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02-20-2007, 06:11 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CdnCzeSniper96 View Post
I have a strong feeling that if he IS traded Bertuzzi will be going to Detroit with something and Hudler+ will be coming back. I've had that feeling for a while and MacKenzie brought up Hudler's name for the first time in his article. Great job from Martin though, asking price to be incredibly high in asking for Perry and Hudler is a good sign. Hopefully he doesn't overplay his hand and end up keeping everyone and getting no assets but asking for Perry and Hudler to start out is what you want to be doing.
I agree, if Bertuzzi was healthy now, we could have Hudler. But Detroit won't give up a young player like that for an injured Bert. Stinks.

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02-20-2007, 06:12 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
to save some searching, here's the link (it's all about the panthers, btw): http://www.tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/bob_mckenzie/



that's a little scary, no? he's not clear if it's a roster player plus a conditional pick or just a conditional pick. just a conditional pick, even a 1st (esp., detroit's) would not seem like a great return.
oh really? i would have never known..


come on, thats a frickin HORRIBLE return

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02-20-2007, 10:13 PM
  #28
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Another fetid pile of guano from ESPN. Just go to the part where Burnside talks about Martin. What a jerk.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...ott&id=2772900

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02-20-2007, 10:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Another fetid pile of guano from ESPN. Just go to the part where Burnside talks about Martin. What a jerk.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...ott&id=2772900
Burnside's a complete imbecil. He mocks JM for saying what many Panthers fans have wanted to hear, even though his is a reasonable position, given that you're talking of winning the ultimate prize.

"I think we're in a kind of a unique situation," Martin said. "When you have certain players that bring a certain dimension for a team that's knocking on the door of winning a Cup, I feel it's not draft picks, it's somebody else. Maybe a younger player that will be able to help our organization for many years."

I especially like the "not draft picks" part. I think JM will come through in the end.

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02-20-2007, 11:08 PM
  #30
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"Whatever"? "They're done like dinner"? My god, why is there is such a hate-on for the Panthers on that site? What is wrong with ESPN and this guy?

You wouldn't see them talk this way about the Coyotes or Penguins, no sir. Amazing. Martin speaks his mind and wants to support the team. He doesn't want to make useless trades if no one wants to give us something we can use. Plus much as I think we don't have a chance, he isn't going to give up on the playoffs and neither should the players either.

The sheer disrespect shown to him and this organization is unbelievable. Once again, ESPN knows or cares nothing about hockey, only their own personal bias.

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Old
02-21-2007, 07:32 AM
  #31
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How is Burke so pissed about Martin wanting Perry for Bertuzzi? Granted Bert's been injured, but it's not like he's asking for him in a trade for Gratton or Gelinas. He's still Todd Bertuzzi and is still a monster. We still gave up Luongo for him, I don't see how that's too much. Perry's got tremendous upside and is very young, but I don't think asking for too much, especially as a first request. They gave up a lot to get Pronger, granted he's Pronger, but they aren't asking for all that much I don't think.

Spectors think Martin may be making a rookie GM mistake in asking for too much for players, but I disagree. Try to get what you can, why go in kicking dust and believing you can't get much for them?

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02-21-2007, 07:42 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
How is Burke so pissed about Martin wanting Perry for Bertuzzi? Granted Bert's been injured, but it's not like he's asking for him in a trade for Gratton or Gelinas. He's still Todd Bertuzzi and is still a monster. We still gave up Luongo for him, I don't see how that's too much. Perry's got tremendous upside and is very young, but I don't think asking for too much, especially as a first request. They gave up a lot to get Pronger, granted he's Pronger, but they aren't asking for all that much I don't think.

Spectors think Martin may be making a rookie GM mistake in asking for too much for players, but I disagree. Try to get what you can, why go in kicking dust and believing you can't get much for them?
Seriously, for once it's nice to have a guy that basically is saying "You're not screwing over my team, you want my stuff, it's gonna cost you." I mean he's literally saying that he wants young roster players, not this oh gee crappy little late round pick stuff that amounts to nothing. Our scouts suck, we need roster players

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02-21-2007, 08:04 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
Seriously, for once it's nice to have a guy that basically is saying "You're not screwing over my team, you want my stuff, it's gonna cost you." I mean he's literally saying that he wants young roster players, not this oh gee crappy little late round pick stuff that amounts to nothing. Our scouts suck, we need roster players
Exactly. A lot of our prospects aren't all that great and we're looking to be better now, not 4 or 5 years from now. So far, I think martin is doing a great job and I really like his patience and his making sure we don't get jobbed in a trade.

