year...then what gives with holding onto what has been considered (outside of his injury) one of our more marketable comodities?

If we aren't serious about being good sooner than later, resigning Kolzig was stupid.

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02-14-2007, 08:23 PM
  #121
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Sundin WAS a franchise center
Tanguay COULD BE an excellent top line winger (if he had more than 72 shots!!!)

FIXED


Seriously....catch some Calgary games....the guy has been a disappointment.

Japs how come you always hate on our centers (this season Zuby, last was Halpern)? Who will you shift your targets too next season?

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02-14-2007, 09:39 PM
  #122
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Fine, if that's your stance, so be it. We obviously aren't going to be changing each others opinion (and furthermore, I'm not advocating paying anyone far more than they are worth...however, I simply value what Zubrus brings more than you do, OK?).

However, why are we holding on to Kolzig then? You have yet to discuss that dichotomy in your thought process. If we are not going to be a serious playoff contender for at least another year...then what gives with holding onto what has been considered (outside of his injury) one of our more marketable comodities?

If we aren't serious about being good sooner than later, resigning Kolzig was stupid.
Because Kolzig is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH harder to replace than Zubrus. Kolzig is a good starting goaltender. He may not be great anymore, but he is still good. And as bad as this team is trust me you don't want to see how bad this team would be without a good goaltender. Not to mention Olie means a hell of a lot more to this org and its fans than Zubrus. Last time I checking I have never heard anyone say Zuby should get him number put in the rafters when he retires. Kolzig is a lock.


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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
FIXED


Seriously....catch some Calgary games....the guy has been a disappointment.

Japs how come you always hate on our centers (this season Zuby, last was Halpern)? Who will you shift your targets too next season?
Because our centers are not that good.

I am really happy you brought this up. Last season I was against signing Halpern because I thought he was way overvalues by Caps fans, he was going to ask for more than he was worth, and he would be replaceable and not missed.

Sorry to say it but I think I was right on all acounts. I never said he wasn't a quality player. I just didn't think he was needed and wasn't worth what he wanted.

This is the same situation as Zubrus. He is a player who is overrated by Caps fans, is prob asking for more than he is worth (or so that early season thread got me to think) and I think he can be easily replaced.

I honestly feel that you can put any average 2nd line forward or good checking line forward (Chris Clark) and they will put up decent/good numbers playing with Ovechkin.

I simply felt that Halpern was replaceable and not worth paying the money he was going to want, and I have no doubt I was right. And I think the same thing about Zubrus.

But really, we should wait to see what he gets before we argue this anymore. Because if he gets what I think he should (2.45 - 2.85) I will be happy as hell we kept him.

And as for your Sundin and Tanguay comment.

Tanguay has been a disappointment this season. But he is still playing better than Zubrus is. And even in a "down" year is still going to produce more than Zubrus has in his best year.

And Sundin is not the player he once was, no play are age 36 is the same as they were around 27. But he is still going to put up 30+ goals this season and 40+ assists like he always has and is still one of the most consistent players in the NHL. And he has always produced no matter who his linemates are, he actually makes his linemates better. You can't say any of that about Zubrus.

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02-14-2007, 10:02 PM
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Just for the record, let me make known exactly what I think Zuburs should get paid...

2.65-2.85 per for 4 years : Wouldn't hesitate. I think that is good value and I would love to see him back for that contract.

2.9-3.25 : Would do 3 years

3.3-3.5 : Wouldn't like it, but would prob do 2 years at that price. A 3rd year would suck but I think their is a 50/50 shot I would cave based on what I was getting offered for Zubrus. Yes this is when I really start to consider my trade options.

Over 3.5 : TRADE, just not worth it. Don't think he is that valuable to the team and IMO have little doubt he could be replaced for prob less than that within the next year or two (before the Caps get really good).

That is what I am thinking in terms of Zubrus and his contract.

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02-14-2007, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Just for the record, let me make known exactly what I think Zuburs should get paid...

2.65-2.85 per for 4 years : Wouldn't hesitate. I think that is good value and I would love to see him back for that contract.

2.9-3.25 : Would do 3 years

3.3-3.5 : Wouldn't like it, but would prob do 2 years at that price. A 3rd year would suck but I think their is a 50/50 shot I would cave based on what I was getting offered for Zubrus. Yes this is when I really start to consider my trade options.

Over 3.5 : TRADE, just not worth it. Don't think he is that valuable to the team and IMO have little doubt he could be replaced for prob less than that within the next year or two (before the Caps get really good).

That is what I am thinking in terms of Zubrus and his contract.
Interesting, I didn't expect you to be so realistic about his contract. I pretty much agree with your numers.

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02-14-2007, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Devil Dancer View Post
Interesting, I didn't expect you to be so realistic about his contract. I pretty much agree with your numers.
I had a feeling people were thinking I justed wanted no part of Zubrus, that was never the case. The only reason why I got so heated about Zubrus and started bashing him was that thread in the beginning of the year where people started talking about 4-5 million per of a 4 or 5 year period for this guy.

He is a solid all around player who gets along with our star. And because of that I would like to keep him, i just don't think he is in any way irreplaceable. And although it would hurt a bit to lose him, just like Halpern, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

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