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Koivu should be traded

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Old
02-18-2007, 04:04 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Anyone notice that he went on his slump right when the news of him being Cancer-Free was released?
it was a way before that . When i read the news about his cancer-free , i tought it was the problem with him lately , the guy was just nervous about his health test .

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02-18-2007, 04:06 PM
  #77
As the Glorious Weep
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I guess callers on open line shows can re-inforce stereotypes a bit, whether it's Ron on CKAC, Tony on 990, or wherever.
It seems like a Hab fan social phenomenom wherein since the team has had legendary succees, we feel we know more or are owed more.

This team was bouncing around fine and the bottom fell out. It fell out more spectacularly than anyone could've predicted, and it's natural to a point to wonder why or point fingers.

Like I said before, it has to be evaluated whether Koivu's return on the market justifies moving him. I don't belive so, but how could I know another GM's thoughts here ?

Some fans have their agendas with Koivu, some of them post here. I don't see Pascal being one of them if that's what he's been accused of here. I disagree with the premise of him being the issue in terms of leadership. I think Koivu's given a lot to the city and been a pretty good example . Maybe his time has come to go, I don't really think it's a good idea but it bears discussion at least.

Yeah, there are fans that are influenced by media innuendo. Gainey wouldn't go on the record with Marc Defoy in a coffee shop, so he'll get negative press for it. Some guys have had it out for Koivu because he doesn't cater to media the way they'd like. Keep in mind when you read something that journalists on both sides of our media use their columns for personal reasons.
I have no problem with discussing Koivu getting traded, however the following justifications are not valid:
1. He doesn't know french
2. He's not a good leader
3. He's been in a slump (while ignoring that most of the rest of the team has been worst)
4. He's a snob

Possibly valid justifications:
1. Overpaid for what he brings to the team


I also can't stand people on those shows throwing tantrums: it's just hockey. Also, most people seem to be offended with Koivu simply because he is not a quebecker and is the captain of the team.

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02-18-2007, 04:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by bayrider View Post
I hope Koivu does get traded, to a team that actually deserves him instead of a place where they ***** and moan and have superhuman expectations, then call for his execution when he doesn't perform to the greatness the Habs once were.

Koivu deserves so much more than the scrutiny this province gives him. Yet he finds a way to deal with the idiotic pressure and the idiotic fans jumping on his back because he doesn't speak the language of hockey, which I have learned to be that of the French language. The things Koivu has done for this team and for this city is greater than all the members of this "community" have ever done, combined.

Trade Koivu, and I hope he fares better than with the garbage team has been surrounded by, the garbage the fans throw at him, and the garbage the media spews for his entire career.
What are those stages... anger, denial, acceptance, whatever, whatever? Somewhere there's a sequence like that which should apply to our crash this season in general, or to Koivu in particular. And somewhere in that sequence, your post fits perfectly IMHO. Get Koivu onto a team and playing in front of a fanbase that can appreciate him. He does deserve so much more.

Well, there are 22 games left to move onto the next stage in the sequence, anyway. And I'd be shocked if there aren't a few more seasons left of repeating the whole silly sequence all over again. It really must get tiresome for the players, I agree... although hopefully they pay a whole lot less attention to it than we do.

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02-18-2007, 04:13 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
What are those stages... anger, denial, acceptance, whatever, whatever? Somewhere there's a sequence like that which should apply to our crash this season in general, or to Koivu in particular. And somewhere in that sequence, your post fits perfectly IMHO. Get Koivu onto a team and playing in front of a fanbase that can appreciate him. He does deserve so much more.

Well, there are 22 games left to move onto the next stage in the sequence, anyway. And I'd be shocked if there aren't a few more seasons left of repeating the whole silly sequence all over again. It really must get tiresome for the players, I agree... although hopefully they pay a whole lot less attention to it than we do.
Amen.

