HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Prospects
Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

Chicken n' egg question (Kane-Gagner)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-17-2007, 01:32 PM
  #1
hawksfan50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,677
vCash: 500
Chicken n' egg question (Kane-Gagner)

I have raised it before--would they be as effective if they did not play oon the same line or were individually on a less overall talented team than London?

In other words is Kane "really" that good? Is Gagner really that good?"

Well-we did see Kane on Team USA at the WJHC-u-20 and he was very good...then Gagner was out of the London lineup last night due to that concussion he got i the previous game...What did Kane do last night (albeit Kostitsyn was still there and the rest of the London talent) = a 4 point night (2g+2a --his 2nd goal was the OT winer
in a 5-4 win over Windsor)!!

So--answer: KANE DOES NOT NEED GAGNER TO BE AN IMPACT SUPERSTAR TALENT.

The question now resolves to GAGNER --is he as goodd as his points suggest?
Probably not--though if you saw him play-make you cannot deny he is also a very good player...so I guess the answer on him would be--no he wouldn't have as many points without supertalents like Kane and Kostitsyn to finish his passes into scores
==BUT what I do not know is if without them he would compensate by being more selfish and shooting/scoring more goals by himself (that may be a reasonable assumption)...


So with Gagner it is hard to say whether he will continue to be be primarily a play-making centre or will transform himself into more of a "go to" goal scorer ...this may also play into whether he can project to a true #1 centre (if the playmaking translates to goal scoring by the wings on his line at the NHL level) --or whether his upside is as a mere #2 centre with more or equal parts goal scoring to assists...

I would have been very interesting to see how Gagner would play in London without Kane in the lineup (of course Kostitsyn is still there so he probably would be dishing off passes first before selfishly shooting himself) --but I guss we won't get a chance to ***** this reverse situation...

So--we know KANE is great even without Gagner--we don't know if the reverse is true.

hawksfan50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 02:13 PM
  #2
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 18,693
vCash: 500
I think Gagner makes the players around him better.

I don't think anybody needs to make Kane better, he's just flat out good on his own, no matter who he plays with.

Soooo... Gagner's stats certainly benefit from having good players around him, but he'd still be a good player and top-10 pick who makes those around him better, even if he was playing with lesser guys. He'll have a tougher time stepping up than Kane will, which to an extent we already saw in the WJC, since Kane already plays above the speed of the OHL, whereas IMHO Gagner still plays at an OHL speed.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 02:48 PM
  #3
CapsWolverinesUSA
Registered User
 
CapsWolverinesUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,134
vCash: 500
The USHL is a solid developmental league, but the USA NTDP plays some stiff competition as well. In the USHL last year, Gagner only had 46 points in 56 games. Kane posted 102 points in 58 games last year for the U-18s. And, if you want to screen out the NAHL games from the NTDP schedule since the NAHL is worse than the USHL, Cane posted 51 points in 35 games against US College teams and various U-18 teams from around the world. That's darn impressive.

What this tells us is that Kane had proven to be a dominant player prior to this year. Gagner hadn't. Then the two paired up, and Kane continued to dominate at a similar clip, and Gagner's production suddenly exploded. This year's WJC only highlighted this, IMO. Kane was awesome for Team USA. Gagner struggled to find himself on Team Canada and was sort of a non-factor.

CapsWolverinesUSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 03:05 PM
  #4
BruinsBtn
HFBoards Sponsor
 
BruinsBtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,351
vCash: 500
I dont think we KNOW that Kane is dominant alone. It would be more accurate to say that hes had some good games this year without Gagne.

On the other hand, this could hurt both of their stock if GMs arent sure who benefits the most from the pairing. And its not even fair to say that its a pairing. The entire team is incredible so they both benefit from that.

Put John Tavares on that team and he would have a 30 point lead on the league.

If I am a GM, id always lean to a great player on a mediocre or bad team. That way you KNOW hes good.

BruinsBtn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 03:16 PM
  #5
Section323
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieRuzica View Post
If I am a GM, id always lean to a great player on a mediocre or bad team. That way you KNOW hes good.
Interesting philosophy. I can see the merits of this but there would certainly be some players from time to time on good teams that would be/are safe picks. Kane I believe, is one of those exceptions. I do not have a crystal ball to predict the future, but I can see him developing into a Pat LaFontaine-type player in the NHL (hopefully without the concussions).

Section323 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 03:42 PM
  #6
RUSqueelin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
I have raised it before--would they be as effective if they did not play oon the same line or were individually on a less overall talented team than London?

In other words is Kane "really" that good? Is Gagner really that good?"

Well-we did see Kane on Team USA at the WJHC-u-20 and he was very good...then Gagner was out of the London lineup last night due to that concussion he got i the previous game...What did Kane do last night (albeit Kostitsyn was still there and the rest of the London talent) = a 4 point night (2g+2a --his 2nd goal was the OT winer
in a 5-4 win over Windsor)!!