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02-21-2007, 08:12 AM
  #34
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It's all about supply and demand. If we are the ones not making the playoffs and if we have the assets, and another team who is making the playoffs and needs our assets to help improve their chances, hmmmm ... seems to me that we are the ones in the position to make demands.

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02-21-2007, 08:22 AM
  #35
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What's even more important is that now more than ever, way more teams are biding for the final playoff spots and so few teams are clear sellers by Tuesday. I mean there may only be 6 or 7 teams not within striking distance of the playoffs, considering we have about a month and a half yet to play. Ball is definitely in our court, the same rumors won't go away and these players will not be cheap. I'm sick of getting fleeced, it's time to actually win some trades!

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02-21-2007, 08:30 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
I'm sick of getting fleeced, it's time to actually win some trades!
I'm usually not one to wish away time but I'll be glad when the deadline has come and gone. I am tired of all of the ridiculous and ubiquitous trade proposals. Give us Horton and Roberts for a bag of pucks ... you don't need a new goaltender - you have auld he was great last year in Vancouver ... don't you silly people realize you're not making the playoffs so in the spirit of generosity please send us, a better team that will make the playoffs Olesz, Bouwmeester and Belfour ... blah blah blah

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02-21-2007, 08:32 AM
  #37
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Im very happy with Martin, not feeding into the crap these other GMs want to give us, a conditional pick for bertuzzi? oh yeah done deal!! YEAH RIGHT; Im so happy Martin isnt taking their ****, if you want our boys, PAY UP you snobs, if you dont want to, thats fine, they can gladly stay with us.

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02-21-2007, 01:35 PM
  #38
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I think this is the right thread for this and I haven't seen it posted yet:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectors
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceGarrioch
It's believed many GMs interested in making trades with the Florida Panthers aren't happy with GM Jacques Martin for his high asking prices. The Anaheim Ducks are believed interested in Todd Bertuzzi but they're not about to part with Corey Perry. The Senators are believed interested in Gary Roberts and Martin Gelinas, but they don't want to part with Patrick Eaves or Antoine Vermette for Roberts.
Spector's Note: Martin may be making a rookie mistake by seeking ridiculously high prices for these guys. If he hopes to move any of them, he'll have to drop those prices.
http://spectorshockey.tripod.com/spe...e_rumours.html

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02-21-2007, 01:58 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I think this is the right thread for this and I haven't seen it posted yet:



http://spectorshockey.tripod.com/spe...e_rumours.html

We had heard this before.

Martin feels that if people don't want to pay, he'll just hold on to the assets. I agree with him. So do a lot of people around here. The condescending attitude from the media in regards to his principled stand stems from the attitude that the Panthers exist merely as a farm team for the rest of the NHL.

The Panthers and their long suffering fans don't owe a thing to Spector, Burnside or the Canadian teams & their fans. If they want an edge they'll pay. If not, that's ok. It's not our duty to help out.

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02-21-2007, 02:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
We had heard this before.

Martin feels that if people don't want to pay, he'll just hold on to the assets. I agree with him. So do a lot of people around here. The condescending attitude from the media in regards to his principled stand stems from the attitude that the Panthers exist merely as a farm team for the rest of the NHL.

The Panthers and their long suffering fans don't owe a thing to Spector, Burnside or the Canadian teams & their fans. If they want an edge they'll pay. If not, that's ok. It's not our duty to help out.
I agree partially, but Martin should still trade Roberts. Roberts value will never be higher than it is now. Roberts next year i really can't see doing much, so it would be wise to trade him. Of course Martin should try and make teams overpay, but if he can't, then he should be willing to deal Roberts anyway.

I'd be shocked if Bertuzzi would be able to garner much and thus i don't see him being traded.

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Old
02-21-2007, 02:22 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
We had heard this before.

Martin feels that if people don't want to pay, he'll just hold on to the assets. I agree with him. So do a lot of people around here. The condescending attitude from the media in regards to his principled stand stems from the attitude that the Panthers exist merely as a farm team for the rest of the NHL.

