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Old
03-02-2007, 11:46 AM
  #176
clmetsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Wins

1 DOMINIK HASEK DET 46 1033 93 2.04 33 8 4 940 .910 6 0 1 16 2,728:55
2 MARTIN BRODEUR NJD 61 1724 127 2.06 39 17 5 1597 .926 12 0 0 12 3,690:45
3 NIKLAS BACKSTROM MIN 27 696 53 2.20 13 7 4 643 .924 2 0 1 2 1,446:40
4 MARTY TURCO DAL 53 1227 111 2.27 29 17 3 1116 .910 4 0 4 16 2,931:36
5 J GIGUERE ANA 46 1227 100 2.28 29 8 7 1127 .919 4 0 1 0 2,636:26
6 CHRIS MASON NSH 35 1097 79 2.33 22 10 2 1018 .928 5 0 1 4 2,037:38
7 ROBERTO LUONGO VAN 60 1737 138 2.35 36 19 4 1599 .921 3 0 2 4 3,516:33
8 MIIKKA KIPRUSOFF CGY 58 1692 137 2.38 31 18 8 1555 .919 6 0 0 2 3,451:41
9 RAY EMERY OTT 44 1291 102 2.45 26 13 2 1189 .921 5 0 1 28 2,497:02
10 VESA TOSKALA SJS 35 852 81 2.45 24 9 1 771 .905 3 0 3 0 1,982:39
11 TOMAS VOKOUN NSH 32 933 77 2.47 21 8 2 856 .917 4 0 2 4 1,874:11
12 EVGENI NABOKOV SJS 34 799 77 2.50 14 15 1 722 .904 4 0 0 0 1,851:18
13 HENRIK LUNDQVIST NYR 53 1443 131 2.54 26 20 5 1312 .909 3 0 0 0 3,094:20
14 MANNY FERNANDEZ MIN 43 1156 103 2.57 22 16 1 1053 .911 2 0 0 12 2,401:36
15 MANNY LEGACE STL 45 1177 109 2.59 23 15 5 1068 .907 5 0 0 2 2,521:31
16 RYAN MILLER BUF 47 1422 123 2.66 30 12 4 1299 .914 1 0 2 2 2,776:14
17 RICK DIPIETRO NYI 53 1628 139 2.67 28 18 6 1489 .915 5 0 1 22 3,123:41
18 DWAYNE ROLOSON EDM 57 1622 148 2.69 25 26 5 1474 .909 4 0 1 12 3,295:55
19 ED BELFOUR FLA 44 1158 112 2.72 19 13 8 1046 .903 1 0 2 4 2,470:43
20 JOHAN HOLMQVIST TBL 38 916 95 2.72 23 12 2 821 .896 1 0 3 4 2,092:43
21 CRISTOBAL HUET MTL 40 1237 101 2.74 19 15 3 1136 .918 2 0 1 0 2,209:42
22 PETER BUDAJ COL 42 1142 109 2.81 20 15 4 1033 .905 2 0 1 0 2,330:09
23 MATHIEU GARON LAK 23 620 60 2.81 8 8 5 560 .903 2 0 0 2 1,279:40
24 NIKOLAI KHABIBULIN CHI 47 1301 129 2.83 20 20 5 1172 .901 0 0 0 8 2,733:08
25 MARTIN GERBER OTT 25 675 65 2.88 12 9 2 610 .904 1 0 0 0 1,354:02
26 KARI LEHTONEN ATL 54 1620 150 2.89 26 19 8 1470 .907 4 0 1 6 3,110:51
27 MARC-ANDRE FLEURY PIT 52 1531 147 2.89 30 14 7 1384 .904 4 0 3 2 3,056:10
28 CAM WARD CAR 50 1398 141 2.90 25 17 6 1257 .899 1 0 1 4 2,922:05
29 FREDRIK NORRENA CBJ 39 1007 100 2.97 16 15 3 907 .901 3 0 0 6 2,021:32
30 PASCAL LECLAIRE CBJ 24 629 65 2.97 6 15 2 564 .897 1 0 0 2 1,315:07

[First/Prev


Enough Said
Judging someone solely on wins when they play a TEAM sport is beyond ridiculous.

It's the same logic as judging a pitcher in baseball only on his record, when in reality he can have the best stats in the world and still be under .500. Wins are how you measure a team, not an individual.

