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Bouillon is over rated

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Old
12-09-2003, 05:46 PM
  #1
KILLger
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Bouillon is over rated

Following the Ribs is over rated and this guy's over rated and etc...

It's now becoming ridiculous... Bouillon a great player? What planet are you guys comming from!? He's at best a 7th dman. You know, that guy who sits in the stands and comes to play whenever needs arise...

Then we wonder why we're called the worst fans on these boards...

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12-09-2003, 05:56 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger
Following the Ribs is over rated and this guy's over rated and etc...

It's now becoming ridiculous... Bouillon a great player? What planet are you guys comming from!? He's at best a 7th dman. You know, that guy who sits in the stands and comes to play whenever needs arise...

Then we wonder why we're called the worst fans on these boards...

Who said that?

Bouillon is a good player, we need grit and people who stand up for each other, he brings just that and he plays on the 3rd pairing. There is nothing wrong with that and its not like we have someone to replace him. Theres no way I want to see some RD on the left side and I've stated quite a few times why I don't think Hainsey should be there right now.

I also doubt Bouillon is in this temas long term plans so if he can help us win, which he is doing by playing his rough style of game we despretly lack, then he is one of those 19 guys I want playing.

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12-09-2003, 05:59 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big M1ke
That's because he's playing well and great players have ice time.
In the "Trade imminent..." thread.

Also, Hainsey producing greatly in the AHL + wasn't out of place in Montreal... what more do you want!?

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12-09-2003, 06:03 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger
In the "Trade imminent..." thread.

Also, Hainsey producing greatly in the AHL + wasn't out of place in Montreal... what more do you want!?

Playing with more confidence with the puck, making actual transition passes instead of doing stupid backhand passes to his teammate when some pressure is put on him. Not having serious lack of intensity in his own zone and using more of his talent to carry the puck to the oppitions zone. Actually outplaying Bouillon would also be a good way to start.

Playing with more grit, he's got the size but he sure ain't got any determination to defend his teammates like Komisarek or Bouillon, even Markov at 6' tries more.



I agree though, that great players thing is kind ridiculous. Bouillon will probably not have his spot next year. Hainsey will have to be protected and the way he's playing right now in Hamilton, you can bet he'll be back some time this year.

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12-09-2003, 06:05 PM
  #5
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Why say Bouillon is overrated? By whom? A few fans who appreciate him more for his spirit than his ability? He plays on the 3rd D unit on a team that isn't considered to have great defense. No one is nominating him for the All-Star team or Norris trophy.

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12-09-2003, 06:28 PM
  #6
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When I said great I think I didn't express exactly what I had in mind (don't forget I'm French first!) . I just think he's doing the job just fine so that's why he's having so much ice time!!

I know he's not an all-star! But personally, I like the way he plays the game recently with his few errors and lots of bodychecks.

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12-09-2003, 08:10 PM
  #7
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Bouillon is and never will be anything more than a 7th dman. How he got the 6th dman spot over Hainsey is beyond me at this point. Hainsey was playing a better game than Bouillon was, except Bouillon would drop the gloves vs players like Kotalik etc who are not known for fighting.

At the time Hainsey was sent down, Hainsey had 1 goal, 1 assist and 2 points with a +3 raiting while Bouillon had 0 pts and a -1 raiting. At the time our offense was also our biggest problem yet we sent down a top offensive defensive prospect like Hainsey to keep Bouillon in the line up. now were forced to play Bouillon on the point during the PP, when hes got very little offensive ability and a weak shot.

Bouillon has filled the #6 dman spot for the Habs quite well, but Hainsey would have been a better role for such a spot. We are supposed to to be going through a youth movement this season, yet were playing a 28 year old 5'8 dman instead. Hainsey has at least 7 inches more reach than Bouillon to top it off. Hainsey never once make a mistake that resulted in a goal, and Bouillon has made 3 since Hainsey was sent down (Calgary, Washington and Carolina).

Our coaching needs to stop relying on vets because they want to keep their job, and start what should have been started last year, a youth movement. The NJ Devils, Stanley Cup champions last season are playing TWO rookie dmen in their line up this season, and the Habs cant even ice 1 every game. Were not cup contenders, and will the 2 extra games in the post season be worth delaying another year of the youth movement? Next season we will be forced to play quite a few rookies with the departure of veterans, why not play some now and make the transition easier.