The Panthers and their long suffering fans don't owe a thing to Spector, Burnside or the Canadian teams & their fans. If they want an edge they'll pay. If not, that's ok. It's not our duty to help out.
Wow, this is one of the best posts I've read in a long time, major kudos ATF. I bolded my favorite parts. I am so sick of the disrespect that ESPN, TSN, and their ilk show to this team, not to mention that teams with an even worse management (i.e. Coyotes) get a free pass at times, especially on ESPN.

We are not the league's doormat or farm team. We will not give up any asset just for the sake of getting rid of them. There is no reason to make a trade unless it IMPROVES the team. We have no desire to improve other teams, it's not like we want them to win the cup before we do. It's the same reason the Flyers did that particular trade with Forsberg, because it improved their team and gave them good value. They could have traded him at any time, but were patient and got rewarded for it.

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02-21-2007, 02:53 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
There is no reason to make a trade unless it IMPROVES the team. We have no desire to improve other teams,
I wholeheartedly believe in the obviousness of the philosophy, but I don't see the actual names bandied about reflecting that.

Eaves and Vermette, who are producing better with less ice time on lower lines with virtually no PP time and have a lot more defensive responsibilities for Roberts would make us worse today... let alone tomorrow. Also, I think the goal will be to add a forward to bump Schubert out of the forward lineup... not simply replace one part.

If Bertuzzi could come back 100%, he certainly would have more of an impact than Perry. But if there are doubts, than the Ducks would just be better off with Perry instead. Either way, it's difficult to subtract from a playoff roster... if you're hoping to play 40-50 more games. You'll incur injuries and you won't be able to add quality players to your lineup.

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02-21-2007, 03:00 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I wholeheartedly believe in the obviousness of the philosophy, but I don't see the actual names bandied about reflecting that.

Eaves and Vermette, who are producing better with less ice time on lower lines with virtually no PP time and have a lot more defensive responsibilities for Roberts would make us worse today... let alone tomorrow. Also, I think the goal will be to add a forward to bump Schubert out of the forward lineup... not simply replace one part.

If Bertuzzi could come back 100%, he certainly would have more of an impact than Perry. But if there are doubts, than the Ducks would just be better off with Perry instead. Either way, it's difficult to subtract from a playoff roster... if you're hoping to play 40-50 more games. You'll incur injuries and you won't be able to add quality players to your lineup.
That's why a happy medium must be found. I mean Bob McKenzie claims we'll just trade Bertuzzi for a conditional draft pick. That's definitely the other side of the spectrum and I argue that is far too low a payment. We all know he's worth more than that, maybe not Perry but you have to start high and find out how much a team is willing to pay. A conditional pick is worse than just keeping Bertuzzi in my mind.

Who knows what Roberts will go for, I find that rumor for Biron a little more realistic. Martin wants to find out the maximum he can get, no reason to low ball them. You find the best thing possible and take it, or if all are unreasonable, stay pat.

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02-21-2007, 03:10 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
I wholeheartedly believe in the obviousness of the philosophy, but I don't see the actual names bandied about reflecting that.

Eaves and Vermette, who are producing better with less ice time on lower lines with virtually no PP time and have a lot more defensive responsibilities for Roberts would make us worse today... let alone tomorrow. Also, I think the goal will be to add a forward to bump Schubert out of the forward lineup... not simply replace one part.

If Bertuzzi could come back 100%, he certainly would have more of an impact than Perry. But if there are doubts, than the Ducks would just be better off with Perry instead. Either way, it's difficult to subtract from a playoff roster... if you're hoping to play 40-50 more games. You'll incur injuries and you won't be able to add quality players to your lineup.
It seems other teams want trades as "can't lose" scenarios. It doesn't work like that. Every trade should have a risk, and the risk will be greater for the team wanting the trade. I don't think Martin is calling GM's and asking for players. They call him. He gives them his price. They can take it, or pass. Having a little temper tantrum (Mr. Burke) just makes you look childish.

I am a season ticket holder. If trading Roberts, Gelinas, Belfour, etc. doesn't make this franchise stronger then I don't want those trades to happen. I don't give a rat's fanny that these players can help put a Canadian team over the top. I'd rather see them play the spoiler role for the rest of the season. Martin's responsibility is to his owner and his customers (i.e. folks like me). His responsibility does not include making another team's fans excited about a trade deadline pickup. His responsibility does not include increasing the veteran talent pool of the NHL playoffs. Fortunately, Martin seems to understand that.

