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Dump and chase mentality

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Old
02-19-2007, 09:55 AM
  #26
Capitano
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Imo a system can only get you so far, other times you need hockey players be hockey players and not robots.

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Old
02-19-2007, 09:55 AM
  #27
ngc_5128
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Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
The whole team needs to start hitting everything that moves!!!! Thats a big part of why the Habs are slumping so bad, because we stopped hitting and started to play like a bunch of Sally's. If we are going to play dump and chase hockey we need to have 2 forwards skating into each corner and hitting. If we have the boards covered each way, we should be able to keep the puck in the zone and if we are hitting it will force the defencemen on the other team to turn the puck over faster and create more chances for mistakes. We also need someone who can carry the puck deep into the offensive zone as well....we can't dump and chase all the time....sometimes we need to carry the puck in and set plays up instead of cycling the puck downlow and having 3 guys behind the net playing.
Dump and chase is a fine style to play, but as a few alluded to above, we omit the chase part of the play. When we were doing well, we dumped, chased and hit the defense. We got away from that in the slump, probably the main thing that caused our slump.

It's the same reason we get burned down low in the defensive zone. Well, that and not getting any forward support down on the transition. The defense gets the puck and our forwards race to the other blue line, thinking we have Lidstrom and Pronger on the back end setting them up with laser beam, no fail, tape to tape passes. The only time we can make a decent break out pass is if Markov has the puck, or the centre sticks around in our half the neutral zone, or around the blue line. Our defence collapses behind the net with pressure, and there is now way Bouillon or Souray will make a 100ft pass without it being intercepted, that's for sure.

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Old
02-19-2007, 09:56 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ngc_5128 View Post
Dump and chase is a fine style to play, but as a few alluded to above, we omit the chase part of the play. When we were doing well, we dumped, chased and hit the defense. We got away from that in the slump, probably the main thing that caused our slump.

It's the same reason we get burned down low in the defensive zone. Well, that and not getting any forward support down on the transition. The defense gets the puck and our forwards race to the other blue line, thinking we have Lidstrom and Pronger on the back end setting them up with laser beam, no fail, tape to tape passes. The only time we can make a decent break out pass is if Markov has the puck, or the centre sticks around in our half the neutral zone, or around the blue line. Our defence collapses behind the net with pressure, and there is now way Bouillon or Souray will make a 100ft pass without it being intercepted, that's for sure.
Our defense causes so many turnovers by hitting shinpads it's not funny...

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02-19-2007, 10:00 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
Our defense causes so many turnovers by hitting shinpads it's not funny...
Don't get me started It's like they forget how to slide to their right when they are in the offensive zone.

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02-19-2007, 10:17 AM
  #30
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Let's look at lines in terms of dump and chase vs. possession.

Higgins-Koivu-Ryder don't dump it a whole lot. Higgins is about speed , Ryder wants the puck in flight, while Koivu distributes. I think they're playing poorly, but I don't think they dump and chase much.

Bonk-Johnson and whoever, Bonk and MJ will hold the puck and try to work it deep. Both are smart players,probably both are missing an extra gear to do all that much offensively, but they aren't afraid to carry the puck.

Plekanec and co., whether Kovy,Samsonov, aren't afraid to try and make plays. The fact that they've sucked at doing it is the problem.

Whoever's on the 4th line, well, Lapierre isn't creative crossing the line,but he'll swing wide on the D. and shoot. Murray and Downey tend to just push it ahead, but they aren't asked to do anything other than try and muck around in the offensive zone.

We've seen more aborted plays lately because teh gaps get stretched between the forwards and D, so you see d men trying to gain C and dump it.

The lack of forechecking is more the issue imo though. Be a little unpleasant.

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02-19-2007, 10:56 AM
  #31
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I think strategy has to change according to what period it is. I think Dump and Chase makes sense early in the game, when its tied and tempo is trying to be set. To me, it makes sense to dump it in and let Latendresse pound someone into the boards, regardless of if the team keeps the puck.

