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Old
12-10-2003, 06:56 AM
  #26
oilswell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpearson1968
this is just beautiful. Comrie had the oil over a barrel for the last number of years, and took advantage of it. Now, it's his turn.
Love the oil-based metaphor of the barrel.

However people thinking that Comrie was doing something underhanded with the Van Ryn loophole are just as wrong as slats432 is for saying Lowe is playing dirty pool now.

Comrie's loophole move was merely shrewd, and a great negotiation tactic falling within the scope of a previously fuzzy part of the CBA (as so ruled on by an arbitrator, at least). And he got paid for it. What's not to like? Yashin's (IMO disgraceful) dishonoring of a contract signed in good faith, however, was considerably less honorable.

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12-10-2003, 06:56 AM
  #27
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I'm with Dr. V and Slats. This is gimicky at best, and stupid at worst. If Lowe wants cash instead of a player, pick or prospect, the place to get it from is the team he is trading for, not the player. I just can't believe this is true because it is so ridiculous. If Comrie is ever expected to pay, then he would just include that in his contract negotiations with the Ducks, meaning that ultimately the Ducks paying Lowe not Comrie. Why introduce the middle-man. I don't buy it.

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12-10-2003, 07:03 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
Love the oil-based metaphor of the barrel.

However people thinking that Comrie was doing something underhanded with the Van Ryn loophole are just as wrong as slats432 is for saying Lowe is playing dirty pool now.

Comrie's loophole move was merely shrewd, and a great negotiation tactic falling within the scope of a previously fuzzy part of the CBA (as so ruled on by an arbitrator, at least). And he got paid for it. What's not to like? Yashin's (IMO disgraceful) dishonoring of a contract signed in good faith, however, was considerably less honorable.
I agreed with Lowe in the fact that the Van Ryn loophole is a farce. I agreed that he make Comrie sit. I was behind him until now.

There are certain things you expect from your GM. Class is one of them, which is why I had so much respect for Lowe.

This doesn't not exemplify why people think so highly of Kevin Lowe. And all the Comrie haters will support him, right or wrong.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:08 AM
  #29
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lol had to laugh at that article. the reality is this situation to me is making the oilers into a joke. on one hand i feel great, im glad he is making the snot pay on the other hand why make it so personal. i know he screwed us, but if the return for comrie was not high enough to begin with dont trade him. obviously lowe knows that the return for comrie as it stands now is not enough. this could be seen as clever and shrewd or just plain stupid.

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12-10-2003, 07:08 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
I agree with Dr. van....Ask Murray for a bazillion. Asking Comrie for money is blackmail.
I don't understand this response at all. I would call it innovative and just whether it is true or not. When you enter the NHL you sign up to follow a bunch of rules (written and unwritten) in return for being made immensely wealthy. Comrie himself decided that only the written rules mattered to him. He decided how to enter the league and he decided that he would only play in a few cities virtually wiping out his trade value.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. If this is true my respect for the brain trust over at the Oiler's office has risen dramatically but I think I smell Laforge's fingerprints in there somewhere as well. And remember, this isn't hockey, this is business. You screw people in business and if they can get you they will get you. Hey Comrie - gotcha.

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12-10-2003, 07:09 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
In business the term is "negotiation", not "blackmail". He's not threatening to send Laraque to beat up Comrie's grandma.
I bet grandma could take him...BG's too honourable to goon an old lady.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:09 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
EXACTLY! If what Lowe MAYBE doing is blackmail then what Comrie did before he signed his entry level contract was black mail. Pretty similar to say:
"Overpay me or I'll leave"
as to saying
"Pay me what we overpayed you and you can leave"

Pretty damn similar to me.
But that was different. Comrie didn't ask Lowe to fork over some of his personal fundsto get him to agree to a contract. Not the same thing at all.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:11 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
However people thinking that Comrie was doing something underhanded with the Van Ryn loophole are just as wrong as slats432 is for saying Lowe is playing dirty pool now.

Comrie's loophole move was merely shrewd, and a great negotiation tactic falling within the scope of a previously fuzzy part of the CBA (as so ruled on by an arbitrator, at least). And he got paid for it. What's not to like? Yashin's (IMO disgraceful) dishonoring of a contract signed in good faith, however, was considerably less honorable.
Wait a minute. You're okay with the loophole contract because the CBA allows it? So what if there's nothing in the CBA that prohibits getting money from a player in order to trade him? Would you be okay with it then?