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02-21-2007, 03:27 PM
  #45
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That's why a happy medium must be found.
Perry .... conditional draft pick
Well, the happy medium is obviously non-NHL prospects. You can't convince a playoff team to pull 21-22 year old players off of 2nd and 3rd line roles and claim you're helping them all that much. Prospects ready to challenge for a roster spot this fall are better targets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog
It seems other teams want trades as "can't lose" scenarios. It doesn't work like that. Every trade should have a risk, and the risk will be greater for the team wanting the trade.

I am a season ticket holder. If trading Roberts, Gelinas, Belfour, etc. doesn't make this franchise stronger then I don't want those trades to happen. I don't give a rat's fanny that these players can help put a Canadian team over the top. I'd rather see them play the spoiler role for the rest of the season. Martin's responsibility is to his owner and his customers (i.e. folks like me). His responsibility does not include making another team's fans excited about a trade deadline pickup. His responsibility does not include increasing the veteran talent pool of the NHL playoffs. Fortunately, Martin seems to understand that.
The Ottawa rumours aren't risk... they're guarenteed losers.
A trade deadline deal is supposed to be long term gain for the non-playoff team and short term gain for the playoff team. What you personally seem to be advocating is both long term and short terms gain for the Panthers, while the playoff team gets worse.

I'm not sure I understand your priority here. You think that if Martin can't get better players than the ones he's offering, who are also 15 years younger... than you'd rather have them go down with the ship this year and risk them walking away for nothing? Does that really make Florida a better team next season? Should that enter into Martin's mind at all?

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02-21-2007, 03:53 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Well, the happy medium is obviously non-NHL prospects. You can't convince a playoff team to pull 21-22 year old players off of 2nd and 3rd line roles and claim you're helping them all that much. Prospects ready to challenge for a roster spot this fall are better targets.

The Ottawa rumours aren't risk... they're guarenteed losers.
A trade deadline deal is supposed to be long term gain for the non-playoff team and short term gain for the playoff team. What you personally seem to be advocating is both long term and short terms gain for the Panthers, while the playoff team gets worse.

I'm not sure I understand your priority here. You think that if Martin can't get better players than the ones he's offering, who are also 15 years younger... than you'd rather have them go down with the ship this year and risk them walking away for nothing? Does that really make Florida a better team next season? Should that enter into Martin's mind at all?
i would generally agree with your position. i'm happy with martin starting high but at some point, he probably will make a deal. with roberts and gelinas, i could imagine their value being about the same next year, not likely any higher, and as much as i like them, i'm not sure having them here for another year helps us get to where we need to go faster. bert's another story.

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02-21-2007, 03:57 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Well, the happy medium is obviously non-NHL prospects. You can't convince a playoff team to pull 21-22 year old players off of 2nd and 3rd line roles and claim you're helping them all that much. Prospects ready to challenge for a roster spot this fall are better targets.

The Ottawa rumours aren't risk... they're guarenteed losers.
A trade deadline deal is supposed to be long term gain for the non-playoff team and short term gain for the playoff team. What you personally seem to be advocating is both long term and short terms gain for the Panthers, while the playoff team gets worse.


I'm not sure I understand your priority here. You think that if Martin can't get better players than the ones he's offering, who are also 15 years younger... than you'd rather have them go down with the ship this year and risk them walking away for nothing? Does that really make Florida a better team next season? Should that enter into Martin's mind at all?
Addressing the bold faced points:

1. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I agree that NHL ready prospects are desirable. Other teams fans & the media are urging Florida to accept mid round picks for the vets (no thanks) and NHL ready prospects for Horton & Jokinen (a big no thanks). If they don't like the price, they don't have to pay. If you think our players have such little value, why are you asking for them? That's what Martin is thinking. I happen to agree.

2. Ottawa has plenty of young talented players. They lack veteran backbone. If they want it, it can be had for a price. If they don't, that's OK too.

3. My priority is maximizing my entertainment dollar. If a trade doesn't excite me I'd rather watch the vets play. Martin's responsibility is to win now & entertain the fans. If a trade makes the team better he needs to take it. He does not need to take a trade that MAY make our team better but WILL make another team better.