But I am seriously getting annoyed when the Habs are going into the 3rd with a 2 goal defecit and still dumping it in. At that point I think they need to pass the puck around and make things happen, not just give it away.

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Old
02-19-2007, 10:59 AM
  #32
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The dump and chase is the best we can do considering our total lack of offensive talent...

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Old
02-19-2007, 11:13 AM
  #33
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Maybe I'll be the first to say it, but I'm looking forward to Lats being sent in the AHL for the remaining of year when the CHL season ends. And all of next year. Lats is not ready, he should pay the price every rookies in the habs organization is paying.(2 AHL seasons)

1) He needs massively improved acceleration.
2) He needs to become mean, show attitude, like Laps.
3) We dont need a 225 lbs floater in our lineup.

At this point in time I have no doubt Kost and Grabo are much closer to be NHL-Ready than Lats.

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Old
02-19-2007, 11:23 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Let's look at lines in terms of dump and chase vs. possession.

Higgins-Koivu-Ryder don't dump it a whole lot. Higgins is about speed , Ryder wants the puck in flight, while Koivu distributes. I think they're playing poorly, but I don't think they dump and chase much.

Bonk-Johnson and whoever, Bonk and MJ will hold the puck and try to work it deep. Both are smart players,probably both are missing an extra gear to do all that much offensively, but they aren't afraid to carry the puck.

Plekanec and co., whether Kovy,Samsonov, aren't afraid to try and make plays. The fact that they've sucked at doing it is the problem.

Whoever's on the 4th line, well, Lapierre isn't creative crossing the line,but he'll swing wide on the D. and shoot. Murray and Downey tend to just push it ahead, but they aren't asked to do anything other than try and muck around in the offensive zone.

We've seen more aborted plays lately because teh gaps get stretched between the forwards and D, so you see d men trying to gain C and dump it.

The lack of forechecking is more the issue imo though. Be a little unpleasant.


Agree 100 %

Those who don't agree with dump and chase and prefer puck movement, albeit lateral, should never coach hockey even at an atom level. Dump and chase is mandatory in practically every team's playbook. If a player loses a puck in entering the offensive zone, you create a turnover. REmember the goal that cost the last game of the playoffs last year? Ryder, if I recall, did not dump it, and preferred to dangle with it. Remember?

You dump:
a) when a complete line changes
b) to create pressure down low

If a dump and chase doesn't work it's because:
a) there's no pressure from the forwards
b) the puck is thrown too strongly or too lightly on the boards.

Right now, with most of MOntreal's lines, the dump and chase SHOULD be the way to go. The problem is not the coach. It's the players' commitment to do it. Why does Lapierre et Milroy do it the right way all the time and others don't? It's because they are not committed on the forecheck. It's not the system. It's the players.

That's why we've been losing games galore. There hasn't been any commitment. Players who have been brought up by carryin the puck, feel it shouldn't be dropped. So they don't or they do it but without any follow through.

Montreal plays a 1-2-2 most of the time, but not on a forechecking situation. They CAN double-up when deep. The problem is: F-2 doesn't follow because he's not committed to it.

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Old
02-19-2007, 11:44 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post

You dump:
a) when a complete line changes
b) to create pressure down low

If a dump and chase doesn't work it's because:
a) there's no pressure from the forwards
b) the puck is thrown too strongly or too lightly on the boards.
Exactly.

D 'n' C is the correct strategy for a "speed" team. I've seen Ryder, Higgins, Plekanec, Johnson, Bonk and even Latendresse swoop in on dumped pucks this weekend, getting there before the Dmen and creating that pressure down low. When the players are committed to doing it, we're successful in buzzing in the offensize zone. It happens, folks!

The 4th trio does it successfully, the 1st occasionally, and if there's a "hard around" even Kovalev picks it up now and again. This is a good strategy and only fails when the players are lazy, or as happens a lot, are at the end of a shift.