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02-18-2007, 04:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by As the Glorious Weep View Post
I have no problem with discussing Koivu getting traded, however the following justifications are not valid:
1. He doesn't know french
2. He's not a good leader
3. He's been in a slump (while ignoring that most of the rest of the team has been worst)
4. He's a snob

Possibly valid justifications:
1. Overpaid for what he brings to the team


I also can't stand people on those shows throwing tantrums: it's just hockey. Also, most people seem to be offended with Koivu simply because he is not a quebecker and is the captain of the team.
That was my favorite. The arguement seems to be that if he has been 'the guy' for the last era, the lack of success must be laid at his feet. I don't think that's a valid arguemnet because I reject the premise of 'the guy'. You need to have a team to win. Neither Gretzky nor lemieux won until the necessary pieces were added, not that SK is in their stratosphere. I believe the team needs a player who is better than Koivu to compete at a higher level. Expecting him to make everyone better over 80 games has become too much. if he is complimenting another player, let's see how it looks.

If the arguemnet is that his salry prevents getting a better player, well than it becomes a discussion, and a difficult one.


As to his slump, I wish I knew. I have no arguemnet or complaint with effort. None whatsoever. I don't like the penalties he's taken out of frustration. He needs to not make the team pay in these sitautions. I think that when Higgins went down, Koivu carried an extremely heavy load. Latendresse picked up scoring slack,but Koivu put the kid in position to produce on a consistent basis. That took a toll on Koivu. A healthy Higgins provides forechecking and some speed that lets Koivu move the puck easily. Higgins hasn't been the same and though they've played better the last few games, nothing is going right. I think Koivu hits a wall physically and mentally, and it's happened before. I heard Randy Tieman saying that it's to be expected physiologically with Koivu's history. Tieman's knows what chemo does to you, but I don't know if that's an issue. Nothing's going right though, and that goes deper than Koivu.

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02-18-2007, 04:26 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
What are those stages... anger, denial, acceptance, whatever, whatever? Somewhere there's a sequence like that which should apply to our crash this season in general, or to Koivu in particular. And somewhere in that sequence, your post fits perfectly IMHO. Get Koivu onto a team and playing in front of a fanbase that can appreciate him. He does deserve so much more.

Well, there are 22 games left to move onto the next stage in the sequence, anyway. And I'd be shocked if there aren't a few more seasons left of repeating the whole silly sequence all over again. It really must get tiresome for the players, I agree... although hopefully they pay a whole lot less attention to it than we do.
C'mon BG, you don't find him a bit snobby ? Wait long enough, we'll hear it all.

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02-18-2007, 04:27 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by bayrider View Post
I hope Koivu does get traded, to a team that actually deserves him instead of a place where they ***** and moan and have superhuman expectations, then call for his execution when he doesn't perform to the greatness the Habs once were.

Koivu deserves so much more than the scrutiny this province gives him. Yet he finds a way to deal with the idiotic pressure and the idiotic fans jumping on his back because he doesn't speak the language of hockey, which I have learned to be that of the French language. The things Koivu has done for this team and for this city is greater than all the members of this "community" have ever done, combined.

Trade Koivu, and I hope he fares better than with the garbage team has been surrounded by, the garbage the fans throw at him, and the garbage the media spews for his entire career.
I can't disagree more. Nowadays, and to a certain degree not the players' fault, expectations comes with salaries especially in a salary cap world. Theo was bad but he was the worst 'cause of his salary. Aebisher is not that great, he's OK though 'cause anyway he's UFA next year, imagine 3 more years at 5 millions.....Saku is well paid for the kind of results he puts on the ice right now. Is he alone that is not contributing, of course not, the whole team sucks. But is it normal that the highest paid guys should be some of the highest contributors to the team?

And as far as what the city has done for Koivu and what he did for that city, I'm speachless. He has to be the more loved guy on this team and this without communicating at all in French. Not saying it's good or bad, as a matter of fact I'm tired of that ********, but I'm saying that he probably got the 2nd best ovation for any Habs players when he returned from his cancer, got an awesome ovation for this year's milestone, is always at least top 3 as the favorite Habs player for the last 10 years and now he's not getting any recognition 'cause he's criticized??? Brisebois gave tons for the community and still does, so I guess he should never have been booed? What about Theo, he didn't gave for the community? Kovalev has his loge at the Bell Centre, we shouldn't say anything because of that?

