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Old
02-21-2007, 11:54 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
He would have been a better FIT IMO. We don't have a playmaker other then Hemsky and I think it's hurt Lupul to some degree. I think York playing with Lupul would be such an amazing fit, because first and foremost York fits with us better then he does with any other team in the league.
Lupul needs two things imo: a playmaker and a physical body that consistently takes the body and doesn't give the puck away (i.e. not Torres at this point in his career).

When Moreau comes back I'd like to see a Moreau - Horcoff - Lupul line. And a Smyth - Stoll - Hemsky line. Fill it out with Torres - Pouliot - Pisani and Jacques - Reasoner - Thoresen/Winchester. (I'm assuming Sykora will be traded by that point).

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02-21-2007, 11:56 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
Horcoff is 107th in the NHL in scoring.. is that 1st line C material?? I'm not even going to bring up his -10 because that stat doesn't always tell the true story.

I don't care about "tough minutes" that Horc defenders love to hold onto. It is about Results. A true first line C shouldn't be 107th in scoring.

If Horcoff is your #1 C and Smith and Staois are your 1 and 2 defensmen then it should be no surprise when you don't make the playoffs this year.
Let's make a big assumption for simplicity sake. Let's assume that first line wingers generally score at an identical rate to first line centers. That means between 30 teams, there are 90 first line forwards. Some second line players and power play specialists are going to be pretty high in points without bringing some of the other things to the table that you would expect a first liner to. Suddenly, when he's competing with those other 89 first liners, and the aforementioned second liners and specialists, 107th doesn't sound THAT bad. I'm sorry, but not every first line center is going to be top 10 in the league in scoring... critera like that would mean there are only 5 #1's around the league right now.

At my count, there are 38 centers outscoring Horcoff... and I definitely see several up there that I wouldn't trade Horcoff for.

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Old
02-21-2007, 11:56 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by 21Gator View Post
Is it MTL that is kicking tires? Did he mention teams?

I bet they are trying to dump Samsonov.
He didn't name teams, but he said he's been getting calls from a lot of teams. I would have to think Montreal is number 1. Atlanta, New Jersey, NYR, and NYI would be the other teams with a lot of interest. I know Atlanta and Jersey are right up against the cap but it wouldn't mean they don't have interest in the guy. If Montreal was interested I wouldn't bet they're trying to dump Samsonov. If they have good scouts, then those scouts would be telling Gainey to get Horcoff because he was so good when with Samsonov last season. Montreal makes perfect sense to me from both sides. It makes sense for us because they could be reaching the desperate point to overpay. Horc makes sense for them because he compliments talented players so well, has great chemistry with Sammy, and is such a gritty two way guy that they really lack. IF he was to be dealt.....Montreal would be the place.

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02-21-2007, 11:59 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Cloned View Post
Lupul needs two things imo: a playmaker and a physical body that consistently takes the body and doesn't give the puck away (i.e. not Torres at this point in his career).

When Moreau comes back I'd like to see a Moreau - Horcoff - Lupul line. And a Smyth - Stoll - Hemsky line. Fill it out with Torres - Pouliot - Pisani and Jacques - Reasoner - Thoresen/Winchester. (I'm assuming Sykora will be traded by that point).
I don't mind those lines, but Horcoff isn't that pure playmaker like York or Hemsky....and I think that is more of what Lupul needs. I agree with Moreau on that line, but maybe Pouliot??? Keep Horcoff on the big line where he's more comfortable, Stoll is great wherever you put him....

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02-22-2007, 12:02 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
I don't mind those lines, but Horcoff isn't that pure playmaker like York or Hemsky....and I think that is more of what Lupul needs. I agree with Moreau on that line, but maybe Pouliot??? Keep Horcoff on the big line where he's more comfortable, Stoll is great wherever you put him....
That's fine too. I keep forgetting about Pouliot's potential emergence as an all-around offensive player. There's hope yet for the future.