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12-09-2003, 08:19 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
Bouillon is and never will be anything more than a 7th dman. How he got the 6th dman spot over Hainsey is beyond me at this point. Hainsey was playing a better game than Bouillon was, except Bouillon would drop the gloves vs players like Kotalik etc who are not known for fighting.

At the time Hainsey was sent down, Hainsey had 1 goal, 1 assist and 2 points with a +3 raiting while Bouillon had 0 pts and a -1 raiting. At the time our offense was also our biggest problem yet we sent down a top offensive defensive prospect like Hainsey to keep Bouillon in the line up. now were forced to play Bouillon on the point during the PP, when hes got very little offensive ability and a weak shot.

Bouillon has filled the #6 dman spot for the Habs quite well, but Hainsey would have been a better role for such a spot. We are supposed to to be going through a youth movement this season, yet were playing a 28 year old 5'8 dman instead. Hainsey has at least 7 inches more reach than Bouillon to top it off. Hainsey never once make a mistake that resulted in a goal, and Bouillon has made 3 since Hainsey was sent down (Calgary, Washington and Carolina).

Our coaching needs to stop relying on vets because they want to keep their job, and start what should have been started last year, a youth movement. The NJ Devils, Stanley Cup champions last season are playing TWO rookie dmen in their line up this season, and the Habs cant even ice 1 every game. Were not cup contenders, and will the 2 extra games in the post season be worth delaying another year of the youth movement? Next season we will be forced to play quite a few rookies with the departure of veterans, why not play some now and make the transition easier.
I agree with some of what you said. In a sense, we would be better off playing Hainsey over Bouillon right now in order to have Hainsey gain NHL experience. This is a development year, isn't it? And if we make it to the playoffs, good for us. But if we don't start playing guys like Hainsey right now over Bouillon, Hainsey will not be ready to jump into the line-up during the playoffs, which is too bad because it would be great experience for him.

However, perhaps Gainey and Julien decided to send Hainsey to the minors to burst his arrogance bubble. They want to show him that if he wants to stay in the NHL, he has to work hard to earn his spot and that he will not get free development time if he doesn't work for it.

But I still hope they bring Hainsey back up soon because I wouldn't want him to miss the end of the year. Now is the time to give him another chance at becoming our 3rd left D-man. If he seizes the opportunity, then play him lots now and have him somewhat experienced down the road when we will most likely be fighting for a playoff berth.

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Old
12-09-2003, 10:45 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plekanec
Bouillon is actually playing extremmely well... He does all the little things well and is by far more effective than Hainsey at the moment!

Bouillon is actually playing like a nice 4-5th defenseman!

I just don't understand the goal to say that he is overrated, Bouillon is effective and useful for us that's all!

While this guy is very small for a defenseman, he wins his battle along the board, is gritty, play with 100% intensity every shifts, makes some explosive bodychecks along the board, he move very quick, his skating is great, great hockey sense.... In fact Bouillon is right now a more effective defenseman than both Quintal and Rivet, even Markov some games IMO!

Overrated!!

By the way, Is Koivu overrated, is Bulis overrated? Zednik? Begin? Gainey? ...Give me a break!
yes ; after Théo, Ribiero , and now Bouillon
plecanek , i am going to please you because for that one , i am absolutly with you....

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Old
12-10-2003, 04:19 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Komisarek


...Well you're obviously wrong
Just because Bouillon's a top six defenseman in Montreal doesn't make him a legitimate top six defenseman in the NHL.

BTW, if you can ever show the slightest bit of maturity with people you disagree with, I'd appreciate it. I don't mean that as an insult towards you, just that while you have good thoughts on players, you tend to mask that with mocking other people's opinions, or posting one-liners without supporting them or describing what you mean (eg. above).

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12-10-2003, 05:50 AM
  #11
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I truely admire Boullion for his heart but I gotta say I don't like seeing Hainsey down there in the AHL and having Boullion take his spot. I think Hainsey and Komisarek are both ready to have permanent spots on this team. I mean there our future and instead we have a 5'8, 28 year old in his spot. I say keep him as a researve D as he does have more heart then any or most guys on the team.

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12-10-2003, 06:04 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger
In the "Trade imminent..." thread.