I really don't get the exemption for criticizm here.....Koivu got the greatest treatments by the greatest doctors and received tons of messages from fans being behind him and still does. Williams from the Canes still is booed for what he did to Saku. Would he still be booed if it would have been against Murray???? People acknowledge that he's one of the most important players of the team and expect some.

Now, to Saku's defense, if Bob or whoever before him would've acknowledge that Saku would be a superb 2nd line center and never a 1st one, expectations would've drop a little. But what do you say to fans who saw Damphousse and Turgeon being tossed and traded to let the 1st line center position for Saku? Weren't they suppose to have faith in the management and that if they think he's #1 material, maybe we should think that way too????

Again, it's all about " And what if it's time for a change"??? There's a whole world of difference than " And what if this punk is no good and we trade him for a bag of pucks"........


Last edited by Whitesnake: 02-18-2007 at 04:34 PM.
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Old
02-18-2007, 04:32 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
C'mon BG, you don't find him a bit snobby ? Wait long enough, we'll hear it all.
I'm definitely in a glass house on the snobbiness issue, so I'd better not say anything there. I'll just not-so-quietly add the snob-accusers to my vaunted ignore list. (Is anti-snob snobbery still snobbery or can I get off the hook on a double negative technicality of some sort?)

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02-18-2007, 05:03 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I can't disagree more. Nowadays, and to a certain degree not the players' fault, expectations comes with salaries especially in a salary cap world. Theo was bad but he was the worst 'cause of his salary. Aebisher is not that great, he's OK though 'cause anyway he's UFA next year, imagine 3 more years at 5 millions.....Saku is well paid for the kind of results he puts on the ice right now. Is he alone that is not contributing, of course not, the whole team sucks. But is it normal that the highest paid guys should be some of the highest contributors to the team?

And as far as what the city has done for Koivu and what he did for that city, I'm speachless. He has to be the more loved guy on this team and this without communicating at all in French. Not saying it's good or bad, as a matter of fact I'm tired of that ********, but I'm saying that he probably got the 2nd best ovation for any Habs players when he returned from his cancer, got an awesome ovation for this year's milestone, is always at least top 3 as the favorite Habs player for the last 10 years and now he's not getting any recognition 'cause he's criticized??? Brisebois gave tons for the community and still does, so I guess he should never have been booed? What about Theo, he didn't gave for the community? Kovalev has his loge at the Bell Centre, we shouldn't say anything because of that?

I really don't get the exemption for criticizm here.....Koivu got the greatest treatments by the greatest doctors and received tons of messages from fans being behind him and still does. Williams from the Canes still is booed for what he did to Saku. Would he still be booed if it would have been against Murray???? People acknowledge that he's one of the most important players of the team and expect some.

Now, to Saku's defense, if Bob or whoever before him would've acknowledge that Saku would be a superb 2nd line center and never a 1st one, expectations would've drop a little. But what do you say to fans who saw Damphousse and Turgeon being tossed and traded to let the 1st line center position for Saku? Weren't they suppose to have faith in the management and that if they think he's #1 material, maybe we should think that way too????

Again, it's all about " And what if it's time for a change"??? There's a whole world of difference than " And what if this punk is no good and we trade him for a bag of pucks"........
Nice post. It's funny that a lot of the self-described voice-of-reason type of posts about defending and keeping Koivu try to make the issue about ungrateful fans, viscious media, unrealistic expectations, etc. Much of this loyalty to Koivu is based on refuting strawman arguments that people want him to be traded because he can't speak French or whatever other nonsense.

Of course, not all Koivu loyalists. There are some, like mcphee especially, who make a good case (though I remain unconvinced). But what's so irrational about wondering whether it's time to change?

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02-18-2007, 05:45 PM
  #85
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Nice post. It's funny that a lot of the self-described voice-of-reason type of posts about defending and keeping Koivu try to make the issue about ungrateful fans, viscious media, unrealistic expectations, etc. Much of this loyalty to Koivu is based on refuting strawman arguments that people want him to be traded because he can't speak French or whatever other nonsense.