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02-22-2007, 12:12 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Cloned View Post
That's fine too. I keep forgetting about Pouliot's potential emergence as an all-around offensive player. There's hope yet for the future.
With the way the guy played at the start of the season, and how Parise is becoming a 30 goal 70 point guy this season, I really started thinking Lou beat the holy hell out of us in that deal....but our boys are starting a fierce comeback in the last 2 or 3weeks....not just Pouliot, Jacques looked a lot better last night, and a 4 goal game in the A never hurts things either!

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02-22-2007, 12:12 AM
  #107
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I don't think he's being shopped unless it's for a stud d-man.....he's the type of talent that will always get interest though. He's the type of guy I would be all over if I was Ken Holland
Me 2.

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02-22-2007, 01:17 AM
  #108
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I'd want to see a guy like Jokinen coming our way. I think the teams interested in Horcoff are probably Atlanta and Pittsburgh. I can't imagine what the return would have to be, but I don't think anyone will step to the plate with the necessary package.

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02-22-2007, 01:30 AM
  #109
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MAP will be better than Horcoff and I would even say he is as good as him right now.
Awesome.

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02-22-2007, 01:43 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
Horcoff is 107th in the NHL in scoring.. is that 1st line C material?? I'm not even going to bring up his -10 because that stat doesn't always tell the true story.

I don't care about "tough minutes" that Horc defenders love to hold onto. It is about Results. A true first line C shouldn't be 107th in scoring.

If Horcoff is your #1 C and Smith and Staois are your 1 and 2 defensmen then it should be no surprise when you don't make the playoffs this year.
A good point, although I liked Horcoff in the playoffs last year. Would the fatigue of the long playoff run last year have impacted his season this year? I don't know. Just askin'.

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Old
02-22-2007, 02:14 AM
  #111
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You don't trade Horcoff unless a young center like a Jeff Carter, Ryan Getzlaf, David Legwand, Stephen Weiss or Chris Higgins is coming back. Otherwise, there is no point. You'd just be creating another large hole on the team. Despite the fact that his hands of stone frustrate me at times, Horcoff can line up against the other team's top center and at times outplay them. And signing a free agent over the summer to fill the void is just wishful thinking unless it actually happens. We saw what happened this summer with defencemen.

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02-22-2007, 02:48 AM
  #112
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When Pronger left, Horcoff became the best all around player on this team. If you dont recognize that, you dont understand the game. Its not all about stats, which he has proven he can put up by the way.

It pains me to see so many "fans" knock his play constantly, without any merrit. After the growth he has shown the past two years, people on this board especially should be proud of him. He sure as hell didnt show many flashes of the game he has today in his first few years in the league.

He centers what on many nites is the toughest line in hockey to play against, and gives us an option that most teams dont have: to play our best line against their best line night in and nite out.

There will not be a major fire sale one year after coming one game from winning it all, it just dosnt make any sense. Horc stays, no doubt about it.

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02-22-2007, 02:55 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by KFO View Post
When Pronger left, Horcoff became the best all around player on this team. If you dont recognize that, you dont understand the game. Its not all about stats, which he has proven he can put up by the way.

It pains me to see so many "fans" knock his play constantly, without any merrit. After the growth he has shown the past two years, people on this board especially should be proud of him. He sure as hell didnt show many flashes of the game he has today in his first few years in the league.

He centers what on many nites is the toughest line in hockey to play against, and gives us an option that most teams dont have: to play our best line against their best line night in and nite out.

There will not be a major fire sale one year after coming one game from winning it all, it just dosnt make any sense. Horc stays, no doubt about it.
You know man, you just named every reason as to why Stoll could slip into his role. The kind of return you get for Horcoff would be incredible, and we have a guy....THAT IF HEALTHY....could take his minutes, a guy in Pouliot that's APPEARING like he could take Stoll's minutes, and a guy that's a good fit like Mike York that could be brought back for a dirt cheap price(1.5 mil a year). I'm a Horcoff fan, many on this site wouldn't believe it because I always point out the positive in dealing him, but I think it could create a situation where we would get an incredible return for the guy, it would give us more cap space to upgrade our blueline, more pieces that look tons better on draft day then they do now(picks and prospects), and simply more trading chips. In a cap world, with SOME players, you have to buy low sell high.