Put Henrik on a team where Marek Malik and Karel Rachunek aren't regular starters on defense and see how he does.

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Old
03-02-2007, 11:48 AM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp View Post

It doesn't matter how far out you play, pinball goals happen out of bad luck regardless. Fleury plays more out of the net than Lundqvist and that didn't stop his defenseman from deflecting it in his own goal, did it?
Ok then I guess Henke just has brutal luck. Because I've never seen it happen to any goalie as much as it's happened to Henke.

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Old
03-02-2007, 11:51 AM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseydevil View Post
Listen, I despise the Rangers..but you know what, I respect good players.. HL is a good player. Just because the team isn't winning doesn't mean he's not doing his job well..Look no further than Mike Richter..he was playing extremely well late in his career and the Rangers weren't winning..Does that mean richter wasn't a good goalie? Absolutelu not. Does it make mark messier a bad player because he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs for a number of years with the Rangers? Abolutely not. No, hockey is a team sport and HL has been playing well..All goalies give up softies once in a while..it's up to their team to bail them out once in a while..but for most of the season it's been HL bailing out the rangers
It's pretty comical when a Devils fan who despise the Rangers feels players on the despised team are being so mistreated by their own fans that he feels obligued to come in and defend them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Ok then I guess Henke just has brutal luck. Because I've never seen it happen to any goalie as much as it's happened to Henke.
Me neither. It's absurd how many pinball goals he has had on him this season and in his rookie season. There's not much you can do when pucks are redirected by your own defensemen and etc.


Last edited by Chimp: 03-02-2007 at 11:57 AM.
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Old
03-02-2007, 11:55 AM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
Please let's stop with the comparisons to Brodeur. Why don't you start complaining that Fedor Tyutin hasn't played as well as Bobby Orr?

Oh wait, I know. It's because he's an extremely promising and still very young player who has been one of the few bright spots for us this year, and it's completely unfair to compare him to arguably the greatest of all time.
ok how bout this...let's compare Lundy's first two seasons to Brodeur's (and Brodeur was on a much better defensive team)

Brodeur
1993-1994 Devils 47 2,625 27 11 8 - 105 1,238 3 2.40 .915
1994-1995 Devils 40 2,184 19 11 6 - 89 908 3 2.44 .902

Lundqvist
2005-2006 Rangers 53 3,111 30 12 - 9 116 1,485 2 2.24 .922
2006-2007 Rangers 53 3,094 26 20 - 5 131 1,443 3 2.54 .909

I don't think Lundqvist will be as lucky to have the success that Brodeur has had primarily because this organization doesn't have the where-with-all that the Devils org has.

Regardless, if you ask me, he has put better numbers in his first two seasons than Brodeur did in his.


(even if you compare Brodeur at the same age as Lundy...
1995-1996 Devils 77 4,433 34 30 12 - 173 1,954 6 2.34 .911
1996-1997 Devils 67 3,838 37 14 13 - 120 1,633 10 1.88 .927
very comparable...especially considering the difference in TEAM consistency)

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Old
03-02-2007, 11:55 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
Judging someone solely on wins when they play a TEAM sport is beyond ridiculous.

It's the same logic as judging a pitcher in baseball only on his record, when in reality he can have the best stats in the world and still be under .500. Wins are how you measure a team, not an individual.

Put Henrik on a team where Marek Malik and Karel Rachunek aren't regular starters on defense and see how he does.
Yeah, it's pretty brutal that from all the goalie stats he could pick to judge Lundqvist, he picks the one that is highly considered the least important one when measuring the actual performance by a goaltender. Save percentage > GAA > Wins/losses (for various reasons) and still those only tell a partion of the what is really happening out there. No stat tell us how many quality scoring chances each goalie faces each game and how many of those shots that are practically harmless.


