HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

If Wayne Gretzky were Russian

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-24-2007, 02:18 AM
  #51
sparr0w
Registered User
 
sparr0w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
And certainly not with you here.

But then again,you want to hear little ditties like..........."oh please help us mommy,we'd never get that kind of respect here in this league because we're not from the right side of the tracks"

Because that's what you want to see here,just like i said was the underlying
purpose of the whole thread.

It's for guys like you and your type.


Enjoy!! but don't say anyone can't dispute what they say and call it for what it is.
You're living proof.
I don't have a dog in this fight.

The thread title intrigued me so I checked in and noticed you've done anything and everything in your power to shout down a potentially interesting discussion. Wayne is/was a great Canadian hockey figure. Nothing anyone here says can take that away from you, so what are you so uptight about?

sparr0w is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 03:38 AM
  #52
Wisent
Registered User
 
Wisent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Mannheim
Country: Germany
Posts: 3,667
vCash: 500
He would have played in the Russian army system which probably would have cut his career short by a fair margin.

Wisent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 08:22 AM
  #53
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YMB29 View Post
2005? Canada did not even beat the Soviets in 91. And how many of these wins were clean and against the best Soviet teams (since you seem to only want to talk about what you think is best vs. best)?
I can do this too. What about 74, 79, 81, 82, 89? No controversy with these Soviet wins against very good or the best Canadian teams.


So to you, Canada won the games in 87 fairly with no controversy? Koharski was neutral in his officiating and did a good job?
Pointing out those numerous bad calls/no-calls won't change the result, but it will change the way people look at Canadian "wins" and Canadian vs. Soviet hockey.
i thought you were told to knock it off?.I'd respond to all this bs you just wrote but have been advised to let you be.

P.S: 2005,2004........world cup?whenever it precisely was.Again,were have you been,oh i forgot...............when you lose you don't remember or it was cheating.


Last edited by espo*: 02-24-2007 at 09:05 AM.
espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 08:29 AM
  #54
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogu View Post
Noone will change the results but the truth is Soviet hockey was equal to Canadian hockey during the 70's and 80's. The Canadian team never swept the soviets, the games were tight.

And please change your avatar, it is just plain nonsense (remember Canada Cup '81?).
What was the final result now again?

Also at least one of those wins by team Canada was smuthered by dirty plays
In '72 Bobby Clarke slashes Valeri Kharlamov breaking/fracturing his ankle (the soviets were about to walk away with the series until that point). The canadian assistant coach later was quoted that he had requested Clarke to slash Kharlamov, great sportsmanship there.

I'm not pro-canadian or pro-soviet I just know great hockey when I see it.

As for the thread: if Gretzky would have been russian with the same acomplishments he would still be recognized as the greatest player ever, why would his citizenship make a difference? I really hope I'm not being naive with that statement.
I'm not changing my avatar,there is nothing wrong with it.The Soviets just plain old cheated the system in order to bully up on inferior squads and keep their real top opponent out of the games because they were too scared to face them and what might be the result.They manipulated and cheated the system andIt's a disgrace to international hockey and someday hopefully the I.O.C. will get around to rightfully stripping them of a pile of those gold medals,gold medals that are a complete farce and disgrace and an insult to the real amatuers that were there competing under the existing rules.You're talking about dirty plays and yet you just ignore years of dirty sportsmanship on the part of the Soviet teams,why so selective if you are the non-partisan angel you claim to be?

if you called it straight down the line i'd give what you say in your post weight but you don't.

The old Soviet Empire would have been happy taking on midget level teams in the olympics if they could have rigged it that way,as it was they came pretty close.lol..........and could'nt even win them all.

The truth hurts


Last edited by espo*: 02-24-2007 at 08:41 AM.
espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 08:32 AM
  #55
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
I don't have a dog in this fight.

The thread title intrigued me so I checked in and noticed you've done anything and everything in your power to shout down a potentially interesting discussion. Wayne is/was a great Canadian hockey figure. Nothing anyone here says can take that away from you, so what are you so uptight about?
An interesting discussion? I know why you think it would be interesting.

what would his legacy be if he was Russian? why not just ask what his legacy would be if he was Cambodian.



it's a thread camouflaged to take shots and nothing more,no matter what you say.


