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Is there room for improvement? (looking ahead to march)

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12-07-2003, 12:56 PM
  #1
BrindA17
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Is there room for improvement? (looking ahead to march)

The Flyers are playing extremely well right now, so I'm not about to say that we need to make a trade. But, isn't there always room for improvement?

The beasts of the NHL (Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey) are usually playing well down the stretch, yet they seem to make deals around the trade deadline to upgrade their roster. The players traded aren't necessarily struggling, so there isn't a need to trade them; rather they make the risky deal in hopes of pushing themselves a bit closer to the ultimate prize.

Colorado is definitely the dominant example. They've made such deals as Deadmarsh + for Rob Blake, Rolston + for Ray Bourque, and Drury + for Derek Morris. Drury is an excellent player, and the deal might be looked at as a bit of a risk, but they did it anyway. They weaken their forward crop to strengthen their defense, hoping the upgrade on D overshadows the downgrade on offense.

Detroit made big trades year after year to build their roster. Acquired talent includes Hasek and Chelios. They knew these players were aging, but they took the risk and it paid off.

And Finally, our rival, New Jersey. Last year's deal (which I honestly highly doubted would pay off) brought in Joe Nieuwendyk for Jason Arnott. They sent the younger, stanley-cup-winning-goal-scorer to Dallas for an aging veteran. Yet, come playoff time, New Jersey went the distance and claimed the Cup.

Considering how it has paid off for other clubs, I don't see why the Flyers shouldn't make a deal if they feel it will have a higher upside. An example, and just an example, would be Comrie for Handzus. Flyers fans may bulk at the idea of trading the defensively sound Handzus for Comrie, whose defense lacks to say the least. But, Comrie has a higher offensive upside. He might be small, but he's really fast and is pretty tough for his size. Also, Comrie could really click with speedy wingers such as Gagne, Williams, or Kapanen. And we wouldn't be totally lost without Michal; we still have Primeau patrolling the checking line. In fact, since Primeau and Handzus are both good checking line centers, this trade could work with either Handzus or Primeau (salary raises an issue though) being sent to Edmonton.

The Flyers did make a deal of a similar nature in 1999-2000 when they sent Brind'Amour to Carolina for Primeau. Brind'Amour had the edge defensively, but we wanted a bigger player with a better offensive upside. Primeau wasn't exactly a force, but he did score the memorable clutch goal in the marathon game. We also went further in the playoffs than we've been since 1997.

Anyway, it's an example, not necessarily a suggestion. I just think that the Flyers should not rule out making a trade that could shake up the lines or may seem a bit risky. It has paid off for other teams, and I don't see why we would be any different.

Just my two cents, blast away.


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12-07-2003, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindA17
The Flyers are playing extremely well right now, so I'm not about to say that we need to make a trade. But, isn't there always room for improvement?
well when things are going well the last thing you want to do is... rock the boat. however, i still think we need a playoff goalie. i just don't have faith in esche or hackett coming up with the big saves in the po.

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12-07-2003, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyercide
well when things are going well the last thing you want to do is... rock the boat.
That is just my point. Why make a deal if you don't need it? Ask the three teams who's names are all over the Stanley Cup. Making a trade doesn't necessarily destroy all chemistry. New chemistry can be built, and Hitchcock shifts the lines frequently anyway.

And about our goalies: the Flyers will probably stick to their guns that Hackett's the guy they signed, so they're going to go with him. If for some reason they get a chance to acquire Khabibulin for Hackett, they better do it.

Also: About Hackett, he has many friends on the Flyers roster. That could also keep the Flyers from trading him, even if there's a clear upgrade. It's crap like that which I cannot stand. They'll learn to like the new goalie, they're mature enough.


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12-07-2003, 01:23 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindA17
That is just my point. Why make a deal if you don't need it? Ask the three teams who's names are all over the Stanley Cup. Making a trade doesn't necessarily destroy all chemistry. New chemistry can be built, and Hitchcock shifts the lines frequently anyway.