Also, Hainsey producing greatly in the AHL + wasn't out of place in Montreal... what more do you want!?
On the contrary, Hainsey was out of place in Montreal. Boullion on the contrary earned his spot with smart, physical play.

It won't hurt him to spend some time in the AHL, the worst consequence should be a few hurt feelings among the fans who think he's the 2nd coming.

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12-10-2003, 06:19 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Komisarek
Uhh yeah, that rule also applies to alot of players, but the fact that he's in montreal has a top 6 dman makes him an NHL top six dman in the NHL(atleast for now, you see?).
Technically, sure. I think the poster you were responding to was stating they didn't think Bouillon was a legitimate top six NHL defenseman though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Komisarek
I don't know why people are always saying, he's a 7th dman at best, AHL-calibre, AHL-bound or reserve defensemen etc. I think Bouillon offers a little more than a #7 dman could and people who question his "lack of skills", i just wanna say.. hm, what lack of skills? it's not like he's counted on to score goals, his job is to defend(among other things) and he does his job well for the most part.

Not only do i like his aggressive style of play, i like the speed that he adds to our blueline and he isn't half as bad as people say he is on the PP, Bouillon has been dubbed a #7 dman, only because he wasn't really ever given a chance, i mean he was given chances, but the one he's getting right now is a little different because the staff has confidence and he's sort of "made" himself a regular spot, im glad Gainey and CJ see what i saw in Bouillon a few years back.
It's hard to say with Bouillon. Over the past half dozen games, I would agree with you that he's played a strong game. He's moved the puck well, added a lot of character and toughness, and has the speed to jump into the play and help get the offense moving in transition.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Rivet started to play better and tougher hockey after he was paired with Bouillon either.

Bouillon was one of the first Montreal players to drop the gloves to defend Theodore after he was ran, and while a lot of credit is given (and owed) to Begin and Souray for the more physical team play we're seeing, Bouillon isn't getting the credit he deserves for doing the same thing.

Now the reasons Bouillon is not quite a legitimate top 6 defenseman yet in my mind is as follows:

- Bouillon suffers over long stretches. He'll play fantastic hockey once inserted into the lineup, but then he'll start losing the intensity that got him into the lineup in the first place. He hasn't done that this year yet, so he may have developed late.

- Makes some terrible decisions with the puck in his own zone. Again over the last half dozen to last eight games we haven't seen this. I'm hoping he won't revert back to this play.

- While the guy's as thick as they come, Bouillon lacks overall strength. When he gets a chance to skate at a player and hit them with speed, he can utilize his lower body strength and good form to do some damage. But when he doesn't have speed and he's trying to contain a player down low or in front of the net, he can struggle. Of late he's learned not to try to outmuscle players always and tie up their stick instead. This has made him more valuable, and he's improving on this more by the day.

I'd like to see him keep up his current play. Then all my points about him not being a legitimate top six defensemen are moot. I'm in favour of him playing over Hainsey at this point, who I feel has a lot of issues to work on in Hamilton.

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12-10-2003, 07:17 AM
  #14
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Bouillon getting lots of ice time right now does not translate into anything about his long term future with the team over say, Hainsey or Komo. CJ has been very consistent in rewarding players who come to play every night, and the Cube falls within that category. CJ preaches accountability and sticking to the system...with it, you play, without, you sit.

Bouillon plays gritty hockey and brings his game to the rink every game. That is getting him ice time right now, but we cannot extrapolate that to conclude that he would get the long term edge over younger guys like Hainsey and Komo who have much more upside. Let them develop, but at least for now we have a stop gap guy who gives his all for the team. Coaches and fans should collectively like that type of player.

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12-10-2003, 07:32 AM
  #15
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hey hey hey wait one second guys! Hainsey was litterally out of place in montreal. It wasn't even funny, when we were on 5vs5 the guy was just about the worst dman defensively we had in years. He was also not strong enough to handle forechecking. Come on it was more than obvious!!!

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12-10-2003, 07:36 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
hey hey hey wait one second guys! Hainsey was litterally out of place in montreal. It wasn't even funny, when we were on 5vs5 the guy was just about the worst dman defensively we had in years. He was also not strong enough to handle forechecking. Come on it was more than obvious!!!
All the more reason to let him develop his game with quality ice time in the AHL with Jarvis, while the more experienced stop gap guy Bouillon can keep the wolves at bay with his gritty play every night.

