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12-09-2003, 04:27 AM
  #1
Mike8
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Koivu: Leadership "Issues"

Now that the Canadiens have played above and beyond their capabilities, does anyone still believe that Koivu's a problem in the dressing room? The sentiment that Koivu is not only a poor leader, but also a dividing factor in the lockerroom seems to have disappeared upon the recent successful streak.

Added to that, there are players like Hackett making statements such as: "they've got great leadership in that dressing room," as a reason why the Habs could outplay the Flyers for much of the game.

If you're the type that enjoys reading into statements and taking them at their word, then take the word of players that have been in the lockerroom; not some reporter who's never been a part of the Canadiens or experienced the Hab lockerroom.

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12-09-2003, 04:55 AM
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I think his shot block the other night, and the way he played against the 'big' Flyer centers says alot about Koivu. He stillis what he always was, a center rated from 15-20 in the league with durability questions.Questions about his character usually expose a different agenda.

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12-09-2003, 06:14 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Now that the Canadiens have played above and beyond their capabilities, does anyone still believe that Koivu's a problem in the dressing room? The sentiment that Koivu is not only a poor leader, but also a dividing factor in the lockerroom seems to have disappeared upon the recent successful streak.

Added to that, there are players like Hackett making statements such as: "they've got great leadership in that dressing room," as a reason why the Habs could outplay the Flyers for much of the game.

If you're the type that enjoys reading into statements and taking them at their word, then take the word of players that have been in the lockerroom; not some reporter who's never been a part of the Canadiens or experienced the Hab lockerroom.
I have admired Koivu as a hockey player since day one and as a person since his bout with cancer. He is unequivocally the Habs leader.

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12-09-2003, 06:42 AM
  #4
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I think Bégin has been a real sparkplug since Juneau's absence. His energy and hitting has been contagious. The improvement in Theo's and Rivet's play has also helped everyone look better. It's a combination of factors that have seen everyone play together and everyone show more courage and unity than before.

The recent winning streak doesn't say anything more about Koivu's leadership than the losing streak before that.

Koivu can't do it all by himself. Certainly he has been a huge factor but like Mike8 said so often it's all about overall leadership. Everyone must contribute on and off the ice. Koivu has always done everything he could to help the team win. The difference is now that he hasn't had to carry the team on his back (which he can't do, only a handful of players can).

Has Koivu united the team ? Maybe. Have the players started wondering what they could do to help the team win and stopped looking at Koivu to do everything ? Certainly.

Next game is gonna be a huge test. I think it's now that you're gonna see Koivu's leadership. Is the team going to fold because of last game's heart breaking loss ? I hope they don't cuz they've got nothing to be ashamed about in last game's performance (on the other hand ... the flyers ).

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12-09-2003, 06:45 AM
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The silence on the issue (or should I say non-issue) of Koivu's leadership is deafening. Not surprising really, the windbags in the Montréal/QC media have always had the uncanny ability to forget their baseless criticisms.

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12-09-2003, 07:00 AM
  #6
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Koivu has been playing much better recently, and so has the team obviously, so did he say something in the room? we don't know

but i've been a fan of his for a while and think he's a good leader
he's been through a lot throughout his career, battled injuries,cancer,etc...

as long as the Habs play like this, I don't think there is a problem

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12-09-2003, 08:53 AM
  #7
Joe Maximum
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we win and all of a sudden koivu is a leader... We lose and the trade koivu threads go wild....


buncha sheep if you ask me...

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12-09-2003, 08:59 AM
  #8
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Coincidentally, the "overall leadership" comes in when Audette and Juneau are out...

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12-09-2003, 09:03 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Maximum
we win and all of a sudden koivu is a leader... We lose and the trade koivu threads go wild....


buncha sheep if you ask me...
These are the types of posts/posters we need to cut down on these forums. Nothing constructive. If you'd like, check out my post history and see how many times I've chopped down Koivu's leadership capabilities. You can check threads I made regarding my feelings on Koivu's leadership capabilities during the Habs' losing streaks as well.

BTW, the Habs lost last night, so there is no "we win and all of a sudden koivu is a leader."