Of course, not all Koivu loyalists. There are some, like mcphee especially, who make a good case (though I remain unconvinced). But what's so irrational about wondering whether it's time to change?

I like to think that rational=agrees with me. Disagrees with me=irrational xenophobe. If only it were that simple.

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02-18-2007, 05:50 PM
  #86
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Saku should stay as our SECOND center..

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02-18-2007, 05:52 PM
  #87
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Saku should stay as our SECOND center..
I agree. Now find the first line center.

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02-18-2007, 05:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by As the Glorious Weep View Post
I agree. Now find the first line center.
He is a bit expensive for a second-line center, but I would keep him, at least to finish his current contract.

But if he wants to leave, I would let him go, for his own goods. Since a couple of months, he looks totally disinterested ? or depresssed ? or exhausted ? or fed up ?

Your answer is as good as mine.

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02-18-2007, 06:02 PM
  #89
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He should be traded as soon as possible !!



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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
Like I mentioned last week... I'll bring it up again to see if the opinions have changed after another 4-5 "games" our glorious have "played".

Every year these meltdowns happen, so where is the captain in all of this? He should be the one fixing up the issues on and off the ice, along with the coach, and I don't believe 4-5 coaches have been unable to do their part. Koivu simply isn't able to keep a room in a good state for a whole year. And he hasn't been leading the team on the ice either ever since his buddy got benched. Great example there.

We should trade him and rebuild around our young guys and not rely on him to carry us to the cup, because it simply won't happen.

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02-18-2007, 07:57 PM
  #90
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He should be traded as soon as possible !!
Why and for whom?

You don't even have a suggestion of what Koivu's value might be. But from your perpsective, I suppose just getting him off the roster would be a positive.

There are no constructive ideas whatsoever in your post. In fact there are no ideas of any kind... just a predisposed bias against Koivu.

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02-18-2007, 08:50 PM
  #91
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Koivu had a goal and an assist tonight.

Time to retire his number, eh guys?

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02-18-2007, 09:08 PM
  #92
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By saying that, you are telling me that you think that Kovalev, Higgins and Ryder are accomplished enough to deserve playing with an accomplished center.

Sadly they are not....maybe Kovalev was a few years ago, but not now.
No , it's telling that you have a conclusion that can be turn over easily .

Higgins ( 25 ) Ryder ( 30 ) and Kovalev ( 20 and + ) with their last season( s ) productions , proved that they are accomplished players . Higgins and Ryder have both scored more goals in their first season , than Koivu who never did better than 21 .

I don't say that they are better than him , but that we can say that they would have more points , if playing with a center that is playing more than 40 games per season.

So with that logic , your conclusion isn't better than the other one .

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02-18-2007, 09:18 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I can't disagree more. Nowadays, and to a certain degree not the players' fault, expectations comes with salaries especially in a salary cap world. Theo was bad but he was the worst 'cause of his salary. Aebisher is not that great, he's OK though 'cause anyway he's UFA next year, imagine 3 more years at 5 millions.....Saku is well paid for the kind of results he puts on the ice right now. Is he alone that is not contributing, of course not, the whole team sucks. But is it normal that the highest paid guys should be some of the highest contributors to the team?

And as far as what the city has done for Koivu and what he did for that city, I'm speachless. He has to be the more loved guy on this team and this without communicating at all in French. Not saying it's good or bad, as a matter of fact I'm tired of that ********, but I'm saying that he probably got the 2nd best ovation for any Habs players when he returned from his cancer, got an awesome ovation for this year's milestone, is always at least top 3 as the favorite Habs player for the last 10 years and now he's not getting any recognition 'cause he's criticized??? Brisebois gave tons for the community and still does, so I guess he should never have been booed? What about Theo, he didn't gave for the community? Kovalev has his loge at the Bell Centre, we shouldn't say anything because of that?

I really don't get the exemption for criticizm here.....Koivu got the greatest treatments by the greatest doctors and received tons of messages from fans being behind him and still does. Williams from the Canes still is booed for what he did to Saku. Would he still be booed if it would have been against Murray???? People acknowledge that he's one of the most important players of the team and expect some.