And about our goalies: the Flyers will probably stick to their guns that Hackett's the guy they signed, so they're going to go with him. If for some reason they get a chance to acquire Khabibulin for Hackett, they better do it.
I am not so sure the Flyers are sold on Hackett hence all the starts Esche has seen. If theres any weakness on the Flyers right now it's still in goal. If injuries occur or some player like Stevens or Shanahan becomes available... than sure go ahead and make a trade. :p

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12-07-2003, 01:24 PM
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there is always room for improvement as far as I'm concerned.

the Flyers still haven't shown me that they can beat the Devils or Ottawa in the big games. until they get even or pass them two teams then you have to always look to get better.

I think the thing is you(the Flyers) don't exactly go looking to shake things up but if something were to fall in your lap or if there was a trade you were offered that could improve the team, then you do it.

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12-07-2003, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyerGuy69
if something were to fall in your lap or if there was a trade you were offered that could improve the team, then you do it.
That's what we always do, and what do we have to show for it?

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12-07-2003, 01:28 PM
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Also did you see the interview with Esche the other night? He said himself that just about any goaltender could play infront of the Flyers. There's lot of truth in that and was kinda shocking to here him say it so bluntly. During the playoffs every team plays there hearts out. A lot different than the regular season. Anyways, thats my feeling as it has been since before season started that we need a better goaltender.

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12-07-2003, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyercide
. Anyways, thats my feeling as it has been since before season started that we need a better goaltender.
if Esche and Hackett continue to play strong along with making the saves they are supposed to, then we should be good to go. right now, I do feel good about our goaltending, even better than last year because you never new what Cechmanek was going to show up.

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12-07-2003, 01:57 PM
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I would agree with a Handzus for Comrie trade but we don't know how well Comrie would do for us after sitting out so long. But it could be a risk that could get us a cup.

I have no problem with our goaltending either as long as our D keeps up we will be fine. Esche and Hackett so far have been pretty good clutch guys and if we go in the playoffs and one blows 1 game we will have another one with something to prove.

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12-07-2003, 02:17 PM
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Clarke already said he doesn't want a small center.

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12-07-2003, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easton122
I would agree with a Handzus for Comrie trade but we don't know how well Comrie would do for us after sitting out so long. But it could be a risk that could get us a cup.
Players taht hold out and miss training camp generally play poorly when they finally come back. We wouldn't be getting the real Mike Comrie until nest season.

IMO unless we suffer some serious injuries the only thing I could see us making a deal for woud be a big physical defenseman, that can also play the game. Problem is their are only about 3 of them on the planet and they don't get traded.

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12-07-2003, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
Clarke already said he doesn't want a small center.
Simply because he's an idiot. Size doesn't win cups.

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12-07-2003, 03:58 PM
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The Flyers front office has given zero indication that they are willing to unload salary, and that's the only way I could see them moving key players (e.g., Handzus) off their current roster. I'm not sure what they'll do if there's a salary cap (other than hope it's grandfathered in as a luxury tax or something), but I don't see them giving away this season.

I think that if they do anything, it won't be until spring, and it will be somebody they can get for a reasonable price, like a Scott Thornton from San Jose. He's come into his own the past couple of years in San Jose after he got out of the offensively oppressive Molson Centre. I like their talent level right now, but I thought they got pushed around a little bit last night in the corners. The only two regulars with size that are always tough in the corners are Primeau, Handzus, and Brashear. LeClair is when he makes up his mind to be, and the rest are workers, but in my opinion an economy pickup like Thornton is the the most likely situation.

They're not doing anything between the pipes. Those who haven't can relieve themselves of that uncertainty.

Brind,
The deals you mentioned in Denver were conducted in different times (e.g. Blake near the deadline, Drury in the pre-season) and under different financial circumstances. I know they're just examples, but we should just be aware of it.

Edit: Okay, so Primeau, Handzus, and Brashear make three, not two, Stan.


Last edited by stanley: 12-07-2003 at 04:03 PM.
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12-07-2003, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindA17
Simply because he's an idiot. Size doesn't win cups.
Comrie doesn't fill a need.

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12-07-2003, 08:54 PM
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It was reported in one of Edmonton's papers that the Flyers had a scout at the Edm/Pit game on saturday.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=34076

It's probably nothing 'cause we've heard a million "scouts were seen at the Oilers last game" reports and absolutely nothing has happened. Who really knows what's going on anymore? Anyway thought it pertained to this discussion, enjoy.

By the way a Comrie for Handzus deal would be a wonderful thing, though very unlikely.

