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TSN: ANA-EDM close to deal

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Old
12-10-2003, 11:12 AM
  #251
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Mike Comrie and Enforcer Georges Laraque for Andy MacDonald, OHL leading scorer Corey Perry and a 2004 1st round draft choice.

That's the deal me thinks.

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12-10-2003, 11:19 AM
  #252
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http://www.***********.com/article.p...31209122907377

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12-10-2003, 11:21 AM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnergizerScotty
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=34540

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12-10-2003, 11:22 AM
  #254
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I already posted it.

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12-10-2003, 11:26 AM
  #255
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The source for that was some guy who's brother heard it on the radio.

How is that definitive all of a sudden?

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12-10-2003, 11:30 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbt
If that's the expectation, it's entirely wrong. There is no such guarantee that any future deals will be struck, and especially no guarantee that a reasonable salary will be agreed to. Otherwise Paul Kariya would not have been making $10 million a year the last few years.
I think most of us still don't understand how Paul Kariya got $10 million a year. Anyway, I think that with a young player, especially ones that don't even have arbitration rights, it's *not* unreasonable to expect that the guy is going to want to agree to a contract and get on the ice so that he can build his career and earn big money later on. Comrie could have negotiated a contract comparable to guys like Havlat or Legwand or York, and already have $600k in the bank for this season, then move on to the part of his career where the CBA starts to work in his favor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbt
But this argument seems to be that because we gave you a stupid contract at first, we can reasonably expect that you'll agree to a paycut later. Which is, of course, not the way reality works. If a player agrees to a small entry-level contract, he can't reasonably expect to be re-signed in 3 years if he underperforms.
I bet Comrie's already agreed to a paycut. I'd be almost certain that the contract that he and Winter worked out with the Ducks won't pay him anything close to what he's made the past couple of seasons.

The extra money in the first contract can't be considered pay. It got filed under the heading of performance bonuses, but in reality they bought his impending UFA status. And if he had impending UFA status to leverage at every contract negotiation, then maybe he could get that much money each time out. Knowing full well that he didn't, and that he hit the jackpot, he should have banked the money and counted himself lucky.

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12-10-2003, 11:36 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbt
As a RFA, the Oilers have a great amount of power over him ... the ONE thing he has in his favor right now is that he can refuse to sign with certain teams; as a free agent, that's a right that he has. Considering the Oilers hold almost all the cards, I see no problem with him hanging on to his ace in the hole. Why don't you argue that the Oilers have to just, "suck it up," and trade him to one of his acceptable destinations? It's the same thing, just in reverse.

If a killer deal does come along and Lowe wants to make the trade, maybe Comrie should hold it up and say he wants Lowe to pay him out of his own pocket before he'll agree to the trade. Would that be ethically acceptable to those of you siding with Lowe now?
Tell him to go right ahead and do that Lowe will have him sitting for the next 8(or possibly 6 post CBA) years of his life. Lowe's a stubborn guy he will force Comrie to his way or no one will benefit and most Oiler fans will and can accept forcing Comrie to sit for a prolonged period of time if we can't get what we want out of the deal. Lowe wants the best possible return if what he is doing is illegal the NHLPA or the league will step in Comrie deserves no graceful charity from us he has not earned it. Ethical acceptability holds no moral swing over me get as much as you possibly can for him is all I ask for from Lowe.

Comrie will probably make $15-20 million over the next 6 years if he signs with the Ducks, -2.5million to Lowe is still a heck of a lot of money and is a far better alternative to sitting for the nxt 6 years and not earning a penny, Comrie is a smart guy he will make the right choice . From an Oiler perspective $2.5million+ Perry+ 1st for Comrie sounds mighty nice. Whether you think it is morally suspect or not I support Lowe.

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12-10-2003, 11:39 AM
  #258
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I'm sure the thought is very viscerally satisfying to Oiler fans but it just serves to illustrate how badly the whole thing has been handled.

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12-10-2003, 11:40 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
From an Oiler perspective $2.5million+ Perry+ 1st for Comrie sounds mighty nice. Whether you think it is morally suspect or not I support Lowe.
Don't count on the money. The league doesn't allow transfers of cash any more. On thing for sure, that return is a long drop off from a first line center or a top pair defenseman. Ouch.

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12-10-2003, 11:44 AM
  #260
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mmbt puts up a great arguement, and I think several of his points have been overlooked by some others. More specifically, the fact that A) Lowe agreed to the contract, he didn't have to agree, as OGE would like us to believe, and B) Comrie was considered a future superstar by Oiler fans last year, but now he's nothing all of a sudden. I got in many arguements last season with Oiler fans, saying I felt Comrie was overpayed and overrated. In fact, OGE, I remember you in particular 'calling me out', and vehemently defending Comrie.

