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Old
02-13-2007, 10:17 PM
  #26
Epic
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Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
Take Hatcher out of the deal, and it's Chorney, Torres and a 1st. That isn't even close to enough to land Pitkanen.
Ummm,

Torres has two 40 Point seasons in the books and is headed for a third. Pitkanen also has one 30, one 40 and is headed for another 40 point season. Torres is 25 years old and Pitkanen is 23.

Points wise, Torres and Pitkanen are virtually equal. However Pitkanen is more valuable since he's a top pairing puck moving defensemen. So that's why your also getting Taylor Chorney a 7.0 C Grade Prospect who had a terrific WJC tourney for team USA. Also, the Flyers have already shown interest in him. Then we are giving up a 1st round draft pick and taking Hatchers insane contract off your hands freeing up 3.5 million worth of cap space you can spend on the Free Agent market next year for Hatcher and Nodl. Nodl who the Oilers hope could one day replace the loss of Torres.

That to me sounds liek a fair deal, again Smith could be in the mix as well in some way either as an addition or replacement for some piece of the puzzle.

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02-13-2007, 10:53 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Epic View Post
Ummm,

Torres has two 40 Point seasons in the books and is headed for a third. Pitkanen also has one 30, one 40 and is headed for another 40 point season. Torres is 25 years old and Pitkanen is 23.
Defenseman, meet forward.

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Points wise, Torres and Pitkanen are virtually equal.
No.

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However Pitkanen is more valuable since he's a top pairing puck moving defensemen.
Damn straight.

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So that's why your also getting Taylor Chorney a 7.0 C Grade Prospect who had a terrific WJC tourney for team USA. Also, the Flyers have already shown interest in him. Then we are giving up a 1st round draft pick
Gonna take more than that.

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and taking Hatchers insane contract off your hands freeing up 3.5 million worth of cap space you can spend on the Free Agent market next year for Hatcher and Nodl. Nodl who the Oilers hope could one day replace the loss of Torres.
********.

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That to me sounds liek a fair deal, again Smith could be in the mix as well in some way either as an addition or replacement for some piece of the puzzle.
Philly doesn't want Smith. Smith actually has a lot of value, but not to a team like Philly.

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Old
02-13-2007, 11:12 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
Defenseman, meet forward.



No.



Damn straight.



Gonna take more than that.



********.



Philly doesn't want Smith. Smith actually has a lot of value, but not to a team like Philly.
If you could back up your three word statements with some soild hockey sense or facts then that might go along way in proving your point. Until then i can say without a doubt you don't know what your talking about and I ain't going to argue with you.

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Old
02-13-2007, 11:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
That's stupid. Hatcher is having a horrible season, but he does not have negative trade value (to the tune of a top Oiler prospect).
I dunno. The thing with Philly is that they'll have no trouble filling his $3.5 million on the UFA market, and probably with a player better than Hatcher. Of course, the other thing with Philly is that they can just send him to the minors and I believe his salary won't count against the cap (though I think that's dependent on his age, or length of contract. Clarification anyone? I don't feel like wading through the CBA.pdf). Anyway, for them trading Hatcher for nothing is still a net gain of a $3.5 million UFA.

However, for Edmonton, Hatcher's $3.5 million would take up an even greater percentage of our payroll/UFA bidding power, and because of our self-imposed cap, we don't have the option of sending him into the minors. His money is coming out of *our* cap no matter what. So depending on his play - and we have to give him some credit for his contribution to the worst team in the league - he could be a huge anchor to us.

I would say that for Edmonton, Hatcher is probably a negative acquisition.

For Philadelphia, as long as they have the option of burying him in the minors to free up the cap space, he probably maintains a positive or neutral trade value.

