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Old
02-19-2007, 08:23 AM
  #51
Ross MacLochness
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Bonk, Johnson and the LW of the week are NOT PASSIVE, and the result is Excellent, not ********.

But if you want to keep Plekanec and Koivu and get a TOP Centre, then we should keep Bonk over Lapierre. Radek Bonk or a player just like him is a NECESSARY part of a winning team.
Are you kidding me? Do watch our fowards play? EVERY line is passive. I've never seen a less agressive and turnover-forcing team in my life. Higinns-Koivu-Ryder plays a passive 1-2-2 forecheck look at their plus minus they last 2 months. Same for Samsonov-Plek-Kovalev and they were a disaster. It's a joke. We never force the play, the other team has absolutely no problem gaining the red-line and more with speed because of the system we play.

Our "system" relies on our goalies more than anything else and it is so easy to play against. Coaches of teams like Ottawa, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Buffalo, Toronto that play a 2-1-2 just SALIVATE at the thought of playing Montreal.

A player like Radek Bonk NECESSARY part of a winning team? Ok, I'm done with this discussion.
I mean I sort of like what Radek brings and he's definitely got so good qualities that are underrated on these boards but give me a break.

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02-19-2007, 08:24 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
That's pretty much how I see it. Of course, I'm not totally against bringing either one of them back but I'm also not willing to overpay in order to keep them here.
Overpay? No. But what SHOULD they be paid?

Bonk and Johnson are 10% of your team. Team payroll over $45M next year.

If you can pay them around $4M combined, and they OUTSCORE head-to-head the opponents' top two guys who are paid, say, $8.5M combined, are we winning the New NHL or what?

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02-19-2007, 08:31 AM
  #53
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Well said.

Therefore, if you think the Habs are a team that should be looking to make a push in the 2007-2008 playoffs, you should be pushing to KEEP these two guys!
Yes...however, I don't think overpaying for either of them helps in doing that either. Does Bonk want to resign for 1 year at around 2mil/yr? Does Johnson want to resign for 1 or 2 years at around 2mil/yr as well?

There's no point in committing long term deals to either of these guys...let's not kid ourselves, both of these players are average and with diminishing skills, they look great now in their roles, but you have to be able to project down the road.

It's kind of like Bouillon, alot of people were pushing for the Habs to re-sign him in the offseason as he was coming off a career year in numbers all across the boards, is anyone happy that he's signed for another 2.5 years now? I know i'm not and I never was...

Both Bonk and Johnson are solid players, don't get me wrong, but in both cases their best days are behind them, no need to committ long term.

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02-19-2007, 08:31 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Slip Slidin' Slim View Post
Are you kidding me? Do watch our fowards play? EVERY line is passive. I've never seen a less agressive and turnover-forcing team in my life. Higinns-Koivu-Ryder plays a passive 1-2-2 forecheck look at their plus minus they last 2 months. Same for Samsonov-Plek-Kovalev and they were a disaster. It's a joke. We never force the play, the other team has absolutely no problem gaining the red-line and more with speed because of the system we play.
The two offensive lines have not done their job, agreed.

Quote:
Our "system" relies on our goalies more than anything else and it is so easy to play against. Coaches of teams like Ottawa, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Buffalo, Toronto that play a 2-1-2 just SALIVATE at the thought of playing Montreal..
This may be true and so we should look to change up the offence, but the checking line has been a SUCCESS. What part of +15 for Johnson don't you understand??

Quote:
A player like Radek Bonk NECESSARY part of a winning team? Ok, I'm done with this discussion.
Winning teams have to have some forwards with size, defensive awareness and face-off skills. Like I said, Radek Bonk or someone like him.

I'll be happy if you don't wish to discuss further.

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02-19-2007, 08:35 AM
  #55
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IMO, some Habs fans have been so accustomed to mediocrity over the last few years, that they don't expect more from their players.

We have to become a harder team to play against, and while Bonk and Johnson are sound defensively, neither of them make the opposition pay physically. We need more Lapierre's and Bégin who can play a 3rd line role.

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02-19-2007, 08:38 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
What part of +15 for Johnson don't you understand??


2003-04: Dags (+15)- Ribeiro (+15)- Ryder (+10)


417:
Quote:
IMO, some Habs fans have been so accustomed to mediocrity over the last few years, that they don't expect more from their players.
Bingo.

