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Old
02-19-2007, 01:39 PM
  #51
Jasper17
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
I disagree with this. Eminger is still a quality asset as he's young (especially for a dman)and he might just need a change of scenery. Same with Sutherby. He's a guy who fans of other teams seem to covet (especially Canadian teams). Do I think either would garner a 1-2 dman in return? No...not unless there are some special circumstances around that player.

I don't however believe those two are going to return a salary dump vet as you've stated. I have a hard time believing McPhee would even consider such a move.
You mean just like Jurcina? he just got dealt for a 4th rd pick, that should let you know what the market is like for underachieving defensman who may need a change of scenery.

As for Sutherby being a guy fans of other teams covet, what exactly is your point there? Since when do fans pull trades? And the only canadien team that I have ever heard show any interest in Sutherby was the Oilers about 2 or 3 years ago. And i seriously doubt any team is going to give up anything of great value for him at this point.

I don't think McPhee would consider a salary dump vet either, but that is prob the only thing going to be offered in a trade.

People who think you can just trade players who are not doing well here for players who will need to wake up. I mean try to imagine yourself as anything other than a Caps fan and ask if you would want your team to give up anything of value for these guys.

The only GM's that are going to want these guys are going to try and get a great deals. That means they are not going to give up anything. Once again let me use the Jurcina deal as another example.

Or do you guys just think McPhee is just such a good GM that he is the only one that doesn't have to give up much for playes who are not cutting it on other teams?

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Old
02-19-2007, 01:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HockeyEh View Post
That's how McPhee manages to hang on. McPhee is nothing if not skilled at throwing others under the bus when teams that he (McPhee) has built fail to perform. Whump! There goes Wilson. Whump! There goes Cassidy. Whump! There goes Jagr. Whump! Whump! Whump! There go Lang, Gonchar, and Nylander! Whump! Whump! Whump! There go Bondra, Witt, and Halpern.

Chris Clark should have though twice before he agreed to take the captaincy. Has anyone lasted more than a year or two since Oates?
The buck stops with Leonsis.....why not start some FIRE TED rhetoric?

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02-19-2007, 01:45 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
You mean just like Jurcina? he just got dealt for a 4th rd pick, that should let you know what the market is like for underachieving defensman who may need a change of scenery.

As for Sutherby being a guy fans of other teams covet, what exactly is your point there? Since when do fans pull trades? And the only canadien team that I have ever heard show any interest in Sutherby was the Oilers about 2 or 3 years ago. And i seriously doubt any team is going to give up anything of great value for him at this point.

I don't think McPhee would consider a salary dump vet either, but that is prob the only thing going to be offered in a trade.

People who think you can just trade players who are not doing well here for players who will need to wake up. I mean try to imagine yourself as anything other than a Caps fan and ask if you would want your team to give up anything of value for these guys.

The only GM's that are going to want these guys are going to try and get a great deals. That means they are not going to give up anything. Once again let me use the Jurcina deal as another example.

Or do you guys just think McPhee is just such a good GM that he is the only one that doesn't have to give up much for playes who are not cutting it on other teams?
Jurcina was a high 1st rounder like Eminger?? I don't see how they compare really. Boston fans were saying the coach and Jurcina didn't get along...that's largly why he was moved according to what I've read.

As for Eminger and Sutherby....I see fans of other teams asking about those two more than any other players (Clark is probably a close 3rd). So yes....it seems like "someone other than a Caps fan" would give up something of value for these two.

I think Eminger would be moved to a team with a similar young guy who might need a change or who has been struggling.

Again this is all hypothetical...I would rather hang onto both of them for now.

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02-19-2007, 01:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HockeyEh View Post
The Caps were torn down in 2003/04. Even discounting the season lost to the lockout, five years is a long time to wait for a team to even make the playoffs, especially when more than half the teams in the NHL qualify each year and the salary cap was supposed to have brought NFL-style parity to hockey. So the five-year free pass that some Caps' fans evidently are willing to give Leonsis and McPhee amazes me.