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Old
02-13-2007, 11:38 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JonQuixote View Post
I dunno. The thing with Philly is that they'll have no trouble filling his $3.5 million on the UFA market, and probably with a player better than Hatcher. Of course, the other thing with Philly is that they can just send him to the minors and I believe his salary won't count against the cap (though I think that's dependent on his age, or length of contract. Clarification anyone? I don't feel like wading through the CBA.pdf). Anyway, for them trading Hatcher for nothing is still a net gain of a $3.5 million UFA.

However, for Edmonton, Hatcher's $3.5 million would take up an even greater percentage of our payroll/UFA bidding power, and because of our self-imposed cap, we don't have the option of sending him into the minors. His money is coming out of *our* cap no matter what. So depending on his play - and we have to give him some credit for his contribution to the worst team in the league - he could be a huge anchor to us.

I would say that for Edmonton, Hatcher is probably a negative acquisition.

For Philadelphia, as long as they have the option of burying him in the minors to free up the cap space, he probably maintains a positive or neutral trade value.
Agreed and I'm making statements based off the fact that they have to pay his cap hit based off his age. I'm sure that if he was as much a liability as fans would have us believe he is, he would have been sent to the minors already. Which means either they can't do that or he's not as bad as everyone thinks.

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Old
02-13-2007, 11:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Epic View Post
Agreed and I'm making statements based off the fact that they have to pay his cap hit based off his age. I'm sure that if he was as much a liability as fans would have us believe he is, he would have been sent to the minors already. Which means either they can't do that or he's not as bad as everyone thinks.
Wrong.

http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columni...zie/?ID=178796

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According to the new CBA, any player over 35 that signs a multi-year contract will count against the cap in each year of his contract no matter whether he plays or not. The over-35 player could retire. Doesn't matter, he still counts against the cap. The over-35 player could play in the minors. Doesn't matter, he still counts against the cap. The over-35 player could be abducted by aliens and taken to Uranus…well, you get the idea.
Hatcher is 34, he signed his deal before he turned 35, thus he can be sent to the minors and his contract will go off of the books.

Seriously, Hatcher sucks, but he doesn't have NEGATIVE trade value. If your proposal is so fair, why don't you share it with neutral HF posters on the Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Forum.

Prepare to be disappointed.


Last edited by imkinger: 02-14-2007 at 12:02 AM.
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Old
02-14-2007, 03:16 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
Seriously, Hatcher sucks, but he doesn't have NEGATIVE trade value.
I'm going to put this to you as simple as can possibly be. Would you pay 3.5 mil next season for Hatcher? I PRAY TO WHOEVER that your answer is no. His worth is probably in the range of 1.5 mil give or take. So if a guy is OVERPAID, in a CAP SYSTEM he'll have NEGATIVE VALUE. I'm not saying that it's not possible they could get something for him, but what everyone's trying to tell you is that Holmgren would veiw that as another piece of the deal that HELPS his team.

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Old
02-14-2007, 03:30 AM
  #33
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I've actually watched Hatcher play a few times in the last month and he's not nearly as bad as some are saying here. He's a very effective penalty killer, he's fairly solid positionally and he still throws a few big hits every now and then. People will point at his +/- and laugh but he's +6 in his last 10 games on a very poor Philly team.

Maybe I'm flying solo here but I would take Hatcher in a second if it meant we could potentially land Pitkanen in a deal (perhaps the Flyers are eager to move Hatcher's salary off the books so they can take a run at a guy like Timonen). I've never been a big fan of Hatcher but he's not as bad as some here are saying. How much longer is he signed at $3.5 million? If it's only one more season, I'd definitely have no problem with a deal centering around Hatcher and Pitkanen. Heck, I would say Hatcher and Smith are roughly equal in terms of what they provide out on the ice so perhaps we would look at moving Smith at the deadline or in the off-season...

Pitkanen-Greene
Staios-Smid
Bergeron-Hatcher

That could be an effective set of defencemen if Smid and Greene step it up.