I think if you checked up on McPhee, habfan4 and Habsolution, you'd find the same consistency in support of Koivu's leadership capabilities as they've shown here. This thread is merely to call out those that have spent the past few weeks bashing Koivu due to a losing streak and looking for a scapegoat, rather than try to make Koivu seem like a great leader. All those that slandered Koivu have since disappeared or remained silent on this topic.

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12-09-2003, 09:06 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Maximum
we win and all of a sudden koivu is a leader... We lose and the trade koivu threads go wild....


buncha sheep if you ask me...
Partially true, it is very obvious of the simple divide among hab fans. Much is media related, and dare I say it, language related. This is basically a response to all the crap that was spewed about the Captain.

Mike8 is a great poster, has always been a Koivu backer, at least from my recollection. There are many like him, including myself. If you keep an eye on the threads about trading Koivu or questioning his leadership, they are usually the same people who quote many of the French media as sources of proof, a French media who for the most part has a hidden agenda (well not really hidden because everyone knows it).

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12-09-2003, 09:11 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger
Coincidentally, the "overall leadership" comes in when Audette and Juneau are out...
And when Begin and Souray take even larger roles on the club.

The more intensity, hard-hitting, consistent players brought into the lineup, the better and more consistently the club (as a whole, including the soft and inconsistent, but creative offensive players such as Ribeiro) will perform.

Montreal has a tremendous opportunity for rebuilding here. Koivu's an outstanding talent, and a core player for any team in this league. Better yet, he's a 'home-grown' talent in that he was drafted, developed, and groomed here in Montreal. The fans love him (on the whole), and most importantly he seems to genuinely enjoy playing here. Koivu's a warrior and a player the team can build around.

This off-season will be huge in determining the future of this club. The signings, possible buyouts, and investment in youth will prove whether this franchise is aiming towards a proper rebuilding around Koivu or whether it's looking to maintain the mediocrity we've endured for years. But there's no question in my mind that the rebuilding process revolves around Koivu, and not around all the future talent that makes fans salivate...

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12-09-2003, 09:26 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
The signings, possible buyouts, and investment in youth will prove whether this franchise is aiming towards a proper rebuilding around Koivu or whether it's looking to maintain the mediocrity we've endured for years. But there's no question in my mind that the rebuilding process revolves around Koivu, and not around all the future talent that makes fans salivate...
I think they're probably looking to ensure that the club maintains it's mediocrity.

As for Koivu, a serious rebuild would never have as its centerpiece a small, brittle cancer survivor who's (relatively) soon to be a free agent. If all kinds of great things happen within two years, Koivu will likely be a big part of it, but there's no GM anywhere dumb enough to look at Koivu as the centerpiece of any serious rebuild....

The keys to this clubs rebuild are Souray, Markov, Komisarek, Hainsey and a handful of forwards and forward prospects. Anything we get out of Koivu between now and 2006 should probably be considered a bonus.

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12-09-2003, 09:26 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
And when Begin and Souray take even larger roles on the club.

The more intensity, hard-hitting, consistent players brought into the lineup, the better and more consistently the club (as a whole, including the soft and inconsistent, but creative offensive players such as Ribeiro) will perform.

Montreal has a tremendous opportunity for rebuilding here. Koivu's an outstanding talent, and a core player for any team in this league. Better yet, he's a 'home-grown' talent in that he was drafted, developed, and groomed here in Montreal. The fans love him (on the whole), and most importantly he seems to genuinely enjoy playing here. Koivu's a warrior and a player the team can build around.

This off-season will be huge in determining the future of this club. The signings, possible buyouts, and investment in youth will prove whether this franchise is aiming towards a proper rebuilding around Koivu or whether it's looking to maintain the mediocrity we've endured for years. But there's no question in my mind that the rebuilding process revolves around Koivu, and not around all the future talent that makes fans salivate...
Agree with all you just said..

What I wanted to point out is that with more "coachable players", we're playing better. Juneau and Audette are vets that mind their own business and speak their minds a bit too much for my liking.

Juneau becomes a UFA at season's end and I was scared that he'd come back next year... thank god we grabbed Begin. He should be our 3rd line center for many years to come!

Gratton for the 4th line? Or should he stay put in Hamilton, providing the team with grit, experience, skills and a winning atmosphere...

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12-09-2003, 09:32 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JV
I think they're probably looking to ensure that the club maintains it's mediocrity.

