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A leader like Sundin

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Old
02-19-2007, 12:32 AM
  #51
JrHockeyFan
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Huh?

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Originally Posted by philosophical___ View Post
anyone catch parts of tonights toronto game vs. edmonton?

what we're missing is a leader like sundin, someone who can lead emotionally, but also physically dominate the game. his second goal was insane, he literally had steve staios on his shoulder, and he carried him. the one player that i would love to have on the habs, of every forward in the league is mats sundin. just because he's a star every season, consistent as anyone, and this is in an organization that has probably given him 1 good winger to play with his entire career (mogilny).

he's made many players better than they ever would have been, hoglund, thomas (his late years), etc.

koivu is great, what an emotional leader, but he has yet to dominate a game like sundin.

gainey needs to look at this issue for the long-term.
A leader like Sundin? This is the same Sundin that the Leaf fans criticized.

The everlasting image I have of Sundin is when he was with the Nordiques. They were playing the Habs in that big Series where they blew the 2 to 0 lead. Petit Tigre was imploring the players to give a crap, and here was Sundin with this "who gives a bleep" smirk.

Exactly what has Sundin ever led the Leafs to?

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02-19-2007, 12:38 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
A leader like Sundin? This is the same Sundin that the Leaf fans criticized.

The everlasting image I have of Sundin is when he was with the Nordiques. They were playing the Habs in that big Series where they blew the 2 to 0 lead. Petit Tigre was imploring the players to give a crap, and here was Sundin with this "who gives a bleep" smirk.

Exactly what has Sundin ever led the Leafs to?
What has Koivu ever led the Habs to?

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Old
02-19-2007, 12:40 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
What has Koivu ever led the Habs to?
Nothing.. that was the point of his post. Leaders are nothing if there's no supporting cast.

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Old
02-19-2007, 12:45 AM
  #54
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Lol

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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
What has Koivu ever led the Habs to?
At the very least, the playoffs last year. And came back this year after almost losing sight in one eye in those playoffs.

Sundin would have packed up and gone home if he faced half the adversity Koivu has on or off the ice.

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02-19-2007, 12:56 AM
  #55
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Good point

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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
Nothing.. that was the point of his post. Leaders are nothing if there's no supporting cast.
I can agree with that. Is the issue with this team leadership or lack of a dominant scorer, which neither Koivu or Sundin is.

Given the choice of the 10 points more that Sundin has or having Koivu as Capt, I'd just as soon stick with Koivu thanks.

Sundin would not be a better Captain than Koivu. Sundin has never impressed me in that regard.

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02-19-2007, 01:16 AM
  #56
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Okay attacking Koivu for not dominating a game like Sundin is a bull**** argument and you know it.

Koivu - 5'10", 181lbs.
Sundin - 6'5", 231lbs.

Gee which player would have an easier time winning battles in the corners and shrugging off defencemen? Koivu plays with as much, if not more heart than anyone in the league. On his first ever regular season shift he was welcomed to the NHL by an elbow from Eric Lindros. A bit later he took a run at Lindros with a clean hit in response.

Also lets not forget that Sundin was a 1st overall pick in the draft. Koivu was 21st (after the Leafs had taken both Kenny Jonsson, 12th, and Landon Wilson, 19th). So Koivu isn't performing on the same level as a player that was a first overall pick and is significantly larger than him. BIG surprise there.

Montreal has developed a nasty little string of getting rid of their captains and frankly I would love nothing more than to see Saku retire as captain. It's about time that string is broken. However, would I like to see a Sundin type player on the team along with Koivu? Sure, the newer model. His name is Joe Thornton and there's about as much chance of Montreal getting him as there is of them getting Sundin.

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02-19-2007, 01:21 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
I can agree with that. Is the issue with this team leadership or lack of a dominant scorer, which neither Koivu or Sundin is.

Given the choice of the 10 points more that Sundin has or having Koivu as Capt, I'd just as soon stick with Koivu thanks.

Sundin would not be a better Captain than Koivu. Sundin has never impressed me in that regard.
Oh lord. Sundin has gotten over 80pts 6 times, a 100 once, and under 70pts just twice in his career. And those years were 1) his rookie year and the second time was when he was out half the season. How many times has Koivu even gotten close to that? Yes Koivu has always been hurt but that just shows how resilient Sundin has been over the years. And yes, Koivu hasn't had the greatest of supporting cast but Sundin has had crappy line mates most of his playing career (minus maybe the time he was with the Nords). The only time I can think of when he had a good winger to play with was when Mogilny was around and that was only a mere three years and in his twilight years. Heck, Sundin played with Hoglund and Renberg as a top line for what? 4 years? And he STILL got 70-80 pts each year. Look who he is playing with right now while being over a point per game. He's been a rock solid and consistent performer who should have had a better career if only he played for a better team. Koivu should have had better players to play with also but he definitely isn't rock solid (not his fault mind you), or consistent though he has a heart of a lion (most times). I would probably pick Koivu over Sundin just because of what he has gone through and what he has meant for the Habs but Sundin has and is definitely the better player and is a good leader on a team that has until recently been a hopeless cause.