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12-07-2003, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilboy
By the way a Comrie for Handzus deal would be a wonderful thing, though very unlikely.
For Edmonton not Philly.

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12-08-2003, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
For Edmonton not Philly.
Please explain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
Comrie doesn't fill a need.
I think I've covered that multiple times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanley
Brind,
The deals you mentioned in Denver were conducted in different times (e.g. Blake near the deadline, Drury in the pre-season) and under different financial circumstances. I know they're just examples, but we should just be aware of it.
Yeah, my bad. I did the same thing with Hasek; he was acquired during the offseason. I should have specified, but oh well.


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12-08-2003, 02:58 AM
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Defense wins cups. I would rather have Conroy than Comrie, and I would rather have Handzus than Conroy.

Making trades for the sake of just making a trade is stupid. Those trades you mentioned were all to address a need (and Arnott for Niewendyke was part of a six player deal). Trading one center for another or relatively equal value does nothing but destroy chemistry.

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12-08-2003, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
Making trades for the sake of just making a trade is stupid.
I never said that.
Quote:
Those trades you mentioned were all to address a need (and Arnott for Niewendyke was part of a six player deal).
All of them? Really? You might now claim them as needs because they needed a particular player to win the cup. But at the time, not all of those deals seemed crucial.
Quote:
Trading one center for another or relatively equal value does nothing but destroy chemistry.
Please provide an example of chemisty destruction.


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12-08-2003, 05:56 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindA17
The Flyers are playing extremely well right now, so I'm not about to say that we need to make a trade. But, isn't there always room for improvement?

The beasts of the NHL (Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey) are usually playing well down the stretch, yet they seem to make deals around the trade deadline to upgrade their roster. The players traded aren't necessarily struggling, so there isn't a need to trade them; rather they make the risky deal in hopes of pushing themselves a bit closer to the ultimate prize.

Colorado is definitely the dominant example. They've made such deals as Deadmarsh + for Rob Blake, Rolston + for Ray Bourque, and Drury + for Derek Morris. Drury is an excellent player, and the deal might be looked at as a bit of a risk, but they did it anyway. They weaken their forward crop to strengthen their defense, hoping the upgrade on D overshadows the downgrade on offense.

Detroit made big trades year after year to build their roster. Acquired talent includes Hasek and Chelios. They knew these players were aging, but they took the risk and it paid off.

And Finally, our rival, New Jersey. Last year's deal (which I honestly highly doubted would pay off) brought in Joe Nieuwendyk for Jason Arnott. They sent the younger, stanley-cup-winning-goal-scorer to Dallas for an aging veteran. Yet, come playoff time, New Jersey went the distance and claimed the Cup.
#1. Most of the trades you're mentioning were done in a different NHL. Back when you never had to worry about the veryt real possibility of a salary cap. You can't just add big salaried players anymore without thinking about the long term ramifications.

#2. Most of the deals you mentioned didn't win the teams a Cup in the year the trade was made.

Bourque - Avalanche lost in the WCF that year.

Nieuwendyk - not made last year, but the previous year and the Devils lost to the Canes in round #1

Morris - Avalanche lost to Wild in round #1

Chelios - Was aquired in 99, Wings didn't win the Cup in 99, 00 or 01. Finally won the Cup in 02

Hasek - Really wasn't a trade, but a free agent signing.

Schnieder - swept in round 1

Theo Fluery (Colorado) - lost in WCF

Blake - Stanley Cup winner.


All teams make deals near the trading deadline to strengthen the team, and the Flyers are no exception.

Recent Flyers aquisitions near the trade deadline: Amonte, Kapanen, Yushkevich, Lapointe, Oates, etc. etc.

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12-08-2003, 09:27 AM
  #21
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This team works harder than any Flyers team in a looooong time. There aren't too many goals that came from a lucky bounce (on the actual goal that is) this season. They are scoring plenty. I see no need for a one way player until they can pick up a goaltender like Brodeur. The Flyers didn't share the lowest goals against with the Devil's because of Cechmanek. It's defensemen and forwards coming back to play defense.

If we do trade someone, I wouldn't be heartbroken to see Kapenen go. Handzus is a force. He lead the team in game winning goals last year and shuts people down defensively. Kapenen has speed and plays defense, but I haven't seen much of a scoring touch there.

 
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