I'm no fan of the Flyers, but I was impressed when Ed Snider told the media in the press conference snippets shown on HDNet the night Forsberg was traded that he didn't know the meaning of the word "rebuild."
This is the 2nd NHL season this team has been together, it takes time to build a winner. Teams like Buffalo, Anahiem, Nashville, Ottawa and Carolina were not built over night. And those are the teams that are going to be in the hunt for a stanley cup every year for the near future.

Hell even teams that have been great for a long time like Ottawa and Jersey went through a dry spell before they turned the corner.

Sure you can throw together a team that can make the playoffs with a good summer, make the playoffs in the 6-8th seeds but never really compete for a cup. But is that all we want? or do we want a team that can seriously make runs a stanley cup over a 4 or 5 year span? Because that is what Ted and the org wants.

The elite teams in the NHL all went through a 3-5 year stretch of hard times before they become the teams they are today.

Even the teams that are really up and coming like Atlanta, Pittsburgh went through a long stretch of losing.

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Old
02-19-2007, 01:55 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
Jurcina was a high 1st rounder like Eminger?? I don't see how they compare really. Boston fans were saying the coach and Jurcina didn't get along...that's largly why he was moved according to what I've read.

As for Eminger and Sutherby....I see fans of other teams asking about those two more than any other players (Clark is probably a close 3rd). So yes....it seems like "someone other than a Caps fan" would give up something of value for these two.

I think Eminger would be moved to a team with a similar young guy who might need a change or who has been struggling.

Again this is all hypothetical...I would rather hang onto both of them for now.
Who the hell cares what round they were drafted in? do you think that makes a difference 5 years after the fact? Unless your playing like someone who was drafted in the 1st round it doesn't mean a damn thing. Do you really think other teams are going to ignore the fact that this kid can't get into the lineup on one of the worst defensive teams in the NHL just because in 2002 he was drafted in the first round. Hell lets move Klepis and get a great return on him too, he was a former 1st rd pick by your logic he should have good value too right?

And why do you think other fans are asking about those players? because everyone is looking to add talented players for a discount? I mean what exactly do you think other teams are going to offer for a 4th line center who means nothing to their locker room and a defensman who is currently sitting in the press box?

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02-19-2007, 02:34 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
Who the hell cares what round they were drafted in? do you think that makes a difference 5 years after the fact? Unless your playing like someone who was drafted in the 1st round it doesn't mean a damn thing. Do you really think other teams are going to ignore the fact that this kid can't get into the lineup on one of the worst defensive teams in the NHL just because in 2002 he was drafted in the first round. Hell lets move Klepis and get a great return on him too, he was a former 1st rd pick by your logic he should have good value too right?

And why do you think other fans are asking about those players? because everyone is looking to add talented players for a discount? I mean what exactly do you think other teams are going to offer for a 4th line center who means nothing to their locker room and a defensman who is currently sitting in the press box?

OK "King of exaggerations" Eminger has been a healthy scratch..what...3 games this season and that qualifies as "can't get into the lineup"?

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02-19-2007, 02:48 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
OK "King of exaggerations" Eminger has been a healthy scratch..what...3 games this season and that qualifies as "can't get into the lineup"?
WHAT?



Exaclty where is the exaggeration? Can he or can't he get into the lineup?

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Old
02-19-2007, 03:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
This is the 2nd NHL season this team has been together, it takes time to build a winner. Teams like Buffalo, Anahiem, Nashville, Ottawa and Carolina were not built over night. And those are the teams that are going to be in the hunt for a stanley cup every year for the near future.

Hell even teams that have been great for a long time like Ottawa and Jersey went through a dry spell before they turned the corner.

Sure you can throw together a team that can make the playoffs with a good summer, make the playoffs in the 6-8th seeds but never really compete for a cup. But is that all we want? or do we want a team that can seriously make runs a stanley cup over a 4 or 5 year span? Because that is what Ted and the org wants.

The elite teams in the NHL all went through a 3-5 year stretch of hard times before they become the teams they are today.

