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Koivu should be traded

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Old
02-19-2007, 02:59 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
...
Slumpsonov? Slovalev? Samsosoft? Not bad.

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Old
02-19-2007, 03:33 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think you partially answered some of the questions yourself, but nevertheless, even if they seem like too obvious answers, I have to say:

1. Why would we WANT a different personality/identity to the team? Koivu's is so irreproachable that I just find it hard to imagine how it could possibly remotely help us to change him for someone else. *Add* more irreproachable character around him, sure, great, that would make sense.

2. I also don't see how you improve the team by trading Koivu. Period. He's paid well enough that you probably don't get a flat out better player for him. i.e. you can't go trading him for another team's franchise-calibre player. Nobody's going to do that. Trade him for youth? We have youth already. Quite a lot of it. I don't see how that would make us a better team. (Well, unless you're talking 5 years down the road maybe, but I don't think we should be a team focused on 5 years down the road anymore than I think we should trade Koivu).

My bottom line is that, while sure, anybody can argue hypothetical scenarios, and nobody can prove or disprove them, I just fundamentally do not see how any change made involving Koivu would be anything but detrimental to our team in a practical sense, taking all of the factors surrounding him and the team into consideration. And we've had such an endless stream of these debates over the past half decade really, that I just don't see the point in it anymore. It's easier to just proclaim fanatical Koivu loyalty and plonk anybody who wants to dispute it IMHO.

And anybody who wants to use a 20 game slump to re-open the issue is just not affording Koivu the benefit of the doubt that he has more than amply earned. Seriously. Certain players DO earn that level of loyalty. Koivu is very clearly one such player. If you want to speculate about what to do "if" Koivu's slump carries over for another 40 games or so, well, that's entirely different IMHO. But I don't see any of the "trade Koivu" posts being prefaced with that condition.
If you want to make it about a 20 game slump, then go ahead, just as one can make it about the so-called language issue or whatever other false issue one can find. I see it as a second consecutive year where the team just collapses in the middle of a very good season, this time with a better roster and a different coach. That's a colossal failure, even if they somehow pull themselves together and manage to get the 8th seed. This is where the team was 5 years ago with a roster filled with retreads and trash, a different GM and a then-incompetent coach.

Again, that's not only about Koivu. But something should change. It's a team personality issue. I don't understand why you refuse to countenance "hypothetical" scenarios and yet insist on negative hypotheticals as undisputable truths: no team would trade good value (whatever that's stipulated to be), no deal involving Koivu could improve the team's personality in terms of on-ice performance. How do you know? It's just the same "pointless" hypothetical game, but with an admittedly frank declaration of the conclusion you want to reach. So much for a hockey discussion. You just want to make it about loyalty to the man. Fine. I'm just a fan of the team, and I want to see it win, with or without Koivu.

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02-19-2007, 04:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
If you want to make it about a 20 game slump, then go ahead, just as one can make it about the so-called language issue or whatever other false issue one can find. I see it as a second consecutive year where the team just collapses in the middle of a very good season, this time with a better roster and a different coach. That's a colossal failure, even if they somehow pull themselves together and manage to get the 8th seed. This is where the team was 5 years ago with a roster filled with retreads and trash, a different GM and a then-incompetent coach.

Again, that's not only about Koivu. But something should change.
Maybe what needs to change is: change. Why does something have to change? Or why does change have to be sudden and dramatic to convince people that it actually happened?

We had a slump last year. And successfully pulled out of it. We might even have staged a playoff upset... IF Koivu hadn't been hurt. Isn't that what we always say? Koivu was playing so well and was so important to us that he could have made that much difference against Carolina?

We had a slump this year. Are having. Maybe we pull out of it, maybe we don't. I guess the question is, are we able to see progress despite the outcome, or not? I happen to see progress. Young players are stepping up. Organizational depth is at a level it hasn't been at in a loooong time. I do agree that we're at something of a critical point, given our free agent situation, but as long as we're able to get through that, then I see every reason to think that the progress will continue. What else should we really expect?
Quote:
It's a team personality issue. I don't understand why you refuse to countenance "hypothetical" scenarios and yet insist on negative hypotheticals as undisputable truths: no team would trade good value (whatever that's stipulated to be), no deal involving Koivu could improve the team's personality in terms of on-ice performance. How do you know? It's just the same "pointless" hypothetical game, but with an admittedly frank declaration of the conclusion you want to reach. So much for a hockey discussion. You just want to make it about loyalty to the man. Fine. I'm just a fan of the team, and I want to see it win, with or without Koivu.
I don't know if you read that paragraph of mine the way I intended it to be read or not... I said *anybody* can argue hypotheticals. Positive or negative. And those of us who have been posting for decades already have. Hence *I* feel there is simply no argument forthcoming from any quarter that is going to change MY fundamental belief that there is nothing to be gained by trading Koivu. "I just fundamentally do not see..." I'm not trying to set any bars for non-existent absolute truths, I'm just saying why I, as a Koivu loyalist, think that the argument is - yes - blasphemous is an appropriate word in this case. I'm not close-minded about too many things in general, but on that issue, I truly am.