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02-19-2007, 07:59 AM
  #58
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Oh Please... I have said it for years. Koivu can't hold Sundin's jockstrap. The Koivu lovefest amongst his fans is downright sickening (and has been for many years).

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02-19-2007, 09:26 AM
  #59
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A little off topic at this point in the thread but in response to everyone who's calling Koivu a second line center, I can't say I disagree. I could probably name at least 30 centers better than Koivu but to those who think it's a problem and Gainey needs to sign a number 1 center to fix it, I disagree. Say Gainey signed Briere in the offseason, the Habs would suddenly be one of the deepest teams in the league at center (Briere, Koivu, Plekanec, Bonk - maybe, Begin/Lapierre). Surround Koivu with a stronger supporting cast though (a powerforward) and Koivu's production would increase and the team would be much more balanced. The Habs may be deep on the wing but they are not strong up front, that is a need Gainey needs to address more than getting a first line center.

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02-19-2007, 09:38 AM
  #60
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Sundin is a great hockey player but a leader he is not.

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02-19-2007, 10:23 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophical___ View Post
anyone catch parts of tonights toronto game vs. edmonton?

what we're missing is a leader like sundin, someone who can lead emotionally, but also physically dominate the game. his second goal was insane, he literally had steve staios on his shoulder, and he carried him. the one player that i would love to have on the habs, of every forward in the league is mats sundin. just because he's a star every season, consistent as anyone, and this is in an organization that has probably given him 1 good winger to play with his entire career (mogilny).

he's made many players better than they ever would have been, hoglund, thomas (his late years), etc.

koivu is great, what an emotional leader, but he has yet to dominate a game like sundin.

gainey needs to look at this issue for the long-term.
there arent many hockey players like Sundin in the world.

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Old
02-19-2007, 10:40 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
No way, that was in 1994 and $4 million was big money.

http://moo.hawaii.edu:1749/hockey/misc/salary.html

These are numbers from 1996, when Sundin was still on his first contract with the Leafs. He was getting $2.9 million Canadian a season, which is probably closer to $2.3 million US. Hardly the greedy ******* our ill informed friend would like to make him out to be.

Hmm, I really think he got 4m x 3 but it may have been frontloaded with a signing bonus...I will post a thread on the Leafs board see if anyone remembers better. As mentioned by someone elso, Page blasting Sundin on the bench in the playoffs might have accelerated his departure as well.

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Old
02-19-2007, 10:54 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs_24x View Post
Sundin is a great hockey player but a leader he is not.
The same leader who has been chosen to captain team Sweden over the past ten years. Chosen over the likes of Alfredsson (Current Sen's Captain), Lidstrom(Current Wings Captain), and Forsberg (Former Flyers captain) to be the leader of the Swedish national team and eventually lead them to a gold medal.


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02-19-2007, 11:00 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by leafsin2007 View Post
The same leader who has been chosen to captain team Sweden over the past ten years. Chosen over the likes of Alfredsson (Current Sen's Captain), Lidstrom(Current Wings Captain), and Forsberg (Former Flyers captain) to be the leader of the Swedish national team and eventually lead them to a gold metal.
you mean medal.

Anyways, Koivu is the Captain of the Finnish national team and has been captain over the last ten years. Chosen over the likes of Jokinen (Current Panthers Captain, Timmonen (Current Preds Captain), Numminen (Former Coyotes Captain), and of course Teemu Selanne (the second greatest player to ever come out of finland) to be the leader of the Finnish National tram and lead them to a WC Final and an Olympic Final in the last 2 major International events.

All those facts and yet we always question his leadership abilities. Koivu is not a great leader. Not saying Sundin is not a great leader but just throwing out those things proves nothing.

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Old
02-19-2007, 11:11 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by J. Greenstein View Post
Hmm, I really think he got 4m x 3 but it may have been frontloaded with a signing bonus...I will post a thread on the Leafs board see if anyone remembers better. As mentioned by someone elso, Page blasting Sundin on the bench in the playoffs might have accelerated his departure as well.
He was making $650,000 in Quebec. He was traded to Toronto who gave him $2 million (that depended on him hitting certain stats) until 97-98.