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Old
02-14-2007, 03:38 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
I'm going to put this to you as simple as can possibly be. Would you pay 3.5 mil next season for Hatcher? I PRAY TO WHOEVER that your answer is no. His worth is probably in the range of 1.5 mil give or take. So if a guy is OVERPAID, in a CAP SYSTEM he'll have NEGATIVE VALUE. I'm not saying that it's not possible they could get something for him, but what everyone's trying to tell you is that Holmgren would veiw that as another piece of the deal that HELPS his team.
LA seems to be high on this strategy. They got Roenick in that sort of deal, and were able to get Jack Johnson for a song because they took Tverdosky in the deal as well.

I'm not gonna be singing songs if Hatcher is an Oiler, but I won't be signing petitions to keep him out either. In a deal where he's coming without Pitkanen, it would really handcuff Lowe going forward, and I really don't see why Lowe would want Hatcher or his salary.

Wishful thinking, but in the event that its Hatcher and Pitkanen, then the pill is alot easier to swallow, as Lowe would basically be adding a top 2, and a top 4 d-man for like 5 mil. And for those of you who dont think Hatcher is top 4 material.... he's pretty damn close on this team.

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02-14-2007, 03:39 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
I've actually watched Hatcher play a few times in the last month and he's not nearly as bad as some are saying here. He's a very effective penalty killer, he's fairly solid positionally and he still throws a few big hits every now and then. People will point at his +/- and laugh but he's +6 in his last 10 games on a very poor Philly team.

Maybe I'm flying solo here but I would take Hatcher in a second if it meant we could potentially land Pitkanen in a deal (perhaps the Flyers are eager to move Hatcher's salary off the books so they can take a run at a guy like Timonen). I've never been a big fan of Hatcher but he's not as bad as some here are saying. How much longer is he signed at $3.5 million? If it's only one more season, I'd definitely have no problem with a deal centering around Hatcher and Pitkanen. Heck, I would say Hatcher and Smith are roughly equal in terms of what they provide out on the ice so perhaps we would look at moving Smith at the deadline or in the off-season...

Pitkanen-Greene
Staios-Smid
Bergeron-Hatcher

That could be an effective set of defencemen if Smid and Greene step it up.

He's got 2 yrs left.

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Old
02-14-2007, 03:53 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
If Hatcher is the main piece of an Edmonton Philly deal, I'll be so mad... I can't even think about it.
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Originally Posted by JonQuixote View Post
I would say that for Edmonton, Hatcher is probably a negative acquisition.

I would still boo him if he came here.

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Old
02-14-2007, 03:55 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post

Pitkanen-Greene
Staios-Smid
Bergeron-Hatcher

That could be an effective set of defencemen if Smid and Greene step it up.
I know Im in the minority, but going forward, I'd base our D corps around Smid, Greene and Staios. I love Smith, but if we could get a good return for him, we take it. Same goes for Bergeron. I'd like to have Hejda back as well.

If we looked at something like Pitkanen and Hatcher for Bergeron, Torres/Lupul and some draft picks; we could likely still have cap room to sign another top 4 guy in July, a Brewer for example, or hopefully someone more profficient on the PP.

Pitkanen-Staios
Brewer-Greene
Smid-Hatcher
Hejda/Gilbert

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Old
02-14-2007, 04:00 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Mowzie View Post
I know Im in the minority, but going forward, I'd base our D corps around Smid, Greene and Staios. I love Smith, but if we could get a good return for him, we take it. Same goes for Bergeron. I'd like to have Hejda back as well.

If we looked at something like Pitkanen and Hatcher for Bergeron, Torres/Lupul and some draft picks; we could likely still have cap room to sign another top 4 guy in July, a Brewer for example, or hopefully someone more profficient on the PP.

Pitkanen-Staios
Brewer-Greene
Smid-Hatcher
Hejda/Gilbert
I don't think we'd have the money available to bring in Brewer if we had Hatcher on board but I tend to agree with your assessment. To me, Hatcher and Smith are relatively equal in terms of ability - both can be decent 2nd pairing defencemen who are monsters on the PK. If we could move Smith in a deal and bring on Hatcher to replace him along with Pitkanen, I'd be damn happy. I'll never be a Hatcher fan but the guy is definitely not as bad as some people are making him out to be.