And I don't see any separation whatsoever between the issues of the team winning and Koivu being part of the team, so there is no higher plane of Habs fandom to be attained from my perspective by separating the two. They are so intertwined that if there were any such planes, the mere act of attempting to separate them would automatically invoke a lower plane.

I can see how modern business-oriented hockey will tend to drive people towards the goal of success for success' sake, winning as the only acceptable outcome, regardless of how it's achieved. That's our society, and hockey mirrors it. But for me (and perhaps other loyalists) there's still a need in our pursuit of entertainment (although "entertainment" seems like too soft a word for something we're so passionate about) for a romantic element, something more epic than merely stacking all the right blocks in all the right places to arrive, inevitably, at the top of the heap. I don't just want to win. I want to win with players I believe in, with players I've believed in for many years, I want to see *them* win. Maybe I want to have my cake and it eat it too. So be it. I want the Habs to win WITH Koivu, and ultimately to me, that's actually a HIGHER priority than just winning. Winning... been there, done that. (Even with other Koivus). But as long as it's not impossible (or even demonstrably more unlikely) for us to win WITH Koivu, then that's my goal. Nothing less.

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02-19-2007, 04:50 PM
  #104
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What comes first, Koivu's or the team's slump? This team is so dependant on him, it's not even funny. In the first ten games, Higgins was the best player, then he got hurt and we threw YET another rookie at Saks, expecting same results; delivered. Last season, he goes down in the playoffs, we get demolished. Didn't last season slump also coincide with Koivu's slump (that 20 game skid without a goal)? My point is, everyone keeps saying how Koivu is NOT a top notch player, can't carry a team on his shoulders, bla bla bla, but they expect him to do it all alone. I tend to agree with that BUT what is funny is that for the past few years, he HAS carried the team as the top offensive threat. Sure, he didn't carry them to the cup, but no single player can do that. Sure he didn't put up great numbers, but I think any reasonable fan can say he at least met expectations in those meager years. How many fans can say they've had better years in emotions than we did, in LARGE part thanks to Saks. OK, Avs, Wings, Devils maybe all won the cup enough times since 93 to have satisfied their fans, but aside from them. Koivu's comeback was incredible not to mention BOTH series against Boston. You see, when Saku has a slump, there's not enough talent on the team, let alone his line to pick it up. Pleks plays well but he doesn't take the pressure off the #1 center. Ryder can't score when Saku isn't on his game. Higgins is a workhorse, but he hasn't been the same this season. Kovalev doesn't play with Koivu. Latendresse is a rookie and Samsonov is a mystery this season. So who'll get Saku out of this slump? Who'll get the Habs out of it? Saku Koivu, and it started last night with his 1 goal and 1 assist. He'll give it his all, get us in the playoffs and almost die of exhaustion in round 1, leaving not much of his beat up body for round 2, but he'll be there. When he started, they should of gone in rebuilding mode, but they didn't, they strecthed it. Now our youth is pushing through the gate and the future is bright, but don't be blinded by it, acknowledged what has kept you watching through that rebuilding phase...

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02-19-2007, 05:44 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Maybe what needs to change is: change. Why does something have to change? Or why does change have to be sudden and dramatic to convince people that it actually happened?

We had a slump last year. And successfully pulled out of it. We might even have staged a playoff upset... IF Koivu hadn't been hurt. Isn't that what we always say? Koivu was playing so well and was so important to us that he could have made that much difference against Carolina?