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02-22-2007, 02:59 AM
  #114
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THAT IF HEALTHY
Since Stoll isn't healthy, isn't it kind of a moot point then?

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02-22-2007, 04:02 AM
  #115
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Since Stoll isn't healthy, isn't it kind of a moot point then?
Oh, I didn't know it was career ending, good thing your here for us Ken Lowe.....man alanschu you're really hard up for the attention aren't you

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02-22-2007, 04:25 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
You know man, you just named every reason as to why Stoll could slip into his role. The kind of return you get for Horcoff would be incredible, and we have a guy....THAT IF HEALTHY....could take his minutes, a guy in Pouliot that's APPEARING like he could take Stoll's minutes, and a guy that's a good fit like Mike York that could be brought back for a dirt cheap price(1.5 mil a year). I'm a Horcoff fan, many on this site wouldn't believe it because I always point out the positive in dealing him, but I think it could create a situation where we would get an incredible return for the guy, it would give us more cap space to upgrade our blueline, more pieces that look tons better on draft day then they do now(picks and prospects), and simply more trading chips. In a cap world, with SOME players, you have to buy low sell high.
I definelty hear what you are saying, and you make some valid points. Assuming Stoll is healthy next year as you say and depending on the return (it would have to be pretty good, perhaps unrealistic) I would definelty consider moving him.

However, I think that if you have Horcoff, Stoll, Pouliot, and Reasoner down the middle you are strong and quite balanced. If you replace that with Stoll, Pouliot, York, Reasoner I think your weaker and run a lot of risk hoping that York returns to form and that Pouliot can learn to swim in the deep end, with just ~2M more in cap space as a result.

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02-22-2007, 04:50 AM
  #117
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Put me in the line of people who do ot think Horcoff is a tue number 1 centre and if the oilers could get say a top prospect and a number 1 pick--I say go for it

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02-22-2007, 05:14 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by graveyardshift View Post
Put me in the line of people who do ot think Horcoff is a tue number 1 centre and if the oilers could get say a top prospect and a number 1 pick--I say go for it
I'm with you on this one! Leave some space for a UFA signing of Gomez maybe.... thou he'd be too expensive for the Oil likely.

He'd be as close as possible to his hometown thou.

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Old
02-22-2007, 11:09 AM
  #119
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Oh god ... "Hemsky to Gomez, Gomez drops back to Hemksy, who feeds gomez a saucer pass. Gomez feeds hemsky in the slot and Hemsky ....back to Staios at the point." You get the picture.

Where is the finish?
That went out the window with Bustamaki....groan.

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02-22-2007, 12:40 PM
  #120
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Oh, I didn't know it was career ending, good thing your here for us Ken Lowe.....man alanschu you're really hard up for the attention aren't you
There's no point in trading Horcoff at the moment, since Stoll is hurt. Some figure for the season.

Who knows how it's like when/if he gets back. Worst case scenario is he's another Adam Deadmarsh.


But yeah, I'm just hard up for the attention. Thanks for giving it to me.

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02-22-2007, 02:59 PM
  #121
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But yeah, I'm just hard up for the attention. Thanks for giving it to me.
Is there a reason you feel this way?

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02-22-2007, 03:41 PM
  #122
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I'm so ronery.

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Old
02-22-2007, 03:50 PM
  #123
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I'm so ronery.
Kim jong Il, is that you?

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02-22-2007, 03:57 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by KFO View Post
When Pronger left, Horcoff became the best all around player on this team. If you dont recognize that, you dont understand the game. Its not all about stats, which he has proven he can put up by the way.

It pains me to see so many "fans" knock his play constantly, without any merrit. After the growth he has shown the past two years, people on this board especially should be proud of him. He sure as hell didnt show many flashes of the game he has today in his first few years in the league.

He centers what on many nites is the toughest line in hockey to play against, and gives us an option that most teams dont have: to play our best line against their best line night in and nite out.

There will not be a major fire sale one year after coming one game from winning it all, it just dosnt make any sense. Horc stays, no doubt about it.
Agreed... although Pisani and Stoll aren't far behind.

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02-22-2007, 04:05 PM
  #125
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Kim jong Il, is that you?
Hehehe

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