Last edited by espo*: 02-24-2007 at 08:38 AM.
espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 08:45 AM
  #56
RorschachWJK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuusamo
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
An interesting discussion? I know why you think it would be interesting.

what would his legacy be if he was Russian? why not just ask what his legacy would be if he was Cambodian.



it's a thread camouflaged to take shots and nothing more,no matter what you say.
You've gone downhill pretty badly I see. What in the living hell is your problem with this discussion? Many people find it interesting, including myself. Take a break and cool off a bit will you.

RorschachWJK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 09:03 AM
  #57
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boucicaut View Post
You've gone downhill pretty badly I see. What in the living hell is your problem with this discussion? Many people find it interesting, including myself. Take a break and cool off a bit will you.
Bouciat,you're a good guy,a fair guy usually.

But i and you know you simply love Soviet era hockey.That's fine,i have no problem with that.But it's a thread that is just an opportunity to whine and attempt to entrench a "we're foreigners" attitude and that's all.You could see it within the first four posts and you know it.

Would the Canadian dominated nhl hockey loving public love gretzky the same way if he was Russian?..........of course not.Would the Russian hockey loving public love Kharlamov the same way if he were Canadian? of course not. You're not a stupid guy,you can answer the question in your head without even making the thread.So can everybody here.Good lord.

So why bother? To give some Russian team and player fans a chance to moan about it and "prove" in public they are'nt us? i'd say that's what is interesting about it for some guys(you included) because it sure as heck could'nt be that it's a real question of whether Russian players could be national heroes in Canada and vice versa.Talk about common sense.

Cmon B-man.You know better.

let's stick to threads that have some real interest and ability for good discussion.We already all know the world is round.

But i'll give you this,if i start a thread about whether people think the Soviet eras teams should have their gold medals taken back since they were competting as amateurs and really were'nt(certainly an interesting and legitimate thread)........and no-one says it should be banned because it's inflamatory,i'll take back everything i wrote here.

of course,i would'nt bother to make a thread like that here.But if i did,I wonder how many many guys(you included) would think that thread was interesting and legitimate regardless of how many wanted to discuss it?

If it bothered you and you said so..................am i o.k in telling you to cool it because it's just an interesting discussion? can i suggest you're going downhill?

Hmm.


Last edited by espo*: 02-24-2007 at 09:14 AM.
espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 09:12 AM
  #58
LamborGREENie
Registered User
 
LamborGREENie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,052
vCash: 500
Are we talking about Vyacheslav Gritzkyof...

LamborGREENie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 09:12 AM
  #59
farzamk*
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to farzamk* Send a message via Yahoo to farzamk*
if gretzky were russian, we'd be screwed in canada cups.

farzamk* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 10:28 AM
  #60
David Puddy
Registered User
 
David Puddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New Jersey, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,824
vCash: 500
Had Wayne Gretzky been born in the Soviet Union in 1961 instead Canada, I think he would have had his talent developed in a very similar fashion. Gretzky would have been ideal for the Soviet School's stress on puck-possession.

Gretzky wouldn't have entered the NHL until he was three months shy of his 29th birthday. He wouldn't have had the time to rewrite the NHL record book, especially because his most productive years were in his early to mid 20's.

I think there would be debates of who was the greatest player ever between Gordie Howe or Bobby Orr and the Russian Gretzky. Some might site the fact that all his great numbers in the Soviet League came while playing on the powerhouse CSKA teams.

I have often wondered what would have become of Wayne Gretzky if he had been born in the United States in 1961, especially a warmer climate region. His natural ability would still be present, but he would not have had the great development chances the he had in Canada.

I guess baseball would have been a better option. I have heard an interview with a 14-year old would be Great One in which he says that he would like to be either a professional hockey player or baseball player.

David Puddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 11:27 AM
  #61
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Rostov-on-Don
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 10,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Would the Canadian dominated nhl hockey loving public love gretzky the same way if he was Russian?..........of course not.Would the Russian hockey loving public love Kharlamov the same way if he were Canadian? of course not. You're not a stupid guy,you can answer the question in your head without even making the thread.So can everybody here.Good lord.

So why bother? To give some Russian team and player fans a chance to moan about it and "prove" in public they are'nt us? i'd say that's what is interesting about it for some guys(you included) because it sure as heck could'nt be that it's a real question of whether Russian players could be national heroes in Canada and vice versa.Talk about common sense.
You seem to be the only North American who takes issue with this thread....maybe it says something about you.