Last edited by Chimp: 03-02-2007 at 12:02 PM.
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Old
03-02-2007, 11:56 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Wins and loses

1 DOMINIK HASEK DET 46 1033 93 2.04 33 8 4 940 .910 6 0 1 16 2,728:55
2 MARTIN BRODEUR NJD 61 1724 127 2.06 39 17 5 1597 .926 12 0 0 12 3,690:45
3 NIKLAS BACKSTROM MIN 27 696 53 2.20 13 7 4 643 .924 2 0 1 2 1,446:40
4 MARTY TURCO DAL 53 1227 111 2.27 29 17 3 1116 .910 4 0 4 16 2,931:36
5 J GIGUERE ANA 46 1227 100 2.28 29 8 7 1127 .919 4 0 1 0 2,636:26
6 CHRIS MASON NSH 35 1097 79 2.33 22 10 2 1018 .928 5 0 1 4 2,037:38
7 ROBERTO LUONGO VAN 60 1737 138 2.35 36 19 4 1599 .921 3 0 2 4 3,516:33
8 MIIKKA KIPRUSOFF CGY 58 1692 137 2.38 31 18 8 1555 .919 6 0 0 2 3,451:41
9 RAY EMERY OTT 44 1291 102 2.45 26 13 2 1189 .921 5 0 1 28 2,497:02
10 VESA TOSKALA SJS 35 852 81 2.45 24 9 1 771 .905 3 0 3 0 1,982:39
11 TOMAS VOKOUN NSH 32 933 77 2.47 21 8 2 856 .917 4 0 2 4 1,874:11
12 EVGENI NABOKOV SJS 34 799 77 2.50 14 15 1 722 .904 4 0 0 0 1,851:18
13 HENRIK LUNDQVIST NYR 53 1443 131 2.54 26 20 5 1312 .909 3 0 0 0 3,094:20
14 MANNY FERNANDEZ MIN 43 1156 103 2.57 22 16 1 1053 .911 2 0 0 12 2,401:36
15 MANNY LEGACE STL 45 1177 109 2.59 23 15 5 1068 .907 5 0 0 2 2,521:31
16 RYAN MILLER BUF 47 1422 123 2.66 30 12 4 1299 .914 1 0 2 2 2,776:14
17 RICK DIPIETRO NYI 53 1628 139 2.67 28 18 6 1489 .915 5 0 1 22 3,123:41
18 DWAYNE ROLOSON EDM 57 1622 148 2.69 25 26 5 1474 .909 4 0 1 12 3,295:55
19 ED BELFOUR FLA 44 1158 112 2.72 19 13 8 1046 .903 1 0 2 4 2,470:43
20 JOHAN HOLMQVIST TBL 38 916 95 2.72 23 12 2 821 .896 1 0 3 4 2,092:43
21 CRISTOBAL HUET MTL 40 1237 101 2.74 19 15 3 1136 .918 2 0 1 0 2,209:42
22 PETER BUDAJ COL 42 1142 109 2.81 20 15 4 1033 .905 2 0 1 0 2,330:09
23 MATHIEU GARON LAK 23 620 60 2.81 8 8 5 560 .903 2 0 0 2 1,279:40
24 NIKOLAI KHABIBULIN CHI 47 1301 129 2.83 20 20 5 1172 .901 0 0 0 8 2,733:08
25 MARTIN GERBER OTT 25 675 65 2.88 12 9 2 610 .904 1 0 0 0 1,354:02
26 KARI LEHTONEN ATL 54 1620 150 2.89 26 19 8 1470 .907 4 0 1 6 3,110:51
27 MARC-ANDRE FLEURY PIT 52 1531 147 2.89 30 14 7 1384 .904 4 0 3 2 3,056:10
28 CAM WARD CAR 50 1398 141 2.90 25 17 6 1257 .899 1 0 1 4 2,922:05
29 FREDRIK NORRENA CBJ 39 1007 100 2.97 16 15 3 907 .901 3 0 0 6 2,021:32
30 PASCAL LECLAIRE CBJ 24 629 65 2.97 6 15 2 564 .897 1 0 0 2 1,315:07

[First/Prev


Enough Said
There you have it folks. Chris Mason and Nikolas Backstrom are better goaltenders than Lundqvist, Luongo, Kipper, Emery, DP, MAF, Nabokov...

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Old
03-02-2007, 11:58 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by AGraveOne View Post
ok how bout this...let's compare Lundy's first two seasons to Brodeur's (and Brodeur was on a much better defensive team)

Brodeur
1993-1994 Devils 47 2,625 27 11 8 - 105 1,238 3 2.40 .915
1994-1995 Devils 40 2,184 19 11 6 - 89 908 3 2.44 .902

Lundqvist
2005-2006 Rangers 53 3,111 30 12 - 9 116 1,485 2 2.24 .922
2006-2007 Rangers 53 3,094 26 20 - 5 131 1,443 3 2.54 .909

I don't think Lundqvist will be as lucky to have the success that Brodeur has had primarily because this organization doesn't have the where-with-all that the Devils org has.