As for the poster who suggested that the current trade would be better, no I don't. The Preds 1st likely wouldn't be it either, but even if it was, a 6th (or was it the 7th) pick, especially in a draft as talented as the '03 one was, is more valuable than a Perry & a late 1st. Top end talent is much harder to find in this league than 2nd line talent, and Oiler fans I'm sure know that by now.

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12-10-2003, 11:45 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
Montreal? Nope. They have their fill of small players, especially at center.

Buffalo? Nope. Another team that has its fill of small pivots. See Chris Drury.

Atlanta? Nope. They have Marc Savard. No need for another small pivot.

The market down east is non-existant. Hence Comrie being shopped out west.
quoted-"maybe they filled there quota on that style of player already."

and last I heard Atlanta was still interested we were just asking for to much but apparently they would glady accept another small center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
Don't count on the money. The league doesn't allow transfers of cash any more. On thing for sure, that return is a long drop off from a first line center or a top pair defenseman. Ouch
Last I heard the expectations were still a top 6 forward or a top 3 d-man when Lowe publically comes out and says we don't see you as anything more than a 2nd line center(in refrence to Comrie), it would obviously be over ambitous to expect a 1st line center without adding another piece on the Oiler side of the equation.


Last edited by FacelessButcher: 12-10-2003 at 11:53 AM.
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12-10-2003, 11:46 AM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
mmbt puts up a great arguement, and I think several of his points have been overlooked by some others.
Yeah, that happens to mmbt.

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12-10-2003, 11:47 AM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
quoted-"maybe they filled there quota on that style of player already."

and last I heard Atlanta was still interested we were just asking to much but apparently they would glady accept another small center.
Last I heard, Waddel wasn't interested at all. There were apperantly some rumours a few days ago that the Thrashers and Oilers talked, but it wasn't about Comrie. It was about the Oilers aquiring one of the Thrashers defensemen.

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12-10-2003, 11:52 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Last I heard, Waddel wasn't interested at all. There were apperantly some rumours a few days ago that the Thrashers and Oilers talked, but it wasn't about Comrie. It was about the Oilers aquiring one of the Thrashers defensemen.
which one? Kloucek?

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12-10-2003, 11:56 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
mmbt puts up a great arguement, and I think several of his points have been overlooked by some others. More specifically, the fact that A) Lowe agreed to the contract, he didn't have to agree, as OGE would like us to believe, and B) Comrie was considered a future superstar by Oiler fans last year, but now he's nothing all of a sudden. I got in many arguements last season with Oiler fans, saying I felt Comrie was overpayed and overrated. In fact, OGE, I remember you in particular 'calling me out', and vehemently defending Comrie.
Of course Lowe didn't have to agree to the contract. He was under great pressure from the fans, media, and his bosses. If he had instead let Comrie go as a UFA, we'd have hearing about it for the past 3 years. In fact, HF members who were here at the time will recall that people were already roasting Lowe for losing Comrie as a UFA before it even happened.

If I called you out over Comrie, it's probably because 99% of everything you've ever posted about Comrie is inflammatory garbage that has no basis in fact. Comrie is *not* nothing, and while "future superstar" is pushing it, I don't think anybody with more than a couple of brain-cells to rub together doubts that he has a big future ahead of him. I don't recall specifically what I "called you out" for, but I'm sure it was deserved. One of the great tragedies of the board crash is that the "Mizral's Stupid Quotes" thread was lost forever.

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12-10-2003, 12:14 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
Don't count on the money. The league doesn't allow transfers of cash any more. On thing for sure, that return is a long drop off from a first line center or a top pair defenseman. Ouch.
Sure is a long way from Zanzullin too, thank god. :p

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12-10-2003, 12:14 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
Lowe has mismanaged the situation almost to Button proportions. Lowe should have made a move and got a player that could help the Oilers out while he had the chance. .
1. When Lowe manages to get Zanullin? for Comrie then he has mismanaged to a Buttonesque proportion. Perry and a 1st is a hell of alot better than that.