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02-19-2007, 08:47 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
IMO, some Habs fans have been so accustomed to mediocrity over the last few years, that they don't expect more from their players.

We have to become a harder team to play against, and while Bonk and Johnson are sound defensively, neither of them make the opposition pay physically. We need more Lapierre's and Bégin who can play a 3rd line role.
Begin can play a third line role next to Bonk and Johnson, and Lapierre has his place as the 4th line centre.

We need to decide which of Koivu or Plekanec is our long-term 2nd line centre, and we need to go get a first line centre.

Get Latendresse onto one of the top two lines, along with Higgins, and by all means start playing a more aggressive system that is harder for opponents to play against.

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02-19-2007, 08:52 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Begin can play a third line role next to Bonk and Johnson, and Lapierre has his place as the 4th line centre.

We need to decide which of Koivu or Plekanec is our long-term 2nd line centre, and we need to go get a first line centre.

Get Latendresse onto one of the top two lines, along with Higgins, and by all means start playing a more aggressive system that is harder for opponents to play against.
Bégin 'can' play a 3rd line role in limited minutes, but ultimately, you want a guy like that playing on your 4th line IMO.

Lapierre is missing two elements before he becomes a 3rd line player

1. He needs to get stronger
2. He needs to refine his defensive game, good thing about it is it's not willingless that's the problem with him, it's more defensive awareness and knowing where to be defensively (+ his strength, or lack their of, comes into play defensively often)

As for Koivu and Plekanec, I agree...i'm not sure how Montreal is going to be able to compete with both of them more suited to scoring roles, on the same team, add to that you've got Grabovski another year away from being NHL ready

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02-19-2007, 08:54 AM
  #59
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IMO. Plekanec and Bonk are mutually exclusive players on the team as they essentially fill the same role.

If we can get a big centre to be our 1st/2nd liner, then let Bonk walk and have the very cap friendly Pleks fill in on the 3rd line.


If we can't get a big centre... we have to keep Bonk.

We cannot be a team with all our centres being under 5'11''.. That is why Bonk is so important right now..

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02-19-2007, 08:55 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Slip Slidin' Slim View Post
2003-04: Dags (+15)- Ribeiro (+15)- Ryder (+10)
Looks like you haven't quit discussing this, after all.

What you showed above is that those 2nd/4th line players in 2003-2004, playing against other 2nd/4th lines, generally, had a good year.

Unfortunately, two of them could not keep it up.

Bonk and Johnson, on the other hand, have had good NHL careers, and this year is not a fluke. They are MUCH BETTER than Juneau and Dackell were for us.

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02-19-2007, 08:59 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
IMO. Plekanec and Bonk are mutually exclusive players on the team as they essentially fill the same role.

If we can get a big centre to be our 1st/2nd liner, then let Bonk walk and have the very cap friendly Pleks fill in on the 3rd line.


If we can't get a big centre... we have to keep Bonk.

We cannot be a team with all our centres being under 5'11''.. That is why Bonk is so important right now..
You contradicted yourself. Bonk and Plekanec are not mutually exclusive because as you yourself said, they DO NOT FILL THE SAME ROLE. Plekenec cannot take on the big centremen of opposing teams. Bonk and Plekanec are both centremen, but it is Koivu and Plekanec that fill the same role.

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02-19-2007, 09:03 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
You contradicted yourself. Bonk and Plekanec are not mutually exclusive because as you yourself said, they DO NOT FILL THE SAME ROLE. Plekenec cannot take on the big centremen of opposing teams. Bonk and Plekanec are both centremen, but it is Koivu and Plekanec that fill the same role.
Plekanec can play bigger centres rather well. (against Staal in the playoffs last year for example).. and he does so regularly.

What I mean is that neither Bonk nor Plekanec have the offensive talent and production to be our 2nd/1st line centres.

Koivu does. We need another one like him to be able to have:

Centre X
Koivu
Plekanec or Bonk
Lapierre


If Centre X is a big guy... we'll be able to manage with Pleks as our third liner.

If Centre X isn't... then we need Bonk.

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02-19-2007, 09:06 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
Plekanec can play bigger centres rather well. (against Staal in the playoffs last year for example).. and he does so regularly.

What I mean is that neither Bonk nor Plekanec have the offensive talent and production to be our 2nd/1st line centres.