Now, to Saku's defense, if Bob or whoever before him would've acknowledge that Saku would be a superb 2nd line center and never a 1st one, expectations would've drop a little. But what do you say to fans who saw Damphousse and Turgeon being tossed and traded to let the 1st line center position for Saku? Weren't they suppose to have faith in the management and that if they think he's #1 material, maybe we should think that way too????

Again, it's all about " And what if it's time for a change"??? There's a whole world of difference than " And what if this punk is no good and we trade him for a bag of pucks"........
very good post . That say it all .

we discuss black and white . But the reality is made of grey

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02-18-2007, 10:34 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave View Post
Nice post. It's funny that a lot of the self-described voice-of-reason type of posts about defending and keeping Koivu try to make the issue about ungrateful fans, viscious media, unrealistic expectations, etc. Much of this loyalty to Koivu is based on refuting strawman arguments that people want him to be traded because he can't speak French or whatever other nonsense.

Of course, not all Koivu loyalists. There are some, like mcphee especially, who make a good case (though I remain unconvinced). But what's so irrational about wondering whether it's time to change?
Even in a crazy world crying out for rationality, there are still a few worthy causes which require suspension of that rationality. Koivu loyalty is one such, IMO. We don't want to become completely robotic in our unmodulated voice-of-reason roles, after all.

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02-18-2007, 10:50 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
Like I mentioned last week... I'll bring it up again to see if the opinions have changed after another 4-5 "games" our glorious have "played".

Every year these meltdowns happen, so where is the captain in all of this? He should be the one fixing up the issues on and off the ice, along with the coach, and I don't believe 4-5 coaches have been unable to do their part. Koivu simply isn't able to keep a room in a good state for a whole year. And he hasn't been leading the team on the ice either ever since his buddy got benched. Great example there.

We should trade him and rebuild around our young guys and not rely on him to carry us to the cup, because it simply won't happen.
Never. He's our captain and will soon become a great 2nd ceterman for our team.

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02-19-2007, 02:38 AM
  #96
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But what's so irrational about wondering whether it's time to change?
It's not irrational, it's pointless. He has a no trade clause, so there's a lot of talk for nothing. I know he can agree to waive his NTC, but until he agrees to do so, it's pointless cause it is unlikely at this point. I know that many are not happy with him and most players on the team due to a massive slump and I think most are just fed up with this team overall at this point. If the team wasn't doing so bad this thread and threads like these would be few and far between. But when you drop from at one point being top 5 in the nhl to tied for 16th, fans will vent. Koivu has been brutal for the past month+ (aside from tonight) just has most of the team aside from Souray/Pleks/Streit, and as the highest paid player on the team, I can see why he gets more crap slung at him then the others.

The problem I have is that some have a short memory and are ungrateful in what Koivu has done for us. During the lean years, which this slump has been a painful flashback to those seasons, Koivu was the one player that we could count on to provide offense. If you look back at his career, every single year he's played for the Habs except the two where he played 3 games and 24 games, he was in the top 3 in scoring for the Habs. That's 9 seasons of being one of the top 3 scorers including this year, but that fact means little to nothing to some, which I just don't understand. It's a team game and any one person is not a fault, despite that person wearing the C or being the highest paid. Yes we have not gone past the 2nd round with Koivu as captain and if people really want to believe that it's his fault alone, so be it since I usually ignore them.

If this team misses the playoffs, it will be a huge step backwards and Koivu will have to take his share of the blame, just as Carbo, Gainey, the staff, and just about every player on the team aside from a few that are having career years. I don't know what Gainey would do if we miss the playoffs, but I would bet that Koivu will be back. I have no clue what's been going on with him lately, he hasn't looked right for a while now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him once again be one of the top 3 scorers on the team. I know to some that it's not enough, but my answer to that, is you need to add pieces not take away.