I'm not on any side here, but we don't know all the facts. I would go so far as to say we don't know any of the facts.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:13 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
There are certain things you expect from your GM. Class is one of them
Like the classy move of honoring a confidentiality agreement? Or taking loophole money and holding out while refusing to sign with anyone but select teams that are willing to give you a huge raise?

My opinion is that the move being rumoured is not classless. Yeah, I might be wrong. And no I don't hate Comrie and would love him back. So we disagree again. No big deal.

BTW if you read the bottom two paragraphs of Brownlee's article it seems like Lowe just wants money from somewhere as part of the negotiation process...if you read that part first then the beginning of Brownlee's seems like pretty base speculation that Lowe is out to spite Comrie.

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12-10-2003, 07:15 AM
  #35
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I love this I really really love this.

This team bent over backwards to give Comrie his bonus money last year as a good faith offering before re-negotiating his contract. Comrie took the dough and then promply said I want out - and I find that action to be pretty crass considering his roots he has in the city and how well this team treated him.

Lowe is just getting his money back and I'm completely fine with it.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:16 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
But that was different. Comrie didn't ask Lowe to fork over some of his personal fundsto get him to agree to a contract. Not the same thing at all.
Actually, Lowe is asking Comrie to refund the Oilers some of the money which they paid him when the tables were reversed and he had them over a barrel.

If he doesn't like it, he can keep his money and continue to sit. Such is the life of a restricted free agent under the present CBA.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:20 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Asking Comrie for money is blackmail.
No, it's not. It's a market based swap of assets. Comrie gets his rights traded to another team (a definable thing that holds value), and Lowe gets some money (also definable and valued). This is how capitalism works!

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:20 AM
  #38
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
Like the classy move of honoring a confidentiality agreement? Or taking loophole money and holding out while refusing to sign with anyone but select teams that are willing to give you a huge raise?

My opinion is that the move being rumoured is not classless. Yeah, I might be wrong. And no I don't hate Comrie and would love him back. So we disagree again. No big deal.

BTW if you read the bottom two paragraphs of Brownlee's article it seems like Lowe just wants money from somewhere as part of the negotiation process...if you read that part first then the beginning of Brownlee's seems like pretty base speculation that Lowe is out to spite Comrie.
C'mon. Comrie used a loop hole to take money from a business, an organizqation, not Lowe personally. Let's not even go there.

The only only thing I don;'t blame K.lo for is trying to get back some money they've invested in Comrie. But not like this. Think of how this is going to look in the eyes of the 23 players on the Oilers' roster. I freakin hope Lowe knows what the hell he's doing.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:23 AM
  #39
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im not a businessman, but i would love to hear the opinions of those here on this board of course you might have already spoken.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:24 AM
  #40
The Rage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
C'mon. Comrie used a loop hole to take money from a business, an organizqation, not Lowe personally. Let's not even go there.
The money was ultimately coming from somebody's pocket, i.e. the owners. I don't see the point you're trying to make.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:25 AM
  #41
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1999 - Comrie tells Lowe to "pay me or I WILL play elsewhere" based on the CBA rules

2003 - Lowe tell Comrie "pay me and you CAN play elsewhere" based on the CBA rules

What go around comes around baby......

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:26 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
Like the classy move of honoring a confidentiality agreement? Or taking loophole money and holding out while refusing to sign with anyone but select teams that are willing to give you a huge raise?

My opinion is that the move being rumoured is not classless. Yeah, I might be wrong. And no I don't hate Comrie and would love him back. So we disagree again. No big deal.

BTW if you read the bottom two paragraphs of Brownlee's article it seems like Lowe just wants money from somewhere as part of the negotiation process...if you read that part first then the beginning of Brownlee's seems like pretty base speculation that Lowe is out to spite Comrie.

So to sum it up all we "know" is that money is part of the deal. I like the deal if it is Perry, 2004 1st and $2.5 in cold hard US greenbacks.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:26 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
Wait a minute. You're okay with the loophole contract because the CBA allows it? So what if there's nothing in the CBA that prohibits getting money from a player in order to trade him? Would you be okay with it then?

I'm not on any side here, but we don't know all the facts. I would go so far as to say we don't know any of the facts.
You're right about knowing all the facts. They might have had a deal with another team work out but Comrie would not sign with them. Maybe when Comrie's first contract was signed they had a understanding on his next one. Every case is different I doubt that we know all of the issues envolved.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:26 AM
  #44
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolguy3650
The money was ultimately coming from somebody's pocket, i.e. the owners. I don't see the point you're trying to make.
The owners have an obligation to pay the players. Ultimately, the owners have control on how they spend the money. They chose to invest in Comrie. I don't see the point you are trying to make.

