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From unimpressive juniors to impressive NHLer?

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Old
12-11-2003, 12:38 AM
  #1
Gwyddbwyll
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From unimpressive juniors to impressive NHLer?

We've all seen the prospect who scored over a PPG rate in Canadian juniors or even the NCAA.. yet are now scratching a living in the minor leagues. Is there an opposite..?

What Im asking is - are there examples of a player who was unremarkable in juniors or the NCAA (put an arbitrary figure on it.. less than a PPG rate say) yet blossomed into a solid NHL pro? Or is it now a pre-requiste to score at a pretty high rate to be considered a legitimate NHL prospect at all?

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12-11-2003, 12:44 AM
  #2
Jacob
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Does Dave Scatchard fall into this category? I don't know why, but his juniors statistics are really mediocre.

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Old
12-11-2003, 01:42 AM
  #3
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Steve Thomas seems to be a great example of a player with mediocre junior stats who made it big. He didn't even play a full season of junior hockey until he was 19 and only had 38 points in 61 games. He bumped it up to 105 points in 70 games the next year but that's still hardly impressive for a 20 year old. The next year he tore up the AHL with 90 points in 64 games. The rest is history.

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Old
12-11-2003, 01:52 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Does Dave Scatchard fall into this category? I don't know why, but his juniors statistics are really mediocre.
That's the first name that came to my head too. Scatchard scored 7 more goals last season in the NHL than he did in his best junior season.

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12-11-2003, 06:47 AM
  #5
Doomsday Device
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This is an interesting question, but it's difficult to find players that fit because players can spend four years in both junior and the NCAA and so mostly everyone eventually figures out how to score. The best I can think of is Pascal Dupuis who put up 24 pts in 44 gms as a 17 year old and 46 pts in 67 gms as an 18 year old. He put up points as a 19 year old and overager but that's fairly common.

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12-11-2003, 09:17 AM
  #6
Hossa
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Erik Cole didn't have more than 42 points (in 36 games) in any of his college seasons. His other two seasons (1st and 3rd seasons), he was below a point a game.

Jason King didn't even play in junior until he was 18 (already had one draft eligible season gone) and only scored 3 goals and 10 points in 53 games this first year. Then he busted out for 48 goals and 89 points the following season.

Mark Rycroft is another one who didn't score much in college but is now playing and well in the NHL.

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12-11-2003, 10:47 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hossa
Erik Cole didn't have more than 42 points (in 36 games) in any of his college seasons.
that's still a PPG... I don't know how that doesn't qualify as good or impressive or whatever.

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12-11-2003, 11:16 AM
  #8
Gwyddbwyll
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Dave Scatchard is perfect thanks. Are there any others? Thomas is from another era!

Cole, Dupuis and King are interesting but they are more prospects that panned out better than expected and they did manage some PPG + seasons.

Rycroft also fits.. just. Surely there are more?

I do have an ulterior motive as well as a genuine interest in the topic. Ben Eager is no scoring demon even though he is showing a lot of progress and if any prospect has a hard time even reaching PPG then its hard to consider them a good prospect. Eager is often compared to Brad May who had a far far superior record in juniors and is only a useful NHL grinder.

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12-11-2003, 11:33 AM
  #9
Jacob
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Konstantin Koltsov scored 2 goals in his final season in Russia.

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Old
12-11-2003, 11:38 AM
  #10
Hossa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkymoses
that's still a PPG... I don't know how that doesn't qualify as good or impressive or whatever.
Just, if you look at all the players that score a point a game in college, there are tons of them. Cole didn't show any real improvement throughout his college career at least offensively, and he never really took his game to the next level. For a guy that is now a legit second line player, it's low production in college. Look at what even guys like Trent Klatt did in college, his final season scoring 30 goals and 66 points in 41 games. Signifincantly better than Cole. Both only played three years.

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12-11-2003, 11:40 AM
  #11
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42 points in 36 games is pretty good for the NCAA.

Koltsov played in the RSL, so of course his stats would be deflated. Kovalchuk didn't even break 20 goals his final season there, as I recall.

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12-11-2003, 11:44 AM
  #12
Gwyddbwyll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Konstantin Koltsov scored 2 goals in his final season in Russia.
Just to clarify.. Im referring to prospects in the CHL and NCAA only.