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02-19-2007, 06:10 AM
  #97
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Again, it's all about " And what if it's time for a change"??? There's a whole world of difference than " And what if this punk is no good and we trade him for a bag of pucks"........
I agree. The problem is that if we are looking to compete for the Stanley Cup, we have two #2 centremen, Koivu and Plekanec. It just might be that in a cap world, trading a $4.8M Koivu for, say, a $2.8M #3 defenceman, is part of a package of moves that will pave the way to acquire a TOP CENTRE.

Alexei Kovalev is a similar case. I am not a Kovy basher and in fact give the guy enormous credit for trying to play through pain the last two months. You could see there was a problem when even his stickhandling skills slipped. But even if he comes back healthy, moving him MIGHT be the right thing to do if it helps the overall asset management plan.

In the new NHL, you get only so many $$ to spend, and every team has to make the best of it. On the Habs, we seem solid in net, have an excellent shutdown line, promising energy players, but lack somewhat in mobile defencemen and top scorers.

The trick is to maximize the value of the $$ spent on the scorers, and from this point of view, trading Koivu or Kovalev are legitimate options, NOT because they are worthless but because they in fact DO have value....to the right team in the right situation.

For our team, in our situation, given the weakness on defence, Markov and Souray are priority guys to retain, and we need to upgrade the offence at the same time to get one or two high producing stars. There is probably no room in the payroll for Markov AND Souray AND a top centreman AND a top winger AND Koivu AND Kovalev.

That's all. No hatred for Koivu, no bashing of Kovalev; heck the solution might well come without losing them both, so let's appreciate the guys we have but look objectively to get better as well.

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02-19-2007, 01:32 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Evil Ted View Post
Yeah your darn right or get some players besides a couple of guys who hardly have 3 NHL seasons under there belts.

Koivu plays with Ryder and Higgins and a bit with Latendresse this year guys who have hardly established themselfs in the NHL yet at all.

What do you expect he can only carry so much of the load thats why this trade him away crap is getting old, give Koivu some wingers with tallent and he will put points on the board.
+1
This is the same story year after year. Kovalev was supposed to take the pressure off, the same with Samsonov. For pity sake give the guy some good wingers before he retires or gets so fed up he wants out.

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02-19-2007, 02:22 PM
  #99
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It's not irrational, it's pointless. He has a no trade clause, so there's a lot of talk for nothing. I know he can agree to waive his NTC, but until he agrees to do so, it's pointless cause it is unlikely at this point. I know that many are not happy with him and most players on the team due to a massive slump and I think most are just fed up with this team overall at this point. If the team wasn't doing so bad this thread and threads like these would be few and far between. But when you drop from at one point being top 5 in the nhl to tied for 16th, fans will vent. Koivu has been brutal for the past month+ (aside from tonight) just has most of the team aside from Souray/Pleks/Streit, and as the highest paid player on the team, I can see why he gets more crap slung at him then the others.

The problem I have is that some have a short memory and are ungrateful in what Koivu has done for us. During the lean years, which this slump has been a painful flashback to those seasons, Koivu was the one player that we could count on to provide offense. If you look back at his career, every single year he's played for the Habs except the two where he played 3 games and 24 games, he was in the top 3 in scoring for the Habs. That's 9 seasons of being one of the top 3 scorers including this year, but that fact means little to nothing to some, which I just don't understand. It's a team game and any one person is not a fault, despite that person wearing the C or being the highest paid. Yes we have not gone past the 2nd round with Koivu as captain and if people really want to believe that it's his fault alone, so be it since I usually ignore them.

If this team misses the playoffs, it will be a huge step backwards and Koivu will have to take his share of the blame, just as Carbo, Gainey, the staff, and just about every player on the team aside from a few that are having career years. I don't know what Gainey would do if we miss the playoffs, but I would bet that Koivu will be back. I have no clue what's been going on with him lately, he hasn't looked right for a while now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him once again be one of the top 3 scorers on the team. I know to some that it's not enough, but my answer to that, is you need to add pieces not take away.
That's the kind of thing I mean. I see how frustrating that it is, and one of my fan peeves is the Fire Gainey/Fire Carbonneau type of thread. But I find that for all of the, "Poor Koivu gets so much poo slung at him by ingrate fans," it's actually the opposite. Just whenever this topic comes up, highly respected Habs posters say things like they now know who to ignore and other kinds of ultra-condescending statements. It strikes me as true-believer-ish and knee-jerk as fans who inevitably bring up the "trade koivu cuz he sucks" threads.