Even the teams that are really up and coming like Atlanta, Pittsburgh went through a long stretch of losing.
McPhee has been GM since 1997; Leonsis has been the controlling owner since 1999. It's more than a bit glib for anyone to suggest that Leonsis and McPhee should be judged only on the two most recent seasons, and even more glib to suggest they deserve a pass because they are "rebuilding."

And you're looking in the wrong direction if you think that teams post-lockout are going to be built in the same way as they were pre-lockout. Make no mistake. The NHL is a different place now. With the imposition of a salary cap and the marked reduction in the age of free agency, team building is MUCH more fluid.

As a matter of fact, the ONLY Stanley Cup winner in the NHL under the current CBA, the Carolina Hurricanes, went from a 76 point/no playoff season the last season before the lockout to winning everything the first season after the lockout. Who led them there? It was largely players they acquired through trades and free agency, and a smaller number of draft picks. It wasn't a team that was "built from within." It was a team that was built using ALL resources available post-lockout.

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02-19-2007, 03:09 PM
  #59
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Come on Rids....Is firing Hanlon/McPhee going to all of the sudden get Ovy scoring again, because that's what you're insinuating?! I mean...really....ponderous man....effing ponderous.

But to answer your question with a guess of my own....I think next year is make or break (for McPhee and Hanlon) and I would even go so far as to guess....that if this team tanks for the rest of the season...Hanlon could be gone in the offseason. One thing he's shown he's been good at is motivating the players....if that's gone, Hanlon is in trouble.
Actually, I wasn't insinuating that ridding of Hanlon/McPhee would get Ovechkin scoring again. He's not really what I am concerned about. Ovechkin could score for Hanlon, it's not him that caused the drought. It's the new system. They are obviously trying to further Ovechkin's development by forcing him to focus on defense. They preached it, he didn't listen, so now it's forced on him. It's a risk they are taking, and once they change their style again, Ovy will score.

Here's what I simply don't understand:

We have been told by various posters that we can't trade the Sutherby's, Pettinger's, Eminger's of the world becuase they are "the core". Now I'm being told that they can't be traded becuase we won't get anything good in return? If you aren't going to be able to get good returns if you trade your "core", then why are they the "core"?

I have been very upfront for my disdain for the architect of this squad. I would like for a new "hockey mind" to lead this team. I felt this team would be lucky to be anything but bottom 2-3 in East. I said that in the beginning, and I was right. We had a nice little flirt going on with the playoffs, but that's far gone now. We have settled into what we are. A flawed team with a lot of youth.

What bothers me is that a lot of our "core" has regressed, and some of it badly. We have players that are now not worth much (according to some here, even some who support GMGM). There is a malaise over this franchise, and it needs to go. Players that shouldn't be regressing are. Why??

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02-19-2007, 03:10 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
WHAT?



Exaclty where is the exaggeration? Can he or can't he get into the lineup?
Well let's see....I show him in 53 of 59 games. So YES...he can get into the lineup.

If he gets moved sometime in the next week, then he's being held out as a precaution leading up to a trade so in reality he's been a healthy scratch from anywhere between 1 and 3 games.

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02-19-2007, 03:10 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by HockeyEh View Post
McPhee has been GM since 1997; Leonsis has been the controlling owner since 1999. It's more than a bit glib for anyone to suggest that Leonsis and McPhee should be judged only on the two most recent seasons, and even more glib to suggest they deserve a pass because they are "rebuilding."

And you're looking in the wrong direction if you think that teams post-lockout are going to be built in the same way as they were pre-lockout. Make no mistake. The NHL is a different place now. With the imposition of a salary cap and the marked reduction in the age of free agency, team building is MUCH more fluid.

As a matter of fact, the ONLY Stanley Cup winner in the NHL under the current CBA, the Carolina Hurricanes, went from a 76 point/no playoff season the last season before the lockout to winning everything the first season after the lockout. Who led them there? It was largely players they acquired through trades and free agency, and a smaller number of draft picks. It wasn't a team that was "built from within." It was a team that was built using ALL resources available post-lockout.
what did they trade to bring in those players? Not all drafted players have to play for you, some can be used to aquire vet players. But you have to have the prospects to move.

believe it or not fleischmann doesn't have much trade value.

draft, smart signings, good trades = good teams. But all of that takes time. If you really think Carolina built that team in one summer than you better take a closer look. They added some key pieces no doubt, but that was the end product of a 4 or 5 year process.