2. Lowe did get a player to help the Oilers. He used Comrie's money to sign Oates.

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12-10-2003, 12:18 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbt
True enough, but no one would care if they asked the Ducks for the money. Demanding it from the player? That can't be construed as anything but childish spite. I hope for everyone's sake it's not true.
Interesting post, but I disagree. Comrie has acted in bad faith. Like oiler_guys_eddie, I think that the initial "stupid" contract was consideration for both Comrie's performance and the exclusive rights to negotiate with him as RFA.
The question is whether Lowe and the Oilers reasonably believed that Comrie would pull a stunt like this after giving into his outrageous demands as an unsigned but talented rookie. It is almost impossible to believe that they would have agreed to that "stupid" contract had they known that Comrie would act like this.
Your analogy with the underperforming player who doesn't get resigned is flawed for this reason: the excessive contract counts for both the player's performance and the exclusive right to negotiate a new contract. This right belongs to the team. As such it can be exercised or forfeited at their discretion, with no obligation to the player either way.
In this sordid affair, Comrie has essentially denied the Oilers a practical benefit that they had bargained and paid for -- namely, the value of the exclusive right to negotiate a contract as a RFA. To my mind, he is not entitled to keep the money if he frustrates the Oilers attempt to exercise this right that they paid dearly for, especially at Comrie's insistence.
I support Lowe totally.

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12-10-2003, 12:23 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
A) Lowe agreed to the contract, he didn't have to agree, as OGE would like us to believe, and B) Comrie was considered a future superstar by Oiler fans last year, but now he's nothing all of a sudden. .
A. Yep, I still think the deal worked out for Lowe. Lowe signed the contract and I'm sure if you asked him, he would do it again.

B. I still consider Comrie a future superstar. The Ducks win this trade hands down. Perry and a 1st is not fair value for Comrie. However I can't see a team paying more than that simply because of Comrie's attitude.

I still say the Ducks win this trade. Comrie is an excellent player and will be for years to come. Without a doubt Anaheim wins the trade, well at least till it comes time to resign Comrie after his first ANA contract.

Comrie the hockey player is awesome. Everything else about Comrie is pretty damn Sh**#$,

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12-10-2003, 12:28 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by elphy101
1. When Lowe manages to get Zanullin? for Comrie then he has mismanaged to a Buttonesque proportion. Perry and a 1st is a hell of alot better than that.
Exactly how good a deal would it be to move Comrie for Perry a first rounder? I know some people are all hot and bothered by the fact that Perry is leading the OHL in scoring, but is that a guarantee that he's going to be a player? Here are the scoring leaders from the past few years in the OHL.

1997-98... Peter Sarno (the top 10 rounded out with Adduono, Legwand, Spiridonov, Chaulk, Mailloux, Legault, Allen, Sim and Papineau)

1998-99... Peter Sarno (the top 10 rounded out with Milley, Keefe, Colagiacomo, Fisher, Tkaczuk, Druken, Colley, Papineau and Novoseltsev)

1999-00... Sheldon Keefe (the top 10 rounded out with Milley, Jaspers, Shvidki, Zigomanis, Cheechoo, Torres, Pyatt, Schill and Jeffereson)

2000-01... Kyle Wellwood (the top 10 rounded out with Spezza, Radivojevic, Rowe, Boyes, MacKenzie, Heffernan, Baird, Ott and Weiss)

2001-02... Nathan Robinson (the top 10 rounded out with Renzi, Spezza, Newbury, Pecker, Jamison, Bootland, Delisle, O'Sullivan and Ellis)

2002-03... Cory Locke (the top 10 rounded out with Foy, LaRose, Tenute, Wellwood, Johnson, Staal, Stajan, Newbury and Nolan)

As you can see there are no sure things because you win a scoring crown. For the most part its a kiss of death. I see this Perry kid and I see a lot of Ryan Ready in him. I don't know why, but I do.

The draft pick is a lottery ticket. Not sure I'd be happy about coughing up my first line center for a couple of futures.

Quote:

2. Lowe did get a player to help the Oilers. He used Comrie's money to sign Oates.
Adam Oates? Isn't that the hot mushy crap that your mother used to make you chow down before you headed down to the local shinny rink to slap the puck around? Oh, no sorry, I have Adam Oates confused with Quaker Oates.

Adam Oates is that over the hill bag of hockey pucks the Oilers signed recently, right? The same guy that couldn't get into game shape? The same guy who has been an offensive dynamo for the Oil, having been in on one goal in five games, generating a whopping two shots, and being a minus two for his efforts? That Adam Oates? Is that a good thing?

:p

BTW... Perry was drafted 28th and Zainullin was drafted 34th. Massive difference there (6 whole picks). Is that first round pick (likely a 20-30 pick) will be worth the tumble down the standings that the Oilers are going to take and the lift that Comrie should provide in Anaheim?