As for Koivu, a serious rebuild would never have as its centerpiece a small, brittle cancer survivor who's (relatively) soon to be a free agent. If all kinds of great things happen within two years, Koivu will likely be a big part of it, but there's no GM anywhere dumb enough to look at Koivu as the centerpiece of any serious rebuild....

The keys to this clubs rebuild are Souray, Markov, Komisarek, Hainsey and a handful of forwards and forward prospects. Anything we get out of Koivu between now and 2006 should probably be considered a bonus.
I'm pretty sure Koivu's going to sign here still after he breaks into UFAgency. He always was treated well by the organisation, he always was tendered of raises, no matter if he wasn't playing much that season, due to injury (10% raises). He's a GOD here and has had to go through al the years of mediocrity, I'm pretty sure he'll want to stay here and win here...

A serious rebuild can be around a guy like Koivu... grit, warrior's mentality, skilled (one of the top-15 C), experienced but not too old, he's a great example for the kids and plays both ends of the ice well. What more do you want? Size?...

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12-09-2003, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLger
Coincidentally, the "overall leadership" comes in when Audette and Juneau are out...
nothing to do with that ; it's since the players 've had their inside meeting ( without staff ) , and since Julien have benched players like Perreault ,Quintal and cie.
After that you can add the leadership of BEGIN , who is playing with so much intensity that everybody is giving more now .

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12-09-2003, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash13
Partially true, it is very obvious of the simple divide among hab fans. Much is media related, and dare I say it, language related. This is basically a response to all the crap that was spewed about the Captain.

Mike8 is a great poster, has always been a Koivu backer, at least from my recollection. There are many like him, including myself. If you keep an eye on the threads about trading Koivu or questioning his leadership, they are usually the same people who quote many of the French media as sources of proof, a French media who for the most part has a hidden agenda (well not really hidden because everyone knows it).

are you able Nash13 to post something without using the word FRENCH on it ? it is difficult to be objective and to show respect with kind of post, because it may easily become insulting for the french members like me .

thanks a lot !


Last edited by goalchenyuk: 12-09-2003 at 09:52 AM.
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12-09-2003, 09:54 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JV
As for Koivu, a serious rebuild would never have as its centerpiece a small, brittle cancer survivor who's (relatively) soon to be a free agent. If all kinds of great things happen within two years, Koivu will likely be a big part of it, but there's no GM anywhere dumb enough to look at Koivu as the centerpiece of any serious rebuild....

The keys to this clubs rebuild are Souray, Markov, Komisarek, Hainsey and a handful of forwards and forward prospects. Anything we get out of Koivu between now and 2006 should probably be considered a bonus.
Koivu is not the centerpiece of the rebuild and I never claimed he should be. I do think the rebuild needs to revolve around Koivu. Perhaps arguing semantics here, but what I mean is that a good rebuilding movement needs a warrior with very good skill and work ethic for the kids to learn from, and play with. The creativity, intensity and work ethic will be passed on.

Markov's one of many young players who've made comments stating they love playing hockey with highly skilled players. Koivu's that player that can keep the youth motivated, he can keep the intensity up through each game and help the youth establish the consistency that he's developed over the years.

In that way, Montreal has an excellent opportunity with Koivu to rebuild properly.

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12-09-2003, 09:59 AM
  #18
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After the Washington game, there was a team meeting with Gainey present. Since then we have just simply been a different team.

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12-09-2003, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
are you able Nash13 to post something without using the word FRENCH on it ? it is difficult to be objective and to show respect with kind of post, because it may easily become insulting for the french members like me .

thanks a lot !
Si tu veux fonctionner avec des oeillères, c'est ton choix. Je ne crois pas que de dire les vrais choses soit mal. Rivet n'est pas aimé des médias français. Pourquoi est-ce que tu te sentirais insulté par ça?

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12-09-2003, 10:16 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
are you able Nash13 to post something without using the word FRENCH on it ? it is difficult to be objective and to show respect with kind of post, because it may easily become insulting for the french members like me .

thanks a lot !
Well, frankly if you are insulted by what I said, then I wonder how you can get through every day life.

The truth is, there is an OBVIOUS divide among hab fans especially regarding Koivu. A lot has to do with the media which includes a language issue. If you are willing to turn a blind eye to it, fine, but you are fooling yourself if you think its not an issue and a factor that adds fuel to the fire.