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Old
02-19-2007, 03:13 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
The buck stops with Leonsis.....why not start some FIRE TED rhetoric?
Ha! Ha!

Still, if Leonsis has lost interest in the Caps now that he's a documentary filmmaker who spends his time promoting "Nanking" at Sundance and other film festivals, then it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if he sold the team to an owner who cares about winning and won't starve the team for payroll so that it qualifies for revenue sharing payments.

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02-19-2007, 03:14 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
Well let's see....I show him in 53 of 59 games. So YES...he can get into the lineup.

If he gets moved sometime in the next week, then he's being held out as a precaution leading up to a trade so in reality he's been a healthy scratch from anywhere between 1 and 3 games.
again, where is the exxageration?

I said he is a guy who can't get into the lineup? and currently (hold on let me check, ok) he can't.

now if I would of said that he is a guy who could never get into the lineup, that would qualify as an exxageration.

you want to talk about reality and then you bring up that he is being held out so he doesn't get injured .

Steve Eminger is not the type of player you don't play if you want to trade. He is a guy you want to showcase to other teams. And he is certainly a guy who other teams are going to want to watch before they make a move for him.

Anyway you want to spin in, him currenty not being able to get into the lineup is not good for his already low trade value.

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02-19-2007, 03:17 PM
  #64
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bottom line:

- Suts has no trade value. 4th line pluggers who can't score are not in high demand for the playoffs.
- Eminger has slightly more trade value. he has more upside and it is known that D-men take longer to develop. but yer looking at a 3rd round draft pick return at best at this point.

honestly, i don't like change simply for the sake of change.

since we won't be getting much in return for either guy, why trade them? Eminger especially has shown some flashes, and unless we get a ready-made NHL D-man (which we won't) for him than whats the point?

god, i can't believe i am gonna say this, but el Tinnero was right - it will be critical for the team address the lack of a true veteran top 2 D-man and a legit top 2 center (that is assuming backstrom comes over)

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02-19-2007, 03:22 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Japser17 View Post
...draft, smart signings, good trades = good teams. But all of that takes time. If you really think Carolina built that team in one summer than you better take a closer look. They added some key pieces no doubt, but that was the end product of a 4 or 5 year process.
2003-04 ** Carolina misses the playoffs
2004-05 ** Season lost to owners' lockout
Offseason ** Carolina picks up Stillman, Cullen, Whitney & Kaberle.
In-season ** Carolina picks up Weight, Recchi
2005-06 ** CAROLINA WINS STANLEY CUP

Of Carolina's top 10 scorers in the Stanley Cup run 6 (more than half) were with the team for 1 season or less. Another was with the team less than two seasons (Williams). Two more were also trade pickups (Brind'Amour and Hedican). The only homegrown Hurricane to crack the top-10 was Eric Staal.

That's a team that was built FAST.

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02-19-2007, 03:22 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by MattyMurp View Post
bottom line:

- Suts has no trade value. 4th line pluggers who can't score are not in high demand for the playoffs.
- Eminger has slightly more trade value. he has more upside and it is known that D-men take longer to develop. but yer looking at a 3rd round draft pick return at best at this point.

honestly, i don't like change simply for the sake of change.

since we won't be getting much in return for either guy, why trade them? Eminger especially has shown some flashes, and unless we get a ready-made NHL D-man (which we won't) for him than whats the point?

god, i can't believe i am gonna say this, but el Tinnero was right - it will be critical for the team address the lack of a true veteran top 2 D-man and a legit top 2 center (that is assuming backstrom comes over)

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02-19-2007, 03:25 PM
  #67
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2003-04 ** Carolina misses the playoffs
2004-05 ** Season lost to owners' lockout
Offseason ** Carolina picks up Stillman, Cullen, Whitney & Kaberle.
In-season ** Carolina picks up Weight, Recchi
2005-06 ** CAROLINA WINS STANLEY CUP

Of Carolina's top 10 scorers in the Stanley Cup run 6 (more than half) were with the team for 1 season or less. Another was with the team less than two seasons (Williams). Two more were also trade pickups (Brind'Amour and Hedican). The only homegrown Hurricane to crack the top-10 was Eric Staal.