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12-10-2003, 12:31 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave
The question is whether Lowe and the Oilers reasonably believed that Comrie would pull a stunt like this after giving into his outrageous demands as an unsigned but talented rookie. It is almost impossible to believe that they would have agreed to that "stupid" contract had they known that Comrie would act like this.
If they didn't consider this, then they are the biggest fools on the planet. A guy holds a gun to your head once and you honestly don't believe that he'll do it a second time? Holy smokes, that's just plain stupid.

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12-10-2003, 12:37 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
A) Lowe agreed to the contract, he didn't have to agree, as OGE would like us to believe, and B) Comrie was considered a future superstar by Oiler fans last year, but now he's nothing all of a sudden.
A) But Lowe was probably singlehandedly responsible for Comrie reaching his bonuses, by playing him when he did. Comrie threw it all back in his face.

B) I've never heard Oiler fans call Comrie nothing now. I still think he's one of the best young talents in the game. But there's a difference between wanting a good player and wanting a good player who treated your team the way he did.

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12-10-2003, 12:39 PM
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
Ethical acceptability holds no moral swing over me get as much as you possibly can for him is all I ask for from Lowe.
I agree totally. Everyone is trying to apply some sort of morality to Lowes dealings right now. Forget that, it you want to start applying morality to NHL contract situations, then you have a lot of work in front of you.
Fact is, Lowe's doing nothing he's not allowed to do (pending the outcome of this new Comrie-pays-us-2.5mil situation). All I'm concerned about is that Lowe gets the highest possible return for the trade. So far he's operating well within the rules.

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12-10-2003, 12:39 PM
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
BTW... Perry was drafted 28th and Zainullin was drafted 34th. Massive difference there (6 whole picks). Is that first round pick (likely a 20-30 pick) will be worth the tumble down the standings that the Oilers are going to take and the lift that Comrie should provide in Anaheim?
Actually, the Ducks traded two second rounders (36th and 54th pick) for Perry at 28. So yes, there is a difference between 28 and 34. If the Ducks had picked at 34, they wouldn't have Perry to offer the Oilers.

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12-10-2003, 12:46 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave
Interesting post, but I disagree. Comrie has acted in bad faith. Like oiler_guys_eddie, I think that the initial "stupid" contract was consideration for both Comrie's performance and the exclusive rights to negotiate with him as RFA.
The question is whether Lowe and the Oilers reasonably believed that Comrie would pull a stunt like this after giving into his outrageous demands as an unsigned but talented rookie. It is almost impossible to believe that they would have agreed to that "stupid" contract had they known that Comrie would act like this.
Act like this? You make it sound like he's pulling a Yashin. Maybe he has an inflated opinion of his own worth, but that alone doesn't give carte blanche to Lowe or the Oilers to extort money from him.

Quote:
Your analogy with the underperforming player who doesn't get resigned is flawed for this reason: the excessive contract counts for both the player's performance and the exclusive right to negotiate a new contract. This right belongs to the team. As such it can be exercised or forfeited at their discretion, with no obligation to the player either way.
In this sordid affair, Comrie has essentially denied the Oilers a practical benefit that they had bargained and paid for -- namely, the value of the exclusive right to negotiate a contract as a RFA.
There is no exclusive right to negotiate. As a RFA, he can negotiate with whoever he chooses, the only right the Oilers have is the right to match any offer he gets elsewhere. He's under absolutely no obligation to even TRY to negotiate with Edmonton if he so chooses.

Edmonton is under no obligation to trade him either, of course. But he doesn't actually have to sit for 8 years, as much as some of the more bitter Oilers fans might wish it were so ... at some point, even if he's not traded, he could sign an offer sheet and force the Oilers' hand. Or he could wait it out ... the new CBA is unlikely to make him a UFA, but it might make signing RFAs more palatable than at present.

As for the excessive contract somehow granting Edmonton some kind of special rights to negotiate with him, the contract was only excessive because of performance bonuses both parties agreed to. If he hadn't reached the bonuses, the contract would have been a bargain, and then how would you justify things? Basically, you seem to be saying because he played well and thus earned more money, he's somehow more obligated to the Oilers than if he'd been mediocre and hadn't gotten big money. Comrie's play is what made the contract excessive, not his negotiating tactics.

Quote:
To my mind, he is not entitled to keep the money if he frustrates the Oilers attempt to exercise this right that they paid dearly for, especially at Comrie's insistence.
I support Lowe totally.
And if Lowe is intentionally dragging things out to make an example of Comrie, then perhaps the Oilers should not be entitled to keep the money they've saved (and cost him) by not signing or trading him sooner.

Bottom line, they MUTUALLY could not come to an agreement on a new contract. They BOTH agree it's better if he's traded. You can't just blame one side exclusively in this, they've made this mess together.

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