So--answer: KANE DOES NOT NEED GAGNER TO BE AN IMPACT SUPERSTAR TALENT.
Kane is the real talent. He's got stuff you don't teach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post

The question now resolves to GAGNER --is he as goodd as his points suggest?
Probably not--though if you saw him play-make you cannot deny he is also a very good player...so I guess the answer on him would be--no he wouldn't have as many points without supertalents like Kane and Kostitsyn to finish his passes into scores
==BUT what I do not know is if without them he would compensate by being more selfish and shooting/scoring more goals by himself (that may be a reasonable assumption)...


So with Gagner it is hard to say whether he will continue to be be primarily a play-making centre or will transform himself into more of a "go to" goal scorer ...this may also play into whether he can project to a true #1 centre (if the playmaking translates to goal scoring by the wings on his line at the NHL level) --or whether his upside is as a mere #2 centre with more or equal parts goal scoring to assists...

I would have been very interesting to see how Gagner would play in London without Kane in the lineup (of course Kostitsyn is still there so he probably would be dishing off passes first before selfishly shooting himself) --but I guss we won't get a chance to ***** this reverse situation...
The last time Kane and Kostitsyn were out of the lineup. Gagner was in on all 4 of London's goals in a win. He can play without them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post

So--we know KANE is great even without Gagner--we don't know if the reverse is true.
Either can play without each other. The fact that they play on the same team should not be a negative.

Kane is also a year older then Gagner. Wait till Gagner play at next years WJC before making similar comparisons.

RUSqueelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 04:48 PM
  #7
jBuds
pretty damn valuable
 
jBuds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NYC Suburbs
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 26,428
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUSqueelin View Post

Either can play without each other. The fact that they play on the same team should not be a negative.
Agreed. They're both talented hockey players, no doubt. Personally, I think Kane is a tad better, but just because they're teammates doesn't automatically mean that they enhance the other's appeal.

jBuds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 06:08 PM
  #8
Form and Substance
Registered User
 
Form and Substance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
The USHL is a solid developmental league, but the USA NTDP plays some stiff competition as well. In the USHL last year, Gagner only had 46 points in 56 games. Kane posted 102 points in 58 games last year for the U-18s. And, if you want to screen out the NAHL games from the NTDP schedule since the NAHL is worse than the USHL, Cane posted 51 points in 35 games against US College teams and various U-18 teams from around the world. That's darn impressive.

What this tells us is that Kane had proven to be a dominant player prior to this year. Gagner hadn't. Then the two paired up, and Kane continued to dominate at a similar clip, and Gagner's production suddenly exploded. This year's WJC only highlighted this, IMO. Kane was awesome for Team USA. Gagner struggled to find himself on Team Canada and was sort of a non-factor.
Only? I can't think of another player besides Vanek that had such an impact in the USHL at such a young age. Besides, the USHL is a notoriously low-scoring league, the top ten is made up of players barely sustaining a ppg average. It's like comparing the RSL stats and NHL stats. It holds no water.

Form and Substance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 06:17 PM
  #9
Jim Schennson
Bros.
 
Jim Schennson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 1,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Section323 View Post
Interesting philosophy. I can see the merits of this but there would certainly be some players from time to time on good teams that would be/are safe picks. Kane I believe, is one of those exceptions. I do not have a crystal ball to predict the future, but I can see him developing into a Pat LaFontaine-type player in the NHL (hopefully without the concussions).
As a Flyers fan hoping that we draft Kane, I like that comparison of LaFontaine. I didn't get to see a lot of his career, and didn't really know how big he was, so I went to look it up, and he's listed at 5'10", 180. I assumed LaFontaine was bigger, but that should quiet the critics of Kane's size a bit. Also, I looked at LaFontaine's draft year, and check out who was drafted at #12:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1983e.html

Jim Schennson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 08:15 PM
  #10
PuckheadMcGillycuddy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 671
vCash: 500
Kane outperformed Kessel in their respective final seasons in the U.S. NTDP.

PuckheadMcGillycuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-17-2007, 09:09 PM
  #11
HabLover
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sandspit
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,463
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think Gagner makes the players around him better.

I don't think anybody needs to make Kane better, he's just flat out good on his own, no matter who he plays with.

Soooo... Gagner's stats certainly benefit from having good players around him, but he'd still be a good player and top-10 pick who makes those around him better, even if he was playing with lesser guys. He'll have a tougher time stepping up than Kane will, which to an extent we already saw in the WJC, since Kane already plays above the speed of the OHL, whereas IMHO Gagner still plays at an OHL speed.

Hard to compare the two, since Kane has had an extra year of Junior/NTDP play, as they are a year apart in age. Kane should rip it up again next year in the OHL, as should Gagner, who will another year after next to light it up even more!

HabLover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2007, 12:49 AM
  #12
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,628
vCash: 500
I'm not sold on Gagner at least not yet. He's not a dominant player 5 on 5. Take a look at a guy like Crosby. Out of the 90 points he has 44 are on the power play while still a whopping 46 are at even strength. He leads in PP points and I think only Lecavalier has more ES points (I could be off). Gagner on the other hand has far more power play points than ES. To me that hurts him. Hey there's nothing wrong with lighting it up on the powerplay but you have to prove you can score at least as good even strength. I dont see that with Gagner yet, Kane I do

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2007, 05:02 AM
  #13
Gwyddbwyll
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 10,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieRuzica View Post
If I am a GM, id always lean to a great player on a mediocre or bad team. That way you KNOW hes good.
The counter argument to that is you dont know if that player looks so great because he gets all the ice time and all the power play opportunities. Can he fit into a successful team strategy?