Fact is, when talking about Koivu and perceptions about his leadership, language and media are going to come up. Why, because writers have agendas which are revolve around language a player speaks, people quote such people as so called proof, and frankly, many people take what these people say as gospel truth.

If you don't see, keep living in blissful ignorance.

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12-09-2003, 10:26 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Now that the Canadiens have played above and beyond their capabilities, does anyone still believe that Koivu's a problem in the dressing room? The sentiment that Koivu is not only a poor leader, but also a dividing factor in the lockerroom seems to have disappeared upon the recent successful streak.

Added to that, there are players like Hackett making statements such as: "they've got great leadership in that dressing room," as a reason why the Habs could outplay the Flyers for much of the game.

If you're the type that enjoys reading into statements and taking them at their word, then take the word of players that have been in the lockerroom; not some reporter who's never been a part of the Canadiens or experienced the Hab lockerroom.
Never doughted him, he's the heart and soul of the team.

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12-09-2003, 11:10 AM
  #22
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He is our best player and head's above anybody else on this team. In heart and character. Not bad for a guy who is treated shabbily at times when things are going wrong with the team. And you know who you are!!!!!!!!

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12-09-2003, 11:51 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
These are the types of posts/posters we need to cut down on these forums. Nothing constructive. If you'd like, check out my post history and see how many times I've chopped down Koivu's leadership capabilities. You can check threads I made regarding my feelings on Koivu's leadership capabilities during the Habs' losing streaks as well.

BTW, the Habs lost last night, so there is no "we win and all of a sudden koivu is a leader."

I think if you checked up on McPhee, habfan4 and Habsolution, you'd find the same consistency in support of Koivu's leadership capabilities as they've shown here. This thread is merely to call out those that have spent the past few weeks bashing Koivu due to a losing streak and looking for a scapegoat, rather than try to make Koivu seem like a great leader. All those that slandered Koivu have since disappeared or remained silent on this topic.

The post was not directed at you It was intended to all the people who posted in the the koivu bashing threads before they come here and post. I love koivu and was not trying to insult you. I am simply pointing out the fact that all the koivu bashers will either be silent or be hypocrites. If you thought the post was directed at you, you are just way to suceptible. The people this post was aimed at was not you or any of the posters you've listed. The people it was directed to know who they are, and will probably react less than you have ...

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12-09-2003, 12:06 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Maximum
The post was not directed at you It was intended to all the people who posted in the the koivu bashing threads before they come here and post. I love koivu and was not trying to insult you. I am simply pointing out the fact that all the koivu bashers will either be silent or be hypocrites. If you thought the post was directed at you, you are just way to suceptible. The people this post was aimed at was not you or any of the posters you've listed. The people it was directed to know who they are, and will probably react less than you have ...
I don't think he was answering to you. He was adding to your post by saying the people you despise (koivu bashers in hiding) are the people we need less of.

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12-09-2003, 12:19 PM
  #25
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As Habsolution said I don't think the winning streak or losing streak say as much about Koivu's leadership skills as people think. There are a couple of factors which i believe have contributed to the team recently playing with a little more intensity. In no particular order - the closed door meeting, the play of Begin, the decisions made by Julien with regards to healthy scratches. All 3 factors which I believe are forcing players to look at themselves in the mirror and know that they are accountable. For the first time in a while the players seem committed to each other.

As for Koivu's leadership. Where there is smoke there is fire. While I agree that much of the smoke is caused by the media the issue has been dogging the Habs for too long. The knock on Koivu is that he cannot bring the gang together. Perhaps it is not his style and he only knows to lead by example. He may not be the type of leader who will get in your face. Not everyone is a Mark Messier. Perhaps when someone else finally stands up in the room (and maybe it's happened) then we will hear less about Koivu's leadership problems.

It is entirely possible that the divide between the players has nothing to do with Koivu's leadership skills and everything to do with the way the organization has allowed players to constantly cheat themselves and the fans with a continous sub par effort. There has been no accountability on this team for too long. Perhaps the recent happenings have forced ALL the players to look at themselves. There is only so much a person can do in terms of leadership. If there is no accountability then there is anarchy.

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