If it's an attempt to flame, let the mods deal with it. It's not your job nor is it your right to highjack a thread where you dislike the topic. There is some good discussion here regarless if you think it's 'common sense'.

Your an intelligent poster cyclops, and we've had some good debates but quit acting like a 6 year old. Quit being a


Last edited by Zine: 02-24-2007 at 11:32 AM.
Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 12:17 PM
  #62
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You seem to be the only North American who takes issue with this thread....maybe it says something about you.

If it's an attempt to flame, let the mods deal with it. It's not your job nor is it your right to highjack a thread where you dislike the topic. There is some good discussion here regarless if you think it's 'common sense'.

Your an intelligent poster cyclops, and we've had some good debates but quit acting like a 6 year old. Quit being a
Fire away then zine.

Now,it's time to start discussing some other things around here,things that could use discussing i think.

let's talk

I'll be bringing them up soon.

espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 12:20 PM
  #63
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
His grandfather (Walter's dad) was Russian I believe. With a name like Gretzky that isnt from Saskatoon either.

But if Gretzky was Russian you'd have to think he'd replace Larionov on the KLM line. Can you imagine him centering Krutov and Makarov? Wow.
Belarus I believe. I also believe he is an ethic Pole.

Psycho Papa Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 01:51 PM
  #64
YMB29
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 422
vCash: 500
Quote:
P.S: 2005,2004........world cup?whenever it precisely was.Again,were have you been,oh i forgot...............when you lose you don't remember or it was cheating
We are talking about USSR vs. Canada.


Quote:
I'm not changing my avatar,there is nothing wrong with it.The Soviets just plain old cheated the system in order to bully up on inferior squads and keep their real top opponent out of the games because they were too scared to face them and what might be the result.They manipulated and cheated the system andIt's a disgrace to international hockey and someday hopefully the I.O.C. will get around to rightfully stripping them of a pile of those gold medals,gold medals that are a complete farce and disgrace and an insult to the real amatuers that were there competing under the existing rules.
What are you talking about? The Olympics? How did they manipulate the I.O.C?


Quote:
You're talking about dirty plays and yet you just ignore years of dirty sportsmanship on the part of the Soviet teams?
A Canadian fan criticizing the Soviets for their sportsmanship?


Quote:
The old Soviet Empire would have been happy taking on midget level teams in the olympics if they could have rigged it that way,as it was they came pretty close.lol..........and could'nt even win them all.

The truth hurts
No they made non-midget level teams look midget level at times. You should know this.

YMB29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 01:59 PM
  #65
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
yes of course ymb.

Gospel.

yes,yes.I hope that makes you happy

espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 03:36 PM
  #66
ScaredStreit
Registered User
 
ScaredStreit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 8,060
vCash: 807
No way. It's MUCH harder to market stars that aren't North American. That's just because they're a lot more like our culture in the way they speak, look and all of that. There's nothing wrong with the europeans or anyone, it's just naturally more difficult to market them because of that reason.

ScaredStreit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-24-2007, 11:37 PM
  #67
rogu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
You're talking about dirty plays and yet you just ignore years of dirty sportsmanship on the part of the Soviet teams,why so selective if you are the non-partisan angel you claim to be?
Here is were I have a problem, I am absolutely not pro-soviet, I'm a Finn, it's not like we had the biggest bouts against the USSR in a hockey rink fighting for some gold medals.

Secondly I'm only taking Canada-USSR games into account, because they were the only teams on par with each other.

All those Canada vs USSR games were political and were given more meaning than they actually had. The players on both sides also had this "this is not only a hockey game" mentality going into the games, back then the results could only be ugly and even today just speaking about those games the result is still ugly. Hell after all, it is just hockey.

rogu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2007, 12:05 AM
  #68
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,412
vCash: 500
Cyclops, I was also telling you to knock it off.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Nalyd Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2007, 12:30 AM
  #69
Default101
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,064
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyKiller View Post
Would he still hold the same place in history?
if he came to the NHL at 18 and did exactly what he did being from canada he would hold the same place, he wouldn't be as liked among canadian fans as much, and may not have gotten nearly as much publicity outside the actual hockey, but in the hockey world i don't see why not, i don't think fans are really judgemental of where a player is from, but it's hard to see a guy from the czech republic for example being one of the best in the history becasue very very few of them started their careers at 18, 19 in the NHL right off the bat, most have stayed in their own country for awhile..