A lot of the time the players have spent too long in their own zone, and by the time they break it out it's time for a change, so the only option is to dump it and get off the ice. It's DEFENSIVE zone play that causes this, NOT the coach, not the strategy. If the Habs could clear their own zone a little (a lot) more efficiently, many more of those dump-ins would have speedy forecheckers arriving at the puck before the D.

That's the essence of beating the trap these days. Skating though it and arriving 1st on the puck. Simple & effective when executed with determination.

Nothing to do with the coach, not a thing, and the only people saying so are the usual halfwits who hate Carbo for the sake of not understanding the game and blaming the coach for his players' own play.


P.S. As for Latendresse, he's tired. Period. He's played a lot of hockey this year and he's going through the very same stuggle a lot of kids do fresh out of junior. So if he seems not to chase well, it's that he's out of gas a lot faster these days than at the start of the season. It's natural, completely expected, and not at all worrying. Give the kid a break, he's earned respect, and despite some struggles has done more to help the team than hurt it.

The guy's no Crosby.... but he hits a lot harder!

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Old
02-19-2007, 12:10 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Maybe I'll be the first to say it, but I'm looking forward to Lats being sent in the AHL for the remaining of year when the CHL season ends. And all of next year. Lats is not ready, he should pay the price every rookies in the habs organization is paying.(2 AHL seasons)

1) He needs massively improved acceleration.
2) He needs to become mean, show attitude, like Laps.
3) We dont need a 225 lbs floater in our lineup.

At this point in time I have no doubt Kost and Grabo are much closer to be NHL-Ready than Lats.
Jeez...some people are way too hard on Latendresse, the Crosby's, Staal's, Malkin's, Ovechkin's of this world have distorted many people's views on what 19yr old rookies are supposed to be doing in the NHL.

Guillaume Latendresse has improved by leaps and bounds as an NHL player this year, compared to what he would of looked like coming out of the CHL at the end of this year. It's a process, he'll only get better...yet people look at the performances that he puts up this year as the final product of what we can expect from him Personally, I think Latendresse was kept with the Habs more for developmental purposes, maybe they weren't happy with his junior team's committment to improving players

I don't see how anyone can be disapointed with Latendresse's season thus far

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Old
02-19-2007, 12:15 PM
  #37
417
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Agree 100 %

Those who don't agree with dump and chase and prefer puck movement, albeit lateral, should never coach hockey even at an atom level. Dump and chase is mandatory in practically every team's playbook. If a player loses a puck in entering the offensive zone, you create a turnover. REmember the goal that cost the last game of the playoffs last year? Ryder, if I recall, did not dump it, and preferred to dangle with it. Remember?

You dump:
a) when a complete line changes
b) to create pressure down low

If a dump and chase doesn't work it's because:
a) there's no pressure from the forwards
b) the puck is thrown too strongly or too lightly on the boards.

Right now, with most of MOntreal's lines, the dump and chase SHOULD be the way to go. The problem is not the coach. It's the players' commitment to do it. Why does Lapierre et Milroy do it the right way all the time and others don't? It's because they are not committed on the forecheck. It's not the system. It's the players.

That's why we've been losing games galore. There hasn't been any commitment. Players who have been brought up by carryin the puck, feel it shouldn't be dropped. So they don't or they do it but without any follow through.

Montreal plays a 1-2-2 most of the time, but not on a forechecking situation. They CAN double-up when deep. The problem is: F-2 doesn't follow because he's not committed to it.
You know, what you wrote is all nice and dandy, however, like many have mentionned here...if you're gonna dump n' chase, well you've got to dump AND CHASE, they're not doing the most important part of that equation.

And when they do, they either send it too hard or too softly, then they're caught flatfooted in the 1-2-2 on the counter-attack, that's why you see so many teams beat the Habs on rush goals

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