Koivu does. We need another one like him to be able to have:

Centre X
Koivu
Plekanec or Bonk
Lapierre


If Centre X is a big guy... we'll be able to manage with Pleks as our third liner.

If Centre X isn't... then we need Bonk.
I think Plekanec surprises alot of opponents with his strenght and tenacity, he's alot stronger than he looks and has the smarts to back it up.

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02-19-2007, 09:17 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
Plekanec can play bigger centres rather well. (against Staal in the playoffs last year for example).. and he does so regularly.

What I mean is that neither Bonk nor Plekanec have the offensive talent and production to be our 2nd/1st line centres.

Koivu does. We need another one like him to be able to have:

Centre X
Koivu
Plekanec or Bonk
Lapierre


If Centre X is a big guy... we'll be able to manage with Pleks as our third liner.

If Centre X isn't... then we need Bonk.
It sounds like you have already decided that Koivu is a better 2nd line centre than Plekanec. Maybe he is a bit better, right now, but he costs $4M MORE! That alone might preclude us having enough space to go get the FIRST line centre we need.

Now, you are saying we can save $1M in 07-08 by putting RFA Pleks on the 3rd line at say $1M, instead of re-signing Bonk at say $2M, and hoping Pleks can handle the really big centremen like Sundin or Lecavalier. Maybe, but I'd rather spend an extra $3M on my first line centre and live with the improving Plekanec as #2.

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02-19-2007, 09:19 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Seb_Rafter View Post
Plekanec - Chipchura - Johnson?!?

I like Bonk, but I think we can have better.
that's an awesome line, i would live with Pleckanek-Chipchura-Perezhogin too

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02-19-2007, 09:54 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Slip Slidin' Slim View Post
Once again we have an all-defence-checking 3rd line and the team has been a complete failure.

Re-sign Johnson, let Bonk go. Get a 1st line center, 3 scoring lines, energy 4th line is how it's gotta be done.
That 3rd line has been pretty amazing. The problem is not them....if the 2nd and 1st line had actualy clicked all year long everything would be perfect. The Bonk line is definelty not an all-defence-checking line I dont know what team you have watched play this year but there is absolutly no comparing lets say the Juneau line with the Bonk line.

When the Bonk line is playing well the play stays in the opposition's zone.

It wouldnt be an issue if we had an elite center.

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02-19-2007, 10:13 AM
  #67
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That 3rd line has been pretty amazing. The problem is not them....if the 2nd and 1st line had actualy clicked all year long everything would be perfect. The Bonk line is definelty not an all-defence-checking line I dont know what team you have watched play this year but there is absolutly no comparing lets say the Juneau line with the Bonk line.

When the Bonk line is playing well the play stays in the opposition's zone.

It wouldnt be an issue if we had an elite center
That's exactly what I said in post 39.

The Bonk line has been good. Not AMAZING. Just good. If we were to get an elite center I'd rather have Plekanec on the 3rd scoring line over Bonk. But that's just me.

If Bonk was willing to take a massive pay cut I'd take him back on the 4th line, maybe Lapierre on wing? Anyway I don't think Bob has any plans for Bonk, but we'll see.

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02-19-2007, 06:40 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Slip Slidin' Slim View Post
That's exactly what I said in post 39.

The Bonk line has been good. Not AMAZING. Just good. If we were to get an elite center I'd rather have Plekanec on the 3rd scoring line over Bonk. But that's just me.

If Bonk was willing to take a massive pay cut I'd take him back on the 4th line, maybe Lapierre on wing? Anyway I don't think Bob has any plans for Bonk, but we'll see.
Few teams have three "scoring" lines.

Even the Habs teams of the 70s had:
1. Lafleur-Shutt line
2. Cournoyer's line
3. A line of Jarvis-Gainey-xxxxx
4. A line of Risebrough-Tremblay-Lambert

That's two scoring lines, one defensive line, one energy line.

They scored almost 400 goals one year, but still had a shutdown line.

Bonk at around $2M to outscore an opponent making $5M is a great asset.

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02-19-2007, 07:10 PM
  #69
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Bonk is gone IMO. Johnson may return, but I'm not so sure.

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02-20-2007, 03:14 AM
  #70
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For those who dont want bonk back, who is this center either in our system or on the UFA market thats going to chip in with some offense to help out plekanec and koivu?