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12-10-2003, 07:59 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWT Habs Fan
All the more reason to let him develop his game with quality ice time in the AHL with Jarvis, while the more experienced stop gap guy Bouillon can keep the wolves at bay with his gritty play every night.
Bouillon makes a lot of fans gaga because he throws a big hit or two each game and occasionally drops a bigger player to the ice, but that stuff is strictly cosmetic, IMO. The fact is, Bouillon does not contain big forwards well because he is too small, he loses too many battles for the puck, and he makes rushed passes.

A 5'8'', under-200 lb defenseman has no place on an Eastern Conference staring six, unless he has Gonchar-like offensive skills (and Bouillon's 2 points this year should be evidence enough that he does not). Look at the Flyers and how difficult it is to penetrate their defense down low. It's practically impossible to stand in their low slot area for more than a second. Too many big bodies.

Sure, Bouillon is "gritty," and he has "heart," but so do a lot of guys in AHL, whom Bouillon is not much better than. If we're going to build this team from the goal out, which sorta kinda seems to be the way the Habs are going, we need to dump Francis, or at least relegate him to a reserse post, and replace him with someone bigger and more skilled.

If only we could find a young player like that...oh wait...isn't there some kid named Hainsey playing in Hamilton? Bring up Hainsey.

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12-10-2003, 08:01 AM
  #18
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Bouillon is and never will be anything more than a 7th dman. How he got the 6th dman spot over Hainsey is beyond me at this point.

I am with you on this one!!!!...he will never be more that a 7 dman

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12-10-2003, 08:52 AM
  #19
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Bouillon is overrated

Frankie Bouillon is a good journeyman defenseman and, most likely, he'll never be more than that. Komisarek and Hainsey are both 1st round draft picks and top prospects of the Montreal Canadiens' organization.

Andrei Markov is the only defenseman developed by the Habs who seems to have succeeded since Craig Rivet in 1992 and Patrice Brisebois in 1989, almost 15 years ago, and sometimes, I'm not that sure if Rivet and Breezy were so successful over the years.

Why did the Habs coaches over the past few years preferred to play journeymen defensemen like Bouillon, Traverse and Dykhuis over prospects being developed in the organization? The answer is quite evident: short vision caused by a pathological fear of rookie mistakes. The Habs coaches in the past 10 years have been concerned by only one thing: making the next playoffs in order to save their butts.

Thus, the use of journeyman players with some experience over the development of error prone rookies. On the long run, it can have negative effects on young talented players who are not permitted to improve themselves at the NHL level, and on the team in general which will remain mediocre for years to come.

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Old
12-10-2003, 09:31 AM
  #20
Guy Caballero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Komisarek
Hey, if a 5ft8 under 200lb defenseman has no place on an Eastern Conference starting six, then why is he there? Oh, you must know more then Bob Gainey about running a team right? The guy is a griffin bodybuilder. Bouillon has been improving his place everygame so far and he's become very reliable on d for us, possibly one of our "key" players right now. I know you don't want to believe this, but you should stop living in the past because Bouillon has been playing very well as of late and i disagree that you say the only reason we like him is because he makes big hits, completely false, scroll up and read my other post, thanks.
Yeah, I didn't like Traverse in the lineup last year, either. Does that mean I thought I knew more than Andre Savard? Ditto Brisebois' contract signing. Did that mean I thought I could do player contracts better than he could? I also didn't like the Claude Lemieux for Sylvain Turgeon deal. Did that make me more qualified in my eyes to GM the Habs than Serge Savard?

Maybe I don't have all the information on Hainsey, I'll grant you that, but I know what I see, and I see a Boullion that's weak on his man and generally bad with the puck. Three or four good games is not going to change that opinion. Maybe he will in time, but at 28, I don't see him blossoming into a number 4 defenseman. Call it a "hunch."

Instead of making ad hominem arguments and resorting to ridicule, saying that any questioning on our part means we think we know more than Gainey, why don't you address people's specific gripes about Bouillon: that he is too small to effectively contain big NHL forwards, and that he makes lots of bad decisions on the ice? I want more for the Habs. So sue me.

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