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02-19-2007, 11:25 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH View Post
you mean medal.

Anyways, Koivu is the Captain of the Finnish national team and has been captain over the last ten years. Chosen over the likes of Jokinen (Current Panthers Captain, Timmonen (Current Preds Captain), Numminen (Former Coyotes Captain), and of course Teemu Selanne (the second greatest player to ever come out of finland) to be the leader of the Finnish National tram and lead them to a WC Final and an Olympic Final in the last 2 major International events.

All those facts and yet we always question his leadership abilities. Koivu is not a great leader. Not saying Sundin is not a great leader but just throwing out those things proves nothing.
You mean team.

Anyways I wasn't questioning Koivu's leadership, I was just responding to the poster who claimed Sundin lacked leadership skills.

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Old
02-19-2007, 11:25 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Watzatheo View Post
If you don't mind me asking, what did he do?
Asked to be traded after the Nords refused to open his contract.

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Old
02-19-2007, 11:35 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchguy View Post
don't forget that Sundin and his agent were mad at Pagé because he spent 3 minutes yelling at him in front of everyone on the bench during a game vs the rangers in the '93 playoffs.

you can read sone information about that here http://www.trevorcole.com/Journalism/Mats-Sundin.html

it starts where it's written : ''It happened in the first round of the 1993 playoffs, as the Nordiques...''


Many people still think that this was the turning point that made Sundin available. This is also what is said in the dvd ''Les Nordiques'' that I highly recommand.



So, before talking trash about Sundin, you should know the facts, he isn't a greedy ****like you said.

Thumbs up to Sundin, he used to live almost on the same street as me, was my favorite Nordique, and is now my favorite Leaf.
I have never trashed talked Sundin, ever; and, I have always said that it was one of the dumbest moves ever.

I know what the offical story is but I don't beleive it to be the cause. Pagé was fired and Sundin was traded; I my mind they would have kept one of them if that situation did launch it all up.

As I stated previously, I have always been pissed at Lacroix and Aubut for that trade. For me, the main reason Aubut had for trading Sundin that he wanted to sell the team as fast as possible; trading Sundin helped the team in the very short range even if in the long run it was a very bad move. He did not care of the long term since he would get his money and be away from it all.

I suspect Pagé being fired as he did not want to trade Sundin. I have always thought of Lacroix as a bad GM even if he did do a couple of good moves. He did get a club that was packed to the bones with talent. On top of that he did get a gift in the Roy trade. In my mind, all Lacroix has done is to maintain a team at the top for a few years but this team was all set to rule anyways.

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02-19-2007, 11:51 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by leafsin2007 View Post
You mean team.

Anyways I wasn't questioning Koivu's leadership, I was just responding to the poster who claimed Sundin lacked leadership skills.
Actually you mis-read what I wrote. Just by throwing all that stuff out there (like him being captain Sweden) proves nothing about his leadership abilities. Koivu has the same international captaincy credits and I for one think he is not a very good leader.

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02-19-2007, 01:29 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbs View Post
He was making $650,000 in Quebec. He was traded to Toronto who gave him $2 million (that depended on him hitting certain stats) until 97-98.
Thanks, my memory is really startin to go. Anyhow, in response to the poster who called him a greedy something or other, true that he's been well paid by TO but he's never had any contract squabbles here, he's pretty much accepted what was put in front of him by the Leafs. It's been good for both sides.

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02-19-2007, 04:26 PM
  #71
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guys koivu is good (would probably be better with decent linemates) and a good leader and an inspiration.

but comparing him to sundin is like ranger fans comparing messier to mario. no need to put down sundin to make ourselves feel better than koivu.

Sundin is better than koivu in basically every aspect of hockey. But that shouldn't change what koivu does and what he means to the habs.

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02-19-2007, 04:36 PM
  #72
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Sundin is a great player.

That said... All the Habs fans who just said that they want Sundin to "lead" the Canadiens or want Koivu to become more of a Sundin type leader will have their habs fans privileges suspended until further notice.

I have taken names.


The suspension includes:

1- No more yelling "GO HABS GO"
2- No more mentionning "24 cups" in an argument
3- No right to wear a Habs jersey
4- No right to make fun of Leaf fans by yelling "1967"
and finally
5- No more drinking Molson Ex.

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02-19-2007, 04:54 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Ironically, Sundin was out for the first month of the season with a puck to the eye. Congratulations on last year's first round exit, by the way.
And Koivu missed a month as well...what's your point?

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Old
02-19-2007, 04:57 PM
  #74
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5- No more drinking Molson Ex.
this is not a penalty!

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Old
02-19-2007, 06:52 PM
  #75
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I've handed out enough warnings in this thread.

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