We had a slump this year. Are having. Maybe we pull out of it, maybe we don't. I guess the question is, are we able to see progress despite the outcome, or not? I happen to see progress. Young players are stepping up. Organizational depth is at a level it hasn't been at in a loooong time. I do agree that we're at something of a critical point, given our free agent situation, but as long as we're able to get through that, then I see every reason to think that the progress will continue. What else should we really expect?
I don't know if you read that paragraph of mine the way I intended it to be read or not... I said *anybody* can argue hypotheticals. Positive or negative. And those of us who have been posting for decades already have. Hence *I* feel there is simply no argument forthcoming from any quarter that is going to change MY fundamental belief that there is nothing to be gained by trading Koivu. "I just fundamentally do not see..." I'm not trying to set any bars for non-existent absolute truths, I'm just saying why I, as a Koivu loyalist, think that the argument is - yes - blasphemous is an appropriate word in this case. I'm not close-minded about too many things in general, but on that issue, I truly am.

And I don't see any separation whatsoever between the issues of the team winning and Koivu being part of the team, so there is no higher plane of Habs fandom to be attained from my perspective by separating the two. They are so intertwined that if there were any such planes, the mere act of attempting to separate them would automatically invoke a lower plane.

I can see how modern business-oriented hockey will tend to drive people towards the goal of success for success' sake, winning as the only acceptable outcome, regardless of how it's achieved. That's our society, and hockey mirrors it. But for me (and perhaps other loyalists) there's still a need in our pursuit of entertainment (although "entertainment" seems like too soft a word for something we're so passionate about) for a romantic element, something more epic than merely stacking all the right blocks in all the right places to arrive, inevitably, at the top of the heap. I don't just want to win. I want to win with players I believe in, with players I've believed in for many years, I want to see *them* win. Maybe I want to have my cake and it eat it too. So be it. I want the Habs to win WITH Koivu, and ultimately to me, that's actually a HIGHER priority than just winning. Winning... been there, done that. (Even with other Koivus). But as long as it's not impossible (or even demonstrably more unlikely) for us to win WITH Koivu, then that's my goal. Nothing less.
I agree that the organization has made steady progress over the last 5 years or so, even this year. But the team has taken a decisive step backwards. I'm not trying to be academic with that distinction. A Koivu trade would be about strengthening the team by changing it. It's not a question of organizational turmoil. I think we agree that the organization is finally once again steady and stable, despite this disastrous slump, and there's nothing to be gained from a one-off panicky dump-the-captain-type of trade from an organizational perspective. (And this organizational stability is why I'm against firing Gainey and/or Carbonneau, for instance.)

But I see possibilities or "hypotheticals" that might improve the team. Maybe Koivu is Anaheim's Nieuwendyk, the missing player that could make them a dynasty. Maybe Minnesota sees Koivu as the guy to put them into the elite of the Western Conference for several seasons. And maybe that's worth something good in a trade. Pouliot? Ryan? Sure, that's just more of what the team already has. But maybe Timmins and co. really see that guy as something special. Maybe management has an eye to 2009, and believes that having two of their top 5 ranked players from the 2005 draft is just too great an opportunity to pass up. (Of course, if it's Joe Dipenta and 3rd round pick, then it just stops there.)

And this year there's Datsyuk, Briere, Gomez and other UFAs. There's always the possibility that one of Richards or Lecavalier will be traded to help that team get some balanced depth. Can Montreal re-sign both Souray and Markov, carry Kovalev (and sadly, Samsonov) and Koivu and still land one of those guys? Unlikely, as that would be (conservatively) around 30 million for 6 players. I already know that you and others wouldn't be at all interested in the possibility of replacing Koivu with any of those guys. I'd consider it. I'd weigh the chances of having a so-called elite offensive center while re-signing our two key UFA D and adding something blue chip-ish against staying the course with the same team that struggles to score goals and seems to have a penchant for mid-season collapses. (Of course, if Datsyuk is a greedy choker and Briere is a whiny diver, then it just stops there.)

Look, I respect your undying loyalty to Koivu. I suppose it's honourable to shun the new business-oriented success driven NHL, and prefer a more pastoral, watercolour time when teams would only truly win by winning with a team made up of players in whom the truly true fans believe. Where we ultimately disagree (it seems ) is Koivu's value to the organization, or franchise rather the team. I think there's more to being a Hab fan than being a Koivu fan. He'll always be admired and respected for his time here, whenever that ends. And I'll always be one to consider trading him, no matter how convoluted my hypotheticals get, to see a better team on the ice, one that's more deserving of being part of the organization's tradition that's so much bigger than any one current player.