Regardless, if you ask me, he has put better numbers in his first two seasons than Brodeur did in his.


(even if you compare Brodeur at the same age as Lundy...
1995-1996 Devils 77 4,433 34 30 12 - 173 1,954 6 2.34 .911
1996-1997 Devils 67 3,838 37 14 13 - 120 1,633 10 1.88 .927
very comparable...especially considering the difference in TEAM consistency)

But how many Cups has Henke won???

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03-02-2007, 12:03 PM
  #183
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Well said JerseyDevil. Hank has been great, especially the 2nd half of this season. I would say he has been possibly the best goalie in the league. Put him on a team who hasn't had defensive brekdowns left and right and his numbers would be Brodeur like. One thing that has changed though, is what the heck happened to him in the SO? He went from being the best in the NHL to giving up goals in every SO were in ever since the NJ game where he let in his first 2 of the year on like the 30 something shot he had faced. And it hasn't been like hes just been beaten by some nice shots, it seems like every shot he has struggled with. Like in NJ last week the 1st one from Gionta I believe, was a nice shot, then he barely stopped Elias on one that almost slipped between his pads and then he let the last one bounce off the glove and in. Every shot glove side has been an ugly save that bounces up in the air and over or in the net. Seems like Jags isn't the only one not comfortable in SO anymore.

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Old
03-02-2007, 12:05 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
But how many Cups has Henke won???
the exact same amount that Brodeur has won with the Rangers - zero.

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Old
03-02-2007, 12:12 PM
  #185
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Comparing Lundqvist to Brodeaur.

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03-02-2007, 12:16 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Kluivert4Ever View Post
Comparing Lundqvist to Brodeaur.
Yeah, we can all agree it's stupid to compare Lundqvist's performance to Brodeur's and pretty much be expected to be just as good.

Brodeur just happens to be one of the absolute greatest of all time and is probably in his peak of his career, although his peak will probably be a very long one. Lundqvist is still a pup yet in terms of goalie age. Most goaltenders become truly successful around the age of 30 and up.

I find it quite remarkable that there are so many young and skillful goaltenders in the league at the same time.

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03-02-2007, 12:20 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Yeah, we can all agree it's stupid to compare Lundqvist's performance to Brodeur's and pretty much be expected to be just as good.

Brodeur just happens to be one of the absolute greatest of all time and is probably in his peak of his career, although his peak will probably be a very long one. Lundqvist is still a pup yet in terms of goalie age. Most goaltenders become truly successful around the age of 30 and up.

I find it quite remarkable that there are so many young and skillful goaltenders in the league at the same time.


Dont tell me you honestly believe that Lundqvist even in his prime will be in the same league as Marty, Lundqvist is no slob but I doubt he will ever be an elite goaltender.

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03-02-2007, 12:27 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Kluivert4Ever View Post
Dont tell me you honestly believe that Lundqvist even in his prime will be in the same league as Marty, Lundqvist is no slob but I doubt he will ever be an elite goaltender.
Lundqvist was in Martys league stat wise last season....as a rookie.

He may not be in Martys league now or next season, but hes showed us he has the potential. Lets come back to this question in 3-4 years and see where Lundqvist is

BTW, Martys stats his first 2 seasons:

.915 save %, 2.40 GAA
.902 save %, 2.45 GAA

Lundqvist:
.922 save %, 2.24 GAA
.909 save %, 2.54 GAA

Also something funny to note, Brodeur is having his best season of his career at the age of 34. For the record i'm not predicting he future and saying he is going to be an elite goalie like Marty, but to say there's not chance for him to be an elite goalie is way too premature the way he has played over the past 4-5 years as a 19-24 year old.


Last edited by FLYLine24: 03-02-2007 at 12:34 PM.
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Old
03-02-2007, 12:37 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Yeah, we can all agree it's stupid to compare Lundqvist's performance to Brodeur's and pretty much be expected to be just as good.

Brodeur just happens to be one of the absolute greatest of all time and is probably in his peak of his career, although his peak will probably be a very long one. Lundqvist is still a pup yet in terms of goalie age. Most goaltenders become truly successful around the age of 30 and up.