Default101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2007, 06:02 AM
  #70
Randall Graves*
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 18,621
vCash: 500
Well let's even hypothetically say he is Russian, and comes to the states at age 20, instead of being in his late 20's(and how much of a difference would the culture shock be?) at the timeline you provided after the fall of the USSR.

I DO think Canadians would view him a tad differently as a group, just for the simple fact that he's meant alot to the country, he wouldn't be the countries icon or anything.

Also I don't think his all time scoring lead would be nearly as big, he'd still be the all time leading scorer, but he would've had more years vs goalies with bigger equiptment and the 90's early 00's version dead puck era.


Edit: post directed to god bless canada

Randall Graves* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2007, 06:17 AM
  #71
Randall Graves*
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 18,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
It's just a thread camouflaged in such a way as to give some fans a license to take some shots and whine.

You can see it a mile away.
It is not, we all know the big rivalry with Canada vs Russia, but this can be looked at in a few ways.

Either including the obstacles that Russian players at the time had, or just slapping him with a Russian nationality and keeping everything else intact.

My personal belief is that he wouldn't be the games global icon under either scenario. It probably would've been Lemieux(especially if he could've always been healthy) or Orr.

Randall Graves* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2007, 08:15 AM
  #72
espo*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Cyclops, I was also telling you to knock it off.
Yeah and i did.

I let it go,you asked,i obliged.

I've done my part.


Last edited by espo*: 02-25-2007 at 08:22 AM.
espo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2007, 11:54 PM
  #73
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Yeah and i did.

I let it go,you asked,i obliged.

I've done my part.
Except you keep beating the same drum. No matter who the partner, it's the same song and dance.

You aren't open to discussion when it comes to international hockey. You are simply contrarian to European hockey fans. And in doing so, all you do is block real discussion from happening.

Nalyd Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2007, 01:02 AM
  #74
RorschachWJK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuusamo
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops View Post
Bouciat,you're a good guy,a fair guy usually.

But i and you know you simply love Soviet era hockey.That's fine,i have no problem with that.But it's a thread that is just an opportunity to whine and attempt to entrench a "we're foreigners" attitude and that's all.You could see it within the first four posts and you know it.

Would the Canadian dominated nhl hockey loving public love gretzky the same way if he was Russian?..........of course not.Would the Russian hockey loving public love Kharlamov the same way if he were Canadian? of course not. You're not a stupid guy,you can answer the question in your head without even making the thread.So can everybody here.Good lord.

So why bother? To give some Russian team and player fans a chance to moan about it and "prove" in public they are'nt us? i'd say that's what is interesting about it for some guys(you included) because it sure as heck could'nt be that it's a real question of whether Russian players could be national heroes in Canada and vice versa.Talk about common sense.

Cmon B-man.You know better.

let's stick to threads that have some real interest and ability for good discussion.We already all know the world is round.

But i'll give you this,if i start a thread about whether people think the Soviet eras teams should have their gold medals taken back since they were competting as amateurs and really were'nt(certainly an interesting and legitimate thread)........and no-one says it should be banned because it's inflamatory,i'll take back everything i wrote here.

of course,i would'nt bother to make a thread like that here.But if i did,I wonder how many many guys(you included) would think that thread was interesting and legitimate regardless of how many wanted to discuss it?

If it bothered you and you said so..................am i o.k in telling you to cool it because it's just an interesting discussion? can i suggest you're going downhill?

Hmm.
Thanks for the compliment. I think you used to be more objective about international hockey in the past and I considered you as a fair guy too. At some point you seemed to let some Russian posters get under your skin though.

Anyhow, I don't see this as a whining thread at all. Speculation is to a large part what we do here at HFboards and this is a delicious topic. Likewise it's interesting to think what would have become of Kharlamov, for example, had his parents left Soviet Union in the 60'ies.

These types of discussions are always interesting for people like myself who enjoy 'what if' questions. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_history

RorschachWJK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2007, 01:21 AM
  #75
Birko19
Registered User
 
Birko19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Hamilton, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,107
vCash: 500
If he was't Canadian I think guys like Orr, Mario, and Howe would have a stronger argument for being the best of all-time, specially Orr and Mario.

Birko19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.