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02-19-2007, 05:46 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
I agree that the organization has made steady progress over the last 5 years or so, even this year. But the team has taken a decisive step backwards. I'm not trying to be academic with that distinction. A Koivu trade would be about strengthening the team by changing it. It's not a question of organizational turmoil. I think we agree that the organization is finally once again steady and stable, despite this disastrous slump, and there's nothing to be gained from a one-off panicky dump-the-captain-type of trade from an organizational perspective. (And this organizational stability is why I'm against firing Gainey and/or Carbonneau, for instance.)

But I see possibilities or "hypotheticals" that might improve the team. Maybe Koivu is Anaheim's Nieuwendyk, the missing player that could make them a dynasty. Maybe Minnesota sees Koivu as the guy to put them into the elite of the Western Conference for several seasons. And maybe that's worth something good in a trade. Pouliot? Ryan? Sure, that's just more of what the team already has. But maybe Timmins and co. really see that guy as something special. Maybe management has an eye to 2009, and believes that having two of their top 5 ranked players from the 2005 draft is just too great an opportunity to pass up. (Of course, if it's Joe Dipenta and 3rd round pick, then it just stops there.)

And this year there's Datsyuk, Briere, Gomez and other UFAs. There's always the possibility that one of Richards or Lecavalier will be traded to help that team get some balanced depth. Can Montreal re-sign both Souray and Markov, carry Kovalev (and sadly, Samsonov) and Koivu and still land one of those guys? Unlikely, as that would be (conservatively) around 30 million for 6 players. I already know that you and others wouldn't be at all interested in the possibility of replacing Koivu with any of those guys. I'd consider it. I'd weigh the chances of having a so-called elite offensive center while re-signing our two key UFA D and adding something blue chip-ish against staying the course with the same team that struggles to score goals and seems to have a penchant for mid-season collapses. (Of course, if Datsyuk is a greedy choker and Briere is a whiny diver, then it just stops there.)

Look, I respect your undying loyalty to Koivu. I suppose it's honourable to shun the new business-oriented success driven NHL, and prefer a more pastoral, watercolour time when teams would only truly win by winning with a team made up of players in whom the truly true fans believe. Where we ultimately disagree (it seems ) is Koivu's value to the organization, or franchise rather the team. I think there's more to being a Hab fan than being a Koivu fan. He'll always be admired and respected for his time here, whenever that ends. And I'll always be one to consider trading him, no matter how convoluted my hypotheticals get, to see a better team on the ice, one that's more deserving of being part of the organization's tradition that's so much bigger than any one current player.
Excellent post !

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02-19-2007, 07:19 PM
  #107
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That's the kind of thing I mean. I see how frustrating that it is, and one of my fan peeves is the Fire Gainey/Fire Carbonneau type of thread. But I find that for all of the, "Poor Koivu gets so much poo slung at him by ingrate fans," it's actually the opposite. Just whenever this topic comes up, highly respected Habs posters say things like they now know who to ignore and other kinds of ultra-condescending statements. It strikes me as true-believer-ish and knee-jerk as fans who inevitably bring up the "trade koivu cuz he sucks" threads.

Why dismiss the idea as pointless? Players have NTC, and players still get traded. Big deal. Forsberg had a NTC, many posters were absolutely certain he wouldn't waive it. But there was still a point in discussing it on hockey discussion board.

It's just not about dumping him for nothing. We're not talking about Slumpsonov here. It's not just about adding pieces rather than taking away or vice versa, as the whole point of a Koivu trade would be to add different pieces for a different team identity, personality, or whatever you want to call it.

There's inconsistency in the "Never Trade Koivu" campaign. Yes, it's a team game. So, okay, it's not his fault. But why does loyalty to one player trump any consideration of improving the team? It's exactly because it's a team game based on winning rather than cheering your favourite individuals that a trade to improve the team is worth considering, even at the expense of losing a fan favourite.

It's also like the argument that Koivu is worth more to the Habs than anything they could get in a trade. Well, if we bracket the fan attachment, I just don't know what that means from a hockey perspective. If he's so valuable to the team, but he's still only a good 2nd line center, then his value is actually a function of how weak the team really is (and has been). Keeping him as the best player, best salary centerpiece just seems to perpetuate that. On the other hand, if he does in fact possess all those qualities that make him so valuable to the Habs (and I think he mostly does), then he could or would be just as valuable to another team, perhaps even more valuable in certain circumstances.