I find it quite remarkable that there are so many young and skillful goaltenders in the league at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kluivert4Ever View Post
Dont tell me you honestly believe that Lundqvist even in his prime will be in the same league as Marty, Lundqvist is no slob but I doubt he will ever be an elite goaltender.
more fuel to the fire that Brodeur is the absolute most overrated goalie ever. Roy was overrated and Roy was better than Brodeur.

Who thinks Brodeur would have 3 Cups if he played on Florida!? or Phoenix? We might be thinking of Brodeur as being equivalent to Khabibulin then!?

i remember very well being one of the few supporters of Brodeur back in 94 - well before anyone else was giving him credit. Lundy is very much in line with how Brodeur looked back then. Solid, but giving up the occassional killer goal. A goalie HAS TO HAVE a TEAM that can cover for his errors/gaffs/soft goals. And Brodeur has had that and Lundy will probably not have that in most years while in the Ranger org.

Regardless, i had no desire to start a comparison - i was merely saying that EVEN Brodeur loses games that he should win...so give Lundqvist some slack, especially since he plays on a much lesser team in a considerably weaker organization.

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03-02-2007, 12:47 PM
  #190
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Save % since the lockout-
.921 Kiprusoff
.918 Hasek
.918 Brodeur
.918 Vokoun
.917 Luongo
.916 Lundqvist
.914 Giguere
.914 Miller
.907 Dipietro
.907 Lehtonen
.903 Turco
.901 MAF

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03-02-2007, 12:52 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by AGraveOne View Post
more fuel to the fire that Brodeur is the absolute most overrated goalie ever. Roy was overrated and Roy was better than Brodeur.

Who thinks Brodeur would have 3 Cups if he played on Florida!? or Phoenix? We might be thinking of Brodeur as being equivalent to Khabibulin then!?

i remember very well being one of the few supporters of Brodeur back in 94 - well before anyone else was giving him credit. Lundy is very much in line with how Brodeur looked back then. Solid, but giving up the occassional killer goal. A goalie HAS TO HAVE a TEAM that can cover for his errors/gaffs/soft goals. And Brodeur has had that and Lundy will probably not have that in most years while in the Ranger org.

Regardless, i had no desire to start a comparison - i was merely saying that EVEN Brodeur loses games that he should win...so give Lundqvist some slack, especially since he plays on a much lesser team in a considerably weaker organization.
I've been backing HL the entire time here so I hope this doesn't look like trolling...BUT, all of the all time great goalies have played on "Great teams" during their careers..Dryden, Sawchuk, Roy, Brodeur, Hainsworth, etc...Beyond that statement, it the chicken or the egg argument..Were they great because of the team or was the team great because of them?

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03-02-2007, 12:57 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Kluivert4Ever View Post
He let up a softie in both the semi-final and the final in the that tournament.

He made a big save against Jokinen but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
And yet he won the big game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
LOL you are so right about that. But I don't hate Hank just pissed the Euro fans on here never see he isn't God or Marty Good just yet
Because we realize he isn't god or Marty we don't get upset. We aren't holding him up to those standards yet. and...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogueMahone View Post
Boy, then there must be a whole new crew of perfect shooters all of a sudden, because goals are flying over his shoulders like crazy. I'm not arguing about the effectiveness of Lundqvist's style over all. But don't try to tell me that somehow there would be a cost to his game by fixing this problem. He would still be the Lundqvist miracle goalie we know, just better. By working on this, he isn't giving up anything else, so why would anyone want to portray it that way?

This has nothing to do with close-in roofers on the backhand, these are shots from way out. If you want to call yourself a money goalie in the NHL, no way you can keep letting those in.
Yes, he needs to work on that. But to blame the loss on him for these types of goals is so shortsighted. The point I'm trying to make is that if he stayed on his feet for some of these "wretched" goals, he would be getting beat down low. I still point to the Nash goal: A sniper of his level going in all alone is going to pick his spot. If Lundqvist takes away the top corner Nash will 5-hole him. Lundqvist played the percentages and made the proper call. We just have to give Nash credit for hitting the mark.

Trust me, if he was getting beat 5-hole instead of top shelf these threads would be twice as long and twice as brutal.