Gwyddbwyll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2007, 10:24 PM
  #14
onthejob
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HabLover View Post
Hard to compare the two, since Kane has had an extra year of Junior/NTDP play, as they are a year apart in age. Kane should rip it up again next year in the OHL, as should Gagner, who will another year after next to light it up even more!
I would take either of them. It is unbelievable how much these two want to win. They could be in on all 4 goals but if they're down 5-4 late in the game, they push for the the win. Many London fans have witnessed come-from-behind wins all year. Winning, not points, is what it is all about. Can they raise their level when it matters most!

onthejob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 09:52 PM
  #15
turnbuckle*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,724
vCash: 500
Gagner played well enough to crack Team Canada's roster as a 17-year-old without Kane at his side. He didn't play much, but he made the team.

That said - I think Gagner benefits more from playing with Kane than vice versa. Mind you Kane is nearly a year older, so it should be expected. Also; Kane is the best player in this draft class, so Gagner has a pretty lofty standard to match.

turnbuckle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2007, 10:53 PM
  #16
Cush
-inator
 
Cush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 9,500
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Gagner played well enough to crack Team Canada's roster as a 17-year-old without Kane at his side. He didn't play much, but he made the team.

That said - I think Gagner benefits more from playing with Kane than vice versa. Mind you Kane is nearly a year older, so it should be expected. Also; Kane is the best player in this draft class, so Gagner has a pretty lofty standard to match.
Who would Gagner compare to?

Cush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 04:40 AM
  #17
Karamazov
Registered User
 
Karamazov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
Only? I can't think of another player besides Vanek that had such an impact in the USHL at such a young age. Besides, the USHL is a notoriously low-scoring league, the top ten is made up of players barely sustaining a ppg average. It's like comparing the RSL stats and NHL stats. It holds no water.
Very well said - too many people think stats from every league are analogous. If his argument worked guys like Michalek would have fallen to the 5th round in his draft year...

Karamazov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 06:00 AM
  #18
turnbuckle*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,724
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cush View Post
Who would Gagner compare to?
Dave Gagner.

turnbuckle* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 07:24 AM
  #19
onthejob
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Dave Gagner.
not really; Sam passes more

onthejob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 09:18 AM
  #20
shortcat1
Registered User
 
shortcat1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Downtown Palau, ON
Country: Palau
Posts: 895
vCash: 500
I'm curious how much of an impact Kostitsyn has on their performance with the Knights...

I know that their impacts will be symbiotic but, would they be as prolific if SK wasn't there?

shortcat1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-21-2007, 10:58 AM
  #21
CapGoodie
Registered User
 
CapGoodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Scotland
Posts: 1,701
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onthejob View Post
not really; Sam passes more
Agreed, Sam looks more like a Ray Whitney type player than his father. Dave Gagner was a little more of put-your-head-down, north-south skating scorer.

Sam Gagner is more of head up, superb vision, playmaker etc. Dave Gagner had a little more bulldog to his game - would be nice to see Sam develop that a little more over time.

On topic....

Kane's better.

CapGoodie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2007, 09:14 PM
  #22
RUSqueelin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
To further debunk the myth:

London Knights 4, SSM 3

Pat Kane - not in line up

Sam Gagner first game back from injury - 2 goals, 2 assists. Game winner.

Gagner does need Kane to produce - and visa versa.

Gagner is a special talent.

RUSqueelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2007, 09:41 PM
  #23
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,550
vCash: 50
I'd like to think Kostitsyn has a role in making both of them look good...but i can't.

Watsatheo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2007, 10:42 PM
  #24
coolguy21415
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 9,285
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I'd like to think Kostitsyn has a role in making both of them look good...but i can't.
It's hard to tell who of those three is making the others look great and whatnot. I'm not going to argue that Kane is the most talented of the three, but I think Kostitsyn does help the other two look better, and vice versa.

That said, I'm not sold on Gagner just because of his WJC performance. He's got lots of time to prove me wrong though, and next season he'll likely be playing without both Kane and Kostitsyn so we'll see how he does on his own.

__________________
This content is hosted here with the objections of the poster.
coolguy21415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2007, 11:09 PM
  #25
RUSqueelin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
It's hard to tell who of those three is making the others look great and whatnot. I'm not going to argue that Kane is the most talented of the three, but I think Kostitsyn does help the other two look better, and vice versa.

That said, I'm not sold on Gagner just because of his WJC performance. He's got lots of time to prove me wrong though, and next season he'll likely be playing without both Kane and Kostitsyn so we'll see how he does on his own.
To take two names off the top of my head. I think Gagner had better WJ's then both Rick Nash and Joe Thornton. I don't know why people are so hung up on Gagner's WJ performance.

RUSqueelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.