Anyway, if I were the GM, I wouldn't be as closed to the idea as most posters here are. I think it would be irresponsible management. That said, the best course might still be to build around him with marquee players better than Slovalev and Samsosoft. But how could you ever know if you refused to explore, let alone even consider an alternative?


It is pointless to discuss at this point based on the fact there's nothing anywhere that says he would waive his NTC, there's nothing that says management would want to move him and with his injury problems I can't see his value all that high. What other players that had NTC's did has nothing to do with this case. Until Koivu says he'll waive it, to me it's just a waste of time cause it's not going to happen. Forsberg was also on the worst team in the league and a UFA, big difference.

I really don't think you could get much of a return for Koivu, just as I don't think you could get much for Kovalev, based on the cap world we now live in, I think people really don't grasp this fact cause it's a new reality. If Gainey could find a deal that betters the team and Koivu would agree to it, then by all means go for it. I personally do not believe that Gainey could get us a better return.

As for loyality, this is what bugs me. The team is in a slump, so everyone sucks and all the sudden it's like all our players are crap. The fact is Koivu has been one of our best players every single year aside from 2 years where he missed over 80% of the season. That's 9 of 9 years wheres he's been one of the top 3 scorers, that's consistency. So imo he's not the problem, he's always one of our top scorers, ALWAYS. So that tells me that other players are the problem.

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02-19-2007, 08:42 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave View Post
And this year there's Datsyuk, Briere, Gomez and other UFAs. There's always the possibility that one of Richards or Lecavalier will be traded to help that team get some balanced depth. Can Montreal re-sign both Souray and Markov, carry Kovalev (and sadly, Samsonov) and Koivu and still land one of those guys? Unlikely, as that would be (conservatively) around 30 million for 6 players. I already know that you and others wouldn't be at all interested in the possibility of replacing Koivu with any of those guys. I'd consider it. I'd weigh the chances of having a so-called elite offensive center while re-signing our two key UFA D and adding something blue chip-ish against staying the course with the same team that struggles to score goals and seems to have a penchant for mid-season collapses. (Of course, if Datsyuk is a greedy choker and Briere is a whiny diver, then it just stops there.)
It's a bit too facile to suggest that we wouldn't consider it. I just don't think the consideration takes too many microseconds to reach an inescapable conclusion, that's all. I wouldn't take any of Datsyuk, Briere, or Gomez (at $6M+ in particular) ahead of Koivu. I do not believe at all that Richards or Lecavalier are going to be available, so I reject that out of hand. Can Montreal re-sign Souray and Markov? Yes, they can. Financially, anyway, although I don't know what the players themselves would have to say about that. At any rate, signing them is not in any way related to keeping or losing Koivu. Even if it did come to losing players to retain others, there are so many ahead of Koivu in line that it becomes an even more moot point. I tend to think that such conclusions are so obvious that it's pretty much a waste of time to dwell on them. And of course, many of those who are ready to dwell on them have motives concerning Koivu that are rather different than yours.
Quote:
Look, I respect your undying loyalty to Koivu. I suppose it's honourable to shun the new business-oriented success driven NHL, and prefer a more pastoral, watercolour time when teams would only truly win by winning with a team made up of players in whom the truly true fans believe.
While I would have used completely different adjectives (the cold businesslike approach seems more pastoral and watercolour to me, whereas the epic hero-loyalty version seems more vibrant and pre-Raphaelite than pastoral!). But anyway...
Quote:
Where we ultimately disagree (it seems ) is Koivu's value to the organization, or franchise rather the team. I think there's more to being a Hab fan than being a Koivu fan. He'll always be admired and respected for his time here, whenever that ends. And I'll always be one to consider trading him, no matter how convoluted my hypotheticals get, to see a better team on the ice, one that's more deserving of being part of the organization's tradition that's so much bigger than any one current player.
With so many other hypotheticals available and so many other ways to see a better team on the ice, I guess it just seems unnecessarily cold to look past all those other options and come down to the Koivu ones.

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02-19-2007, 08:47 PM
  #109
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Like I mentioned last week... I'll bring it up again to see if the opinions have changed after another 4-5 "games" our glorious have "played".

Every year these meltdowns happen, so where is the captain in all of this? He should be the one fixing up the issues on and off the ice, along with the coach, and I don't believe 4-5 coaches have been unable to do their part. Koivu simply isn't able to keep a room in a good state for a whole year. And he hasn't been leading the team on the ice either ever since his buddy got benched. Great example there.