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03-02-2007, 01:04 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Kluivert4Ever View Post
Dont tell me you honestly believe that Lundqvist even in his prime will be in the same league as Marty, Lundqvist is no slob but I doubt he will ever be an elite goaltender.
Look, here's the deal. Let's put all cards on the table.

There's a reason why I think Lundqvist is a really interesting player. He's one of the very few goaltenders who has ever taken the step from another league directly into NHL level. He never took the step through AHL first, which probably each and every goaltender has done except a very, very few (among European goaltenders, it's almost unique). Granted, Rangers goalie situation was weak when Lundqvist arrived, but he quickly adapted to the smaller rink (which is harder for a goalie than a normal player).

His rookie season with a Vezina nomination and breaking several Rangers goalie records also confirmed Lundqvist truly deserved the spot to be a no.1 goaltender in a NHL franchise. He probably would have been rookie of the year as well in a season with a normal spread of skillful rookies. And he had to fight for it to remove Weekes from the no.1 spot for months, which was why many fans felt anger upon Weekes for playing instead of the clearly more skilled rookie backup, when they should have been angry on the coach instead. Renney wanted to nurse Lundqvist and give him time to adapt, but clearly Henke was already ready (nursing young players too long seems to be an ongoing theme in this organisation, although I can understand the philosophy, which is a more secure one).

I don't know exactly what you don't see in Lundqvist what many others do see. You regard him as a mediocre goaltender at best it seems, while I for example have great hopes for him. Look, he didn't play for my favourite team back in Sweden, I didn't even like him, but his play on the ice finally made me like him.

He has a good head, great mentality, good positioning skills and great lateral movement, which probably is his strongest trait. He has less weaknesses than many other goaltenders I've seen in this league.

Can you please explain to me what makes you so sure Lundqvist will never be an elite goaltender? Heck, he has had an excellent rookie season behind a mediocre defense and at least a very good second season behind an sometimes absolutely dreadful defense, his so called "sophomore season." He dominated everybody back in Sweden, even when the league was packed with NHL players and stars.

I don't claim Lundqvist will be an elite goaltender for sure, I'm just sure he has the potential to be one.

Each and every player on this team has the right to have a bad game once and then. But when we're talking about Lundqvist, he doesn't even seem to be granted to even have one bad goal. And no, ask any person with knowledge about goaltending what they think about the 2 shorthanded goals against Blue Jackets and if you can blame Lundqvist for not saving them. They weren't soft goals and that's a fact. This board has gone absolutely bananas after one pesky bad goal, when the focus at this time should be about the catastrophic 4 SH goals against in 2 games. That's a totally unacceptable team collapse in all aspects. Certain individuals are more guilty than others and it should certainly be corrected. But that's all Lundqvist's fault, right?


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03-02-2007, 01:06 PM
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Thanks for proving my point.
You mean your point that no one claimed he sucks? No problem.

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03-02-2007, 01:17 PM
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more fuel to the fire that Brodeur is the absolute most overrated goalie ever. Roy was overrated and Roy was better than Brodeur.

Who thinks Brodeur would have 3 Cups if he played on Florida!? or Phoenix? We might be thinking of Brodeur as being equivalent to Khabibulin then!?

i remember very well being one of the few supporters of Brodeur back in 94 - well before anyone else was giving him credit. Lundy is very much in line with how Brodeur looked back then. Solid, but giving up the occassional killer goal. A goalie HAS TO HAVE a TEAM that can cover for his errors/gaffs/soft goals. And Brodeur has had that and Lundy will probably not have that in most years while in the Ranger org.

Regardless, i had no desire to start a comparison - i was merely saying that EVEN Brodeur loses games that he should win...so give Lundqvist some slack, especially since he plays on a much lesser team in a considerably weaker organization.
Which is why I said "one of the best" and not the best. I personally hold Roy and Hasek as better goaltenders than Brodeur in the modern era, but it's quite hard not to give Brodeur credit for his effectiveness. True, Brodeur IS the system in NJ's system and it's working. They've always been in the top in the league. Brodeur has always had the luxury of having a defense that know what they're doing though, which many others haven't had. This organisation today is an example of that.


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03-02-2007, 01:20 PM
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wins and losses are not as indicative of a goalie as GAA.. low GAA combined with lower team scoring leads to losses.. its that the team cant back him up..

for those who have actually seen him play its obvious that he is supremely skilled, very solid since Jan and only in his 2nd year in the NHL. it seems like with the internet, people are less patient, more apt to complain/moan, and pretend like they are really fans of the teams whose board they post on..