Why dismiss the idea as pointless? Players have NTC, and players still get traded. Big deal. Forsberg had a NTC, many posters were absolutely certain he wouldn't waive it. But there was still a point in discussing it on hockey discussion board.

It's just not about dumping him for nothing. We're not talking about Slumpsonov here. It's not just about adding pieces rather than taking away or vice versa, as the whole point of a Koivu trade would be to add different pieces for a different team identity, personality, or whatever you want to call it.

There's inconsistency in the "Never Trade Koivu" campaign. Yes, it's a team game. So, okay, it's not his fault. But why does loyalty to one player trump any consideration of improving the team? It's exactly because it's a team game based on winning rather than cheering your favourite individuals that a trade to improve the team is worth considering, even at the expense of losing a fan favourite.

It's also like the argument that Koivu is worth more to the Habs than anything they could get in a trade. Well, if we bracket the fan attachment, I just don't know what that means from a hockey perspective. If he's so valuable to the team, but he's still only a good 2nd line center, then his value is actually a function of how weak the team really is (and has been). Keeping him as the best player, best salary centerpiece just seems to perpetuate that. On the other hand, if he does in fact possess all those qualities that make him so valuable to the Habs (and I think he mostly does), then he could or would be just as valuable to another team, perhaps even more valuable in certain circumstances.

Anyway, if I were the GM, I wouldn't be as closed to the idea as most posters here are. I think it would be irresponsible management. That said, the best course might still be to build around him with marquee players better than Slovalev and Samsosoft. But how could you ever know if you refused to explore, let alone even consider an alternative?

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Old
02-19-2007, 02:56 PM
  #100
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
...
It's just not about dumping him for nothing. We're not talking about Slumpsonov here. It's not just about adding pieces rather than taking away or vice versa, as the whole point of a Koivu trade would be to add different pieces for a different team identity, personality, or whatever you want to call it.

There's inconsistency in the "Never Trade Koivu" campaign. Yes, it's a team game. So, okay, it's not his fault. But why does loyalty to one player trump any consideration of improving the team? It's exactly because it's a team game based on winning rather than cheering your favourite individuals that a trade to improve the team is worth considering, even at the expense of losing a fan favourite.
...
I think you partially answered some of the questions yourself, but nevertheless, even if they seem like too obvious answers, I have to say:

1. Why would we WANT a different personality/identity to the team? Koivu's is so irreproachable that I just find it hard to imagine how it could possibly remotely help us to change him for someone else. *Add* more irreproachable character around him, sure, great, that would make sense.

2. I also don't see how you improve the team by trading Koivu. Period. He's paid well enough that you probably don't get a flat out better player for him. i.e. you can't go trading him for another team's franchise-calibre player. Nobody's going to do that. Trade him for youth? We have youth already. Quite a lot of it. I don't see how that would make us a better team. (Well, unless you're talking 5 years down the road maybe, but I don't think we should be a team focused on 5 years down the road anymore than I think we should trade Koivu).

My bottom line is that, while sure, anybody can argue hypothetical scenarios, and nobody can prove or disprove them, I just fundamentally do not see how any change made involving Koivu would be anything but detrimental to our team in a practical sense, taking all of the factors surrounding him and the team into consideration. And we've had such an endless stream of these debates over the past half decade really, that I just don't see the point in it anymore. It's easier to just proclaim fanatical Koivu loyalty and plonk anybody who wants to dispute it IMHO.

And anybody who wants to use a 20 game slump to re-open the issue is just not affording Koivu the benefit of the doubt that he has more than amply earned. Seriously. Certain players DO earn that level of loyalty. Koivu is very clearly one such player. If you want to speculate about what to do "if" Koivu's slump carries over for another 40 games or so, well, that's entirely different IMHO. But I don't see any of the "trade Koivu" posts being prefaced with that condition.

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