We should trade him and rebuild around our young guys and not rely on him to carry us to the cup, because it simply won't happen.
Stop watching 110%, reading Le Journal de Montreal, and listening to CKAC. And leave politics and reporters with an agenda out of this.

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02-19-2007, 08:51 PM
  #110
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If my life depended on it, I would've bet that hf4 would have been the first to use pre-Raphaelite on this board. BG would've been in the top 3 though. Damn, hope I'm never on a game show.

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02-19-2007, 08:54 PM
  #111
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Yeah your darn right or get some players besides a couple of guys who hardly have 3 NHL seasons under there belts.

Koivu plays with Ryder and Higgins and a bit with Latendresse this year guys who have hardly established themselfs in the NHL yet at all.

What do you expect he can only carry so much of the load thats why this trade him away crap is getting old, give Koivu some wingers with tallent and he will put points on the board.
what trash has Sundin played with over the years , ANTRIPOV,KILGER, PONIKAROVSKY, WELWOOD, come on folks get real here , he hasn`t produced first line results , after 10 years, at some point you move in a different direction. Listen I am not knocking the guy , but at 33 at the start of next season , I think time is up.
Sundin at least has produced a point a gme pace his entire Leaf career, there are ony
a handful of carry me guys , Mats, Saku, etcc aren`t one of them , but these
20 GAME stretches every year of disappearing , without fault is crazy. He is what he is a 50-60 point , inconsistent player.

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02-19-2007, 09:03 PM
  #112
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The problem with Koivu is not TALENT, LEADERSHIP, MOTIVATION, or DEDICATION. His biggest problem is STAMINA and RESISTANCE.

He can't sustain a 82-game season without running out of gas midway through. Cancer takes a lot out of you, even though you are "recovered". Plus, he's a small guy who plays a big man's game, and he gives it all. It takes twice the energy for a small guy to play like that in comparison to someone who's 6-3. Get that in your head.

You can blame Koivu's lack of production or consistency, but saying he doesn't have enough skill, dedication and leadership just shows plain ignorance or a political agenda.

And I'm willing to kick the crap out of anyone (even if you're 6-6 ) to defend this point.

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02-19-2007, 09:03 PM
  #113
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what trash has Sundin played with over the years , ANTRIPOV,KILGER, PONIKAROVSKY, WELWOOD, come on folks get real here , he hasn`t produced first line results , after 10 years, at some point you move in a different direction. Listen I am not knocking the guy , but at 33 at the start of next season , I think time is up.
Sundin at least has produced a point a gme pace his entire Leaf career, there are ony
a handful of carry me guys , Mats, Saku, etcc aren`t one of them , but these
20 GAME stretches every year of disappearing , without fault is crazy. He is what he is a 50-60 point , inconsistent player.
Koivu is a playmaker first. I know some have a love affair with stats but stats are also to a degree a team stat in that if others can't score, and your a setup man, then your production won't be that great. Yet Koivu is ALWAYS among our top 3 scorers. At least 5 of the 9 seasons he's been either our top scorer or 2nd in scoring. What I dont get is why is he the problem? He's the one that is producing the most each year aside from 1 or 2 players every single year. With his health concerns, contract, I personally don't think you will get the return that would make it worth trading him. But then again as I've said it's all pointless cause I don't think it will happen and until Gainey pulls the tigger it's a moot point.

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02-19-2007, 09:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
It is pointless to discuss at this point based on the fact there's nothing anywhere that says he would waive his NTC, there's nothing that says management would want to move him and with his injury problems I can't see his value all that high. What other players that had NTC's did has nothing to do with this case. Until Koivu says he'll waive it, to me it's just a waste of time cause it's not going to happen. Forsberg was also on the worst team in the league and a UFA, big difference.

I really don't think you could get much of a return for Koivu, just as I don't think you could get much for Kovalev, based on the cap world we now live in, I think people really don't grasp this fact cause it's a new reality. If Gainey could find a deal that betters the team and Koivu would agree to it, then by all means go for it. I personally do not believe that Gainey could get us a better return.