Koltsov and Alfie were kids playing against men in a much stronger defensive league. Its standard for prospects in Euro leagues to be comparatively very low-scoring especially since they usually get little ice-time. I think Alfie actually broke some scoring records for his age.

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12-11-2003, 11:46 AM
  #13
Hossa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Dave Scatchard is perfect thanks. Are there any others? Thomas is from another era!

Cole, Dupuis and King are interesting but they are more prospects that panned out better than expected and they did manage some PPG + seasons.

Rycroft also fits.. just. Surely there are more?

I do have an ulterior motive as well as a genuine interest in the topic. Ben Eager is no scoring demon even though he is showing a lot of progress and if any prospect has a hard time even reaching PPG then its hard to consider them a good prospect. Eager is often compared to Brad May who had a far far superior record in juniors and is only a useful NHL grinder.
Eager is a fighter who can skate. His hands aren't really NHL calibre, and his hockey sense is very poor and that is why he is producing so little. Having seen Eager play for quite a long time, i don't see him ever being a significant producer at the NHL level. I saw him at rookie camp games, and he lacks serious hockey sense. He'll make it because he is big, fast and can fight, but he won't bring much more than that.

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Old
12-11-2003, 11:53 AM
  #14
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Ryan Malone.

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Old
12-11-2003, 12:00 PM
  #15
Jacob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
42 points in 36 games is pretty good for the NCAA.

Koltsov played in the RSL, so of course his stats would be deflated. Kovalchuk didn't even break 20 goals his final season there, as I recall.
Kovalchuk didn't even break the RSL, I don't think.

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Old
12-11-2003, 12:41 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
Kovalchuk didn't even break the RSL, I don't think.
Correct:

2000-01 Krylja Sovetov Rus2 39 25 18 43
1999-00 Krylja Sovetov Rus2 49 12 5 17
1999-00 Krylja Sovetov Rus3 2 2 1 3

Of course he only turned 18 in april during his last season, so he was extremely young. Koltsov turned 21 during his last season.

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Old
12-11-2003, 01:27 PM
  #17
Gwyddbwyll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm
Ryan Malone.
Sorry not quite.. he had 49 in 41 then 36 in 27 games in his last two years..

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Old
12-11-2003, 01:35 PM
  #18
Gwyddbwyll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hossa
Eager is a fighter who can skate..
Well Gretzky is a fan of having a protector on the team so it makes sense they would go after Eager with a 1st round pick after previously overspending to get Hordichuk.

Brashear and Laraque also had unimpressive junior numbers (although Georges did hit PPG) but Eager isnt going to be a top fighter is he?

Seems there are some goons with low junior numbers (Scott Parker, Hordichuk) but Scatchard is the only one that impresses me so far and he may be one of a kind atm.

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Old
12-11-2003, 01:40 PM
  #19
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How about average junior into the nhl... travis moen.

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12-11-2003, 01:54 PM
  #20
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Shawn Bates was under a point a game in college for 3 of his 4 years including his last one. Would this put him in your category?

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Old
12-11-2003, 01:55 PM
  #21
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Sebastien Caron never wa all that special throughout juniors and the minors.

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12-11-2003, 05:34 PM
  #22
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From what Ive heard from people, Brendan Shanahan (although his stats arent poor) was never really that impressive of a junior player. At least to the extent of being a 500 goal scorer and one of the most prolific power forwards of all time.

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Old
12-11-2003, 06:04 PM
  #23
jmelm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevex
Sorry not quite.. he had 49 in 41 then 36 in 27 games in his last two years..
True, but no one EVER talked about him before he came to the NHL.

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Old
12-11-2003, 06:20 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmelm
True, but no one EVER talked about him before he came to the NHL.
Even as a Pens fan I never saw him as more than a mediocre AHLer...

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Old
12-11-2003, 06:29 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock
From what Ive heard from people, Brendan Shanahan (although his stats arent poor) was never really that impressive of a junior player. At least to the extent of being a 500 goal scorer and one of the most prolific power forwards of all time.
If he was really all that unimpressive in junior would he have been a 2nd overall pick. I don't think so, the thing about Shanahan in junior was that he was great but his team stunk. Basically the only reason scouts came to London during his 2 years there was to watch him and ONLY him.

Also his junior hockey team just recently retired his number a few weeks ago.

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