4. Draft picks don't make the team better next year. Drafting 18 year olds is a crap shoot. I'd rather see this team knock a team or two out of the playoffs this year than pick up a few "lottery ticket" third, fourth & fifth round picks that probably won't pan out.

You may think my position is unreasonable. Don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly don't care what you or Burnside or Spector or Burke think. I am glad that Martin is taking a stand. It will pay off in the end, one way or another.

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02-21-2007, 04:11 PM
  #48
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what playoff team GMs dont realize is , its not our job as sellers , to give u something good and take ur scarps / question mark prospects/ late round picks . TD is not christmas for buyers , and as sellers we sure arent santa clauses ( anymore). Buyers have to realize trades are suppose to be risk , its a high risk / high reward situation . If buyers want to win the cup , they will risk a good player to do it , if not well then they wont get anything good . Panthers as sellers arent poor straving kids , that will just eat any thing u throw our way . After many years of ****** deals at TD for us , i am one proud we have someone with a brain at the Helm.

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02-21-2007, 04:39 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Addressing the bold faced points:

1. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I agree that NHL ready prospects are desirable. Other teams fans & the media are urging Florida to accept mid round picks for the vets (no thanks) and NHL ready prospects for Horton & Jokinen (a big no thanks). If they don't like the price, they don't have to pay. If you think our players have such little value, why are you asking for them? That's what Martin is thinking. I happen to agree.

2. Ottawa has plenty of young talented players. They lack veteran backbone. If they want it, it can be had for a price. If they don't, that's OK too.

3. My priority is maximizing my entertainment dollar. If a trade doesn't excite me I'd rather watch the vets play. Martin's responsibility is to win now & entertain the fans. If a trade makes the team better he needs to take it. He does not need to take a trade that MAY make our team better but WILL make another team better.

4. Draft picks don't make the team better next year. Drafting 18 year olds is a crap shoot. I'd rather see this team knock a team or two out of the playoffs this year than pick up a few "lottery ticket" third, fourth & fifth round picks that probably won't pan out.

You may think my position is unreasonable. Don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly don't care what you or Burnside or Spector or Burke think. I am glad that Martin is taking a stand. It will pay off in the end, one way or another.
I sometimes get the impression that some of you think that Martin's stand takes precedence over actually having a plan for next season. I'm not sure that anybody is telling Florida to make bad deals. Just pointing out that if Bertuzzi, Roberts or Gelinas aren't going to be a part of next years plans... then perhaps they should be moved for maximum value at the deadline.
They're trying to estimate the value of those players if they were to be traded, which is difficult because players go for underpayment, overpayment and everything in between. So far, it doesn't sound like you guys are happy with what you're reading. I personally don't agree with the lowball projections for Bertuzzi that I've read. But I wouldn't hazard a guess as to what he'll go for either. It's not like players in his particular situation are traded every year. Players like Roberts have been traded repeatedly at the deadline though and haven't returned much (Francis for a 4th, S.Thomas for a 5th, Gilmour for a 6th, D.Hunter & 3rd for a 2nd). Gelinas looks like something between a 3rd to a 5th.
Here's every deadline since 1980, if you'd like to see for yourself:
http://www.forecaster.ca/demo/hockey...ine-years-past

If Martin waits patiently, the intensity of a bidding war may drive up the price to these rumoured standards... or teams may make other moves and he'll miss his window. So, I don't know that there's really a good strategy based around a time. Perhaps the best route is to set a realistic high end value and when a deal comes close enough, take it. The newspaper articles you're complaining about seem to be arguing that because Martin is rumoured to be asking $100 for $50 value... he'll either stop receiving calls or he'll dismiss a $50 offer early in the negotiations and miss his window completely. Leaving Florida stuck with them for this season. That of course, is not a problem if they're a part of next years plans... but if not, Martin's just wasted an oppurtunity to make the team better in the long run.

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02-21-2007, 04:59 PM
  #50
angry_treefrog
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The NHL is no different than any other business.

If the seller is not willing to let the buyer walk away, the buyer has the upper hand.

If the buyer is not willing to walk away, then the seller has the upper hand.

I personally would rather see Martin take a stand and risk getting nothing. I'd rather see that than see him take the safe route and accept table scraps. If anyone wants an edge come playoff time, they will pay a price. If they don't, that's ok. Let them walk Jacques. Let them walk.

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