That's a team that was built FAST.
i guess nothing they did before 2003 counts? because they finished last in the east 2 of the 3 years before that.

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02-19-2007, 03:26 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by HockeyEh View Post
2003-04 ** Carolina misses the playoffs
2004-05 ** Season lost to owners' lockout
Offseason ** Carolina picks up Stillman, Cullen, Whitney & Kaberle.
In-season ** Carolina picks up Weight, Recchi
2005-06 ** CAROLINA WINS STANLEY CUP

Of Carolina's top 10 scorers in the Stanley Cup run 6 (more than half) were with the team for 1 season or less. Another was with the team less than two seasons (Williams). Two more were also trade pickups (Brind'Amour and Hedican). The only homegrown Hurricane to crack the top-10 was Eric Staal.

That's a team that was built FAST.
go back to before they drafted eric Staal

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02-19-2007, 04:27 PM
  #69
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the results of the team is slightly better, but it should be. it's the results of some the players that are our supposed core that concerns me

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02-19-2007, 05:18 PM
  #70
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go back to before they drafted eric Staal
Why?

What part of 6 of 10 of their top 10 scorers in the Stanley Cup run were with the team for 1 season or less is hard to comprehend? What part of 7 of their top 10 scorers were with the team for less than 2 seasons is hard to comprehend?

The Carolina Hurricanes WERE built fast.

Compare the 01-02 roster (Cup Finalists) to the 05-06 roster (Cup Winners). Just 9(of 32 players each year) are hold-overs. Most of those were role players, people like Kevyn and Craig Adams making less than $1M a year. And even among the IMPACT players, only Erik Cole was a Carolina draft pick. Brind-Amour, Hedican and Ward all came through trades.

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02-23-2007, 12:57 PM
  #71
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And this was done because Carolina went out and spent like crazy in free agency?

I can simply point to the Rangers as an example of a team who has tried to do that for what....12 years with no success and more often than not, didn't even make the playoffs.

HUH?

They spent about $35 million, as I recall...not too much more than we're spending now. Tampa won the Cup spending about the same.

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02-23-2007, 01:33 PM
  #72
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HUH?

They spent about $35 million, as I recall...not too much more than we're spending now. Tampa won the Cup spending about the same.
My point was that they both sucked for MUCH longer than the Caps have, and were able to collect a lot of assets to make some good trades.

I hope Mcphee can do the same with our assets.

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02-23-2007, 01:34 PM
  #73
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To the moderators:

Why aren't you moving these posts to the "rant" thread?

Indeed, I didn't send the letter I wrote...but I'm going to now. Talk about your double standard.

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02-23-2007, 01:36 PM
  #74
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My point was that they both sucked for MUCH longer than the Caps have, and were able to collect a lot of assets to make some good trades.

I hope Mcphee can do the same with our assets.
I don't disagree with most of your points...just correcting a misstatement on salary levels.

Keep going...you're making sense and also making interesting points.

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02-23-2007, 01:41 PM
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Why?

What part of 6 of 10 of their top 10 scorers in the Stanley Cup run were with the team for 1 season or less is hard to comprehend? What part of 7 of their top 10 scorers were with the team for less than 2 seasons is hard to comprehend?

The Carolina Hurricanes WERE built fast.

Compare the 01-02 roster (Cup Finalists) to the 05-06 roster (Cup Winners). Just 9(of 32 players each year) are hold-overs. Most of those were role players, people like Kevyn and Craig Adams making less than $1M a year. And even among the IMPACT players, only Erik Cole was a Carolina draft pick. Brind-Amour, Hedican and Ward all came through trades.
You know your stuff sir. Good job.

But take it easy on VF...he is a guitarist, after all, so he ain't all bad.

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