As for loyality, this is what bugs me. The team is in a slump, so everyone sucks and all the sudden it's like all our players are crap. The fact is Koivu has been one of our best players every single year aside from 2 years where he missed over 80% of the season. That's 9 of 9 years wheres he's been one of the top 3 scorers, that's consistency. So imo he's not the problem, he's always one of our top scorers, ALWAYS. So that tells me that other players are the problem.
Couldn't agree with you more. It's not like he's being outscored by the rest of the team. It's the team's style. A playmaker with no scorers makes it pretty tough to score points consistently.

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02-19-2007, 09:15 PM
  #115
Blind Gardien
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If my life depended on it, I would've bet that hf4 would have been the first to use pre-Raphaelite on this board. BG would've been in the top 3 though. Damn, hope I'm never on a game show.
I would pay to watch you on a game show, mcphee.

That said, I sure hope Seb has your Littlest Hobo avatar ready soon. The imitation dog scares me.

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02-19-2007, 09:39 PM
  #116
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Like I mentioned last week... I'll bring it up again to see if the opinions have changed after another 4-5 "games" our glorious have "played".

Every year these meltdowns happen, so where is the captain in all of this? He should be the one fixing up the issues on and off the ice, along with the coach, and I don't believe 4-5 coaches have been unable to do their part. Koivu simply isn't able to keep a room in a good state for a whole year. And he hasn't been leading the team on the ice either ever since his buddy got benched. Great example there.

We should trade him and rebuild around our young guys and not rely on him to carry us to the cup, because it simply won't happen.

GOD Ppl like you really tick me off

6 years ago

2001

Montreal pickin 8th overall

the BEGINNING of our Rebuilding era...do you remember the team back then?

THIS IS THE FIRST YEAR WE LOOKED LIKE WE HAD A TEAM THAT COULD BE IN THE TOP HALF OF THE STANDINGS

TOP HALF THE FIRST YEAR IT LOOKED LIKE IT AND YOU WANT TO DO WHAT? TRADE OUR ONLY CONSISTENT GOOD F'NG PLAYER BECAUSE WE'VE SUCKED FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS?

we should trade you to the Portland Trailblazers...yah that's right another team and another friggin SPORT

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02-19-2007, 10:32 PM
  #117
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What injury is Koivu playing through?

Let's not kid ourselves. Koivu hasn't been playing well and it's because he's playing through some sort of injury. It's classic Koivu to suck it up like a beast and just play through the injury, and he's too proud to admit it.

What could it be? I wonder if we'll find out at the end of the season, like usual, that he had a broken neck or his spinal cord was ruptured or something.

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02-19-2007, 10:36 PM
  #118
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Lost of his hairs ? ouch ! really painful

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02-19-2007, 10:37 PM
  #119
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Our players always seem to have excuses when they're playing badly don't they? Why is that?

Can't we just accept that our players are bad?

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02-19-2007, 10:39 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Let's not kid ourselves. Koivu hasn't been playing well and it's because he's playing through some sort of injury. It's classic Koivu to suck it up like a beast and just play through the injury, and he's too proud to admit it.

What could it be? I wonder if we'll find out at the end of the season, like usual, that he had a broken neck or his spinal cord was ruptured or something.
I haven't heard any information on any new injuries, but I've been wondering lately if he's been having problems with his past eye injury.

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02-19-2007, 10:40 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Our players always seem to have excuses when they're playing badly don't they? Why is that?

Can't we just accept that our players are bad?
We're Habs fans....our players aren't bad.

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02-19-2007, 10:40 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Our players always seem to have excuses when they're playing badly don't they? Why is that?

Can't we just accept that our players are bad?
This just in.. Kovalev has a chronic elbow pain that only hurts in the regular season.

In other news, Samsonov is playing with a dislocated shoulder, thus prohibiting him from shooting.

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02-19-2007, 10:40 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Our players always seem to have excuses when they're playing badly don't they? Why is that?

Can't we just accept that our players are bad?
Because Koivu was playing like a God earlier in the season, carrying the team on his back and turning Higgins and Latendresse into scoring machines. Players don't just spntaneously turn bad, something has to happen.

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02-19-2007, 10:41 PM
  #124
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How come ever other Hab can suck, but Koivu has to have an injury? Enough already, he is a big boy and needs to step up, no questions, no excuses...just play.

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02-19-2007, 10:41 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
This just in.. Kovalev has a chronic elbow pain that only hurts in the regular season.

In other news, Samsonov is playing with a dislocated shoulder, thus prohibiting him from shooting.
Hahaha....thanks for the update RedScull.

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