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03-02-2007, 01:24 PM
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Which is why I said "one of the best" and not the best. I personally hold Roy and Hasek as better goaltenders than Brodeur in the modern era, but it's quite hard not to give Brodeur credit for his effectiveness. True, Brodeur IS the system in NJ's system and it's working. They've always been in the top in the league.

Even the most die-hard Devils fan would have to admit that Brodeur is at least partially a product of the system in which he plays, which happens to be the most defensive-minded one in history.

However, I have to admit that he would likely be at least an All-Star caliber goalie no matter where he played. He may be a whiner, and you may think that he rivals Greg Lougainis in his diving skills (both true, IMO), but the guy also makes you want to rip your hair out with the amount of times that he has stolen games away from the Rangers, as well as the rest of the league.

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03-02-2007, 01:28 PM
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Judging someone solely on wins when they play a TEAM sport is beyond ridiculous.
Absolutely agreed - otherwise Luongo went from the worst starter in history to one of the best in one year. And how the heck could the worst goaltender get such a nice contract? This argument is getting beyond silly - Z

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03-02-2007, 01:36 PM
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I've been backing HL the entire time here so I hope this doesn't look like trolling...BUT, all of the all time great goalies have played on "Great teams" during their careers..Dryden, Sawchuk, Roy, Brodeur, Hainsworth, etc...Beyond that statement, it the chicken or the egg argument..Were they great because of the team or was the team great because of them?
and that is where i disagree with most...in every case, the goalie is impacted by the team way more than the team is impacted by the goalie.

a good team with a great goalie will not win as much as a great team with an average goalie. (Cheveldae, Turek, Cechmanek, even Cloutier in Vancouver...and then cup winners Osgood in Detroit, Barasso in Pittsburgh...
great goalies on average teams - Hasek in Buffalo, Luongo in Florida, Roy with Montreal in 95, i think, Cujo in Edmonton and St Louis...and even the hot goalies in the playoffs Giguere, Kolzig, Vanbiesbrouck, John Casey in Minnesota...you can't have a better playoff performance than some of these and sorry no cup...not a lot of success.)

Hasek is a fantastic example of this...for he is surely a great goalie and at the least deserves mention with those names...yet he could not win the Cup or even put the sabres into the top echelon of teams during the regular season. Only one season did he have a really tough team in front of him - but only because they were solid and deep...they still lacked a go to guy...and that cost him.

And further Chris Osgood is a grand example...he was at best a team's last resort to fill the starting role...to even be considered a starter AND HIS NAME is on the Cup...

So a great team with an average goalie vs an average team with a GREAT goalie...the first will win Cups with much greater frequency than the latter...actually, i don't know of any average team winning the cup in the years i have watched.

this isn't the place for this, and i don't care to "hijack" another thread.....if someone wants my opinion on this goalie junk - start a thread for it...i have no problem bringing it full force or at least full time. (as i might have done on occassion)


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03-02-2007, 01:36 PM
  #200
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Even the most die-hard Devils fan would have to admit that Brodeur is at least partially a product of the system in which he plays, which happens to be the most defensive-minded one in history.

However, I have to admit that he would likely be at least an All-Star caliber goalie no matter where he played. He may be a whiner, and you may think that he rivals Greg Lougainis in his diving skills (both true, IMO), but the guy also makes you want to rip your hair out with the amount of times that he has stolen games away from the Rangers, as well as the rest of the league.
Yeah, that about summarizes it. Devils have always made a team that puts Brodeur in the center of the gameplan. They're the equivalent of 5-4-1 in soccer and if you're not a Devils fan and hardcore hockey fan in general, it can be painful to watch the Devils defend an odd goal lead after the 1st period or 2nd period, in terms of excitement.

Brodeur has always been helped by the pure defensive strategy in front of him (it's hard to argue about it since he hasn't exactly switched teams alot), but you can't deny he's still an All-star goaltender. All-star as in "elite", not All-star as in "let's vote him in because he's popular" as All-star means today. You can't argue with the fact that he will be a first ballot Hall of Famer for sure either.

I do really dislike his tendency to dive though, it's disgraceful and unsportsmanlike.

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