I've lost faith in the UFA market because there seems to be an unwillingness for players to sign in montreal. And I dont see an answer from the farm as of right now.... maybe grabovski?

Yeah, you dont necessarily need a shutdown line in the NHL but I would like to hear some potential replacements for radek....

Johnson has played well but I think, as a winger, that he can be replaced as that appears to be a strength within the organization.

Its a very tough situation with the top end guys not getting it done.

My personal opinion is that bonk is part of the solution, not part of the problem. +/- is a shady stat but when you consider that most of the time bonk's line is out there is against the #1 line, that's saying something. They are a bright light in 5 on 5 play in an otherwise dimsal even strength team... these guys aren't padding their stats on the PP nor are they getting much of an oppurtunity to do so... all their point totals are coming even strength and usually off the opposing team's #1 line.


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02-20-2007, 08:12 AM
  #71
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For those who dont want bonk back, who is this center either in our system or on the UFA market thats going to chip in with some offense to help out plekanec and koivu?

I've lost faith in the UFA market because there seems to be an unwillingness for players to sign in montreal. And I dont see an answer from the farm as of right now.... maybe grabovski?

Yeah, you dont necessarily need a shutdown line in the NHL but I would like to hear some potential replacements for radek....

Johnson has played well but I think, as a winger, that he can be replaced as that appears to be a strength within the organization.

Its a very tough situation with the top end guys not getting it done.

My personal opinion is that bonk is part of the solution, not part of the problem. +/- is a shady stat but when you consider that most of the time bonk's line is out there is against the #1 line, that's saying something. They are a bright light in 5 on 5 play in an otherwise dimsal even strength team... these guys aren't padding their stats on the PP nor are they getting much of an oppurtunity to do so... all their point totals are coming even strength and usually off the opposing team's #1 line.
Bonk is is in a contract year, after the worse year of his career last year, he's not getting any younger, he's never been that fast anyways.

Committing another 2 or 3 years to Bonk spells disaster

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02-20-2007, 08:23 AM
  #72
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Bonk is is in a contract year, after the worse year of his career last year, he's not getting any younger, he's never been that fast anyways.

Committing another 2 or 3 years to Bonk spells disaster
I'd offer Bonk a 2 year deal for 3.8 millon.



Bonk being the same cap hit as Bouillon seems fair...

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02-20-2007, 10:03 AM
  #73
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I'd offer Bonk a 2 year deal for 3.8 millon.

Bonk being the same cap hit as Bouillon seems fair...
I think you lose them automatically if you don't at least match their current salaries. They've performed well. If they're good enough to pay that money to this year, at those salaries, why should they accept less next year?

I'd budget $5M for both of them combined, allowing for minor raises to both. I wouldn't break the bank for them, mind you... if somebody else offered one of them $3M, I wouldn't think of matching. But $5M is fair, roughly $2.5M each. I imagine Johnson will be the most difficult to retain, as he probably wants to go somewhere where he'll get more of a chance on offense again, though.

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02-20-2007, 10:17 AM
  #74
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I can's see Johnson making more than 2 million.

I can't see Bonk making more than 2.5 million.





I'd rather have a 5 million dollar centre (Like Arnott or Drury) and drop Plekanec to the 3rd line that putting
6+ million dollars in my third line.


If we truly want that "elite talent gamebraker" we've been looking for for the last 10 years, then our 3rd and 4th line have to cost us less than 8 million dollars for the 6 players.


I like Bonk, and I like Johnson.

Imo, Bonk should have been our 2nd line centre all year, having Kovalev as his winger... But Carbonneau didn't see it that way.

But if we're not gonna play Bonk stricly as a shutdown guy, then we can't be pying him more than 2.5 million. That money should be reserved for our offensive guys for the simple fact that you can find defensively sound players for less.

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02-20-2007, 01:51 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Bonk is is in a contract year, after the worse year of his career last year, he's not getting any younger, he's never been that fast anyways.

Committing another 2 or 3 years to Bonk spells disaster
two ways to think about that....

a) he's only playing well due to a contract year

b) it took the habs and bonk some time find the right fit...while bonk adjusted to being traded for the first time in his career and not playing with the high level talent that he's used to... I think bonk has continued playing well since the playoff push started last season...

2 year deal would be nice for the organization IMO but I dont know what bonk thinks about that.

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