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02-14-2007, 04:01 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
I'm going to put this to you as simple as can possibly be. Would you pay 3.5 mil next season for Hatcher? I PRAY TO WHOEVER that your answer is no. His worth is probably in the range of 1.5 mil give or take. So if a guy is OVERPAID, in a CAP SYSTEM he'll have NEGATIVE VALUE. I'm not saying that it's not possible they could get something for him, but what everyone's trying to tell you is that Holmgren would veiw that as another piece of the deal that HELPS his team.
Way to contradict yourself in the span of two sentences. If you can get something for a player (rather than have to give something with him for another team to take him) he doesn't have negative value. An example of negative value would be Malakhov, NJ gave up a first round pick to deal him to SJ. An argument can be made, due to his salary, that Hatcher has NO VALUE, but to say he has negative value is just plain stupid.

Positive value = Get something.
Negative value = Give something.

The post I objected to was asserting that the inclusion of Hatcher as part of a deal to land Pitkanen would mean the Oilers wouldn't have to give up as much; thus Pitkanen, Hatcher and a decent prospect could be had for a roster player, a decent prospect and a first.

Basically his argument was:

Pitkanen = Torres + 1st (Not anywhere near enough)
Hatcher = Offsets the above in favour of the Oilers
Nodl = Chorney

So yea, ********.


Last edited by imkinger: 02-14-2007 at 04:17 AM.
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Old
02-14-2007, 04:12 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
I don't think we'd have the money available to bring in Brewer if we had Hatcher on board but I tend to agree with your assessment. To me, Hatcher and Smith are relatively equal in terms of ability - both can be decent 2nd pairing defencemen who are monsters on the PK. If we could move Smith in a deal and bring on Hatcher to replace him along with Pitkanen, I'd be damn happy. I'll never be a Hatcher fan but the guy is definitely not as bad as some people are making him out to be.
Well another avenue to take, keeping my last thread in mind, is instead of signing Brewer, packaging Smith and another asset or 2 at the deadline for a Dman who still doesn't demand alot of money. Whether that's Kalinin, or one of the kids in ATL or Nashville. We'd probably go through 2 or 3 years of growing pains though.

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Old
02-14-2007, 04:27 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MoneyPlayer101 View Post
To EDM:

LW Geoff Sanderson (1.5 M)
D Derian Hatcher (3.5 M)

To PHI:

LW Raffi Torres (925 T) RFA
D Daniel Tjarqvist (1.625 M) UFA
Conditional Draft Pick
After last nights games--I have moved more into the seller catagory

the hatcher contract is horrible and he can not play in the new NHL

Sanderson proved that he can play in the NW division when he was in Vancouver

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Old
02-14-2007, 07:40 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by imkinger View Post
That's stupid. Hatcher is having a horrible season, but he does not have negative trade value (to the tune of a top Oiler prospect).
Given the issue of a salary gap his contract does result in a significant
negative trade value.

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Old
02-14-2007, 08:14 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Given the issue of a salary gap his contract does result in a significant
negative trade value.
if it was significant negative value, then philly would just keep him, its not that he sucks, its that he doesn't fit with what the Oilers need. Hatcher is slow as molasses, but he is still a really good PKER, yes he is overpaid, but its not like he is making 10 times too much, If Hatcher were making 2 million per year, then people wouldn't think it was that bad of a deal. Philly isnt short on cap space, there not gonna trade pitkanen just to get rid of hatcher.

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02-14-2007, 09:37 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Given the issue of a salary gap his contract does result in a significant
negative trade value.
The fact that he can be sent to the minors and not affect their cap means that he does not have a negative trade value.

They can hide his cap hit, so they don't have to trade him, especially to downgrade their return on a player like Pitkannen.

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