Lowe is saying that if you want to earn a living, you must pay me $2.5M. That's not Blackmail?


Last edited by Yanner39: 12-10-2003 at 07:40 AM.
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Old
12-10-2003, 07:26 AM
  #45
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that about sums it up asiaoil. turnabout is fair play.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:27 AM
  #46
The Rage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohologo
No, it's not. It's a market based swap of assets. Comrie gets his rights traded to another team (a definable thing that holds value), and Lowe gets some money (also definable and valued). This is how capitalism works!
Although I'm on your side in the argument, I think your point is invalid. Consider this: What if I was forced to pay money (a thing that holds value) for incriminating picture of myself (a thing that also holds value). Technically, that's captialism, but that does not make it the ethical.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:28 AM
  #47
Slats432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
C'mon. Comrie used a loop hole to take money from a business, an organizqation, not Lowe personally. Let's not even go there.

The only only thing I don;'t blame K.lo for is trying to get back some money they've invested in Comrie. But not like this. Think of how this is going to look in the eyes of the 23 players on the Oilers' roster. I freakin hope Lowe knows what the hell he's doing.
This is something that everyone is forgetting. How are all of the other Oilers going to feel about this and how are all of the other players that the Oilers draft going to perceive working for a GM that on the surface will go to any lengths to put the screws to a player.

If the report is true, I think that Kevin Lowe isn't really enhancing Edmonton as a great place to play.

Players are a brethren and would have to say that they are likely to stick together on something like this. Again...if he was asking Bryan Murray for the money, then no problem. Asking the player "You had me over a barrell and now I have you..." Sure it isn't personal.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:31 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
Wait a minute. You're okay with the loophole contract because the CBA allows it? So what if there's nothing in the CBA that prohibits getting money from a player in order to trade him? Would you be okay with it then?
Yep. Sorry if I was unclear.

The CBA is a Bargaining Agreement. It isn't a rulebook defining morality. If a negotiating tactic is allowed in the CBA, it is fair game to exploit. If it works for Comrie it works for Lowe. That's the hideous beauty of such agreements.

Loopholes exist wherever the wording of agreements are loose or make implications previously unthought of. But, assuming Lowe's idea is even allowed (which I have no idea of, BTW), whose fault is it if the players didn't close that loophole when they agreed in good faith to it?

I'm all for so-called gentlemanly behaviour. That would be pleasant. But after Eagleson, such nicities have been thrown out the window and now negotiation is guided only by ruthless maximization of one's own best interests. Not very pleasant and I find it distasteful. When I was a child, hockey was fun and I didn't have a clue about the ruthless business part behind it all.

But the players have happily used the rules to their own advantage and sought out loopholes such as the signing bonuses for rookies and the Van Ryn loophole. How can loopholes then be denied to GMs? You can have gentlemen's agreements and you can have the CBA but not some arbitrary combination of the two where you decide to call parties classless whenever you happen to feel offended by their workings even if it complies with the CBA.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:45 AM
  #49
oilswell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
C'mon. Comrie used a loop hole to take money from a business, an organizqation, not Lowe personally. Let's not even go there.
What's your point? I dont recall Lowe asking for the money be transferred into his personal account. THAT would be extortion. If you're offended by the alleged negotiation tactic because Comrie isn't a faceless corporation, don't bother IMO. Comrie's well armed as he's packing a CBA and is backed by an NHLPA posse.

Quote:
Think of how this is going to look in the eyes of the 23 players on the Oilers' roster.
That's a serious concern, but lets not confuse bad managerial decisions with illegality or classlessness. You can disagree with this move for the future negotiation issues it raises, but it makes no sense use this complaint to try to justify an objection based on a notion of classlessness, lack of fairness, or being bush league.

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Old
12-10-2003, 07:46 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
This is something that everyone is forgetting. How are all of the other Oilers going to feel about this and how are all of the other players that the Oilers draft going to perceive working for a GM that on the surface will go to any lengths to put the screws to a player.

If the report is true, I think that Kevin Lowe isn't really enhancing Edmonton as a great place to play.

Players are a brethren and would have to say that they are likely to stick together on something like this. Again...if he was asking Bryan Murray for the money, then no problem. Asking the player "You had me over a barrell and now I have you..." Sure it isn't personal.
Disagree. I'd have to think the Oilers players are not exactly happy with Comrie right now, given his selfish position which is having an effect on his teammates in terms of their ability to win close games etc. Especially if it is true that he has been vetoing trades to other teams like NYI etc.

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