That's fair
But again, what has changed? I doubt Datyuk's production has lead to his agent lowering the demands, it's another case of Holland negotiating from a position of weakness and that's why they're getting closer.
Let me ask you a question, Boom: If you were in Holland's position, what would you do, if what's he's done is so unsettling?
No, I'm not kidding. I provided a list of a ton of guys Holland let walk. You guys can make a bunch of excuses for why the players left... but that's not a big difference from what usually happens with regards to Holland: he gets blame for the bad but no credit for the good. .
Wrong. Deal with one issue, don't group my opinion with every person who bashed Holland for anything. I loved the Hasek signing as soon as it happened and the #'s were released. Seriously he had an unbelievable year in Ottawa last year, but they thought he quit on them, not that his play was poor.
In general I'm a huge fan of how Holland consistantly brings in hall of famer calibre 'old guys' for very cheap salaries to fill out the roster, I wonder how other GM's don't take notes on this.
So this is politics? Either agree with everything that one party says or you're changing sides that quickly?
There is some gray area, SMOE. It's OK to venture to the other side every once in a while.
Uh, *** are you talking about Heater?
One: You told Boomer to stop with the "holland BS"
Two: I ask you if you'd quit being a "holland apologist." I'm not even saying you are, I'm saying that if what Boomer says is Holland BS, than what you say can be seen as being an apologist. If people are going to rip people as "Holland bashers" well, then guess what, their gonna be labeled as well.
I basically agree with you on your point. I'm on the record with the Pavel stuff. He's in a no-win spot.
At this point, unless he gets a real sweet deal, I'd let it go under after the playoffs.
If you twist my arm, I'll say that Holland's ridiculous contract with Kronwall makes his negotiating position tougher with Datsyuk, but forget. That's for another day.
You need to run for office or something so you can surround yourself with yes-men and insulate yourself wholly from having to deal with opposing positions.
Let me ask you a question, Boom: If you were in Holland's position, what would you do, if what's he's done is so unsettling?
Listen, remember that big thread where the stale mate was announced?
Datsyuk wanted $7M range and Holland/Wings were offering 5 years 25 Mil.
Just because Datsyuk has come alive, I don't think you come running back to the table and are all of a sudden close. You don't establish you're value in a mounth and a half.
I still say keep that offer on the table, but wait until after the season to consider making an adjustment.
One: You told Boomer to stop with the "holland BS"
Two: I ask you if you'd quit being a "holland apologist." I'm not even saying you are, I'm saying that if what Boomer says is Holland BS, than what you say can be seen as being an apologist. If people are going to rip people as "Holland bashers" well, then guess what, their gonna be labeled as well.
I basically agree with you on your point. I'm on the record with the Pavel stuff. He's in a no-win spot.
At this point, unless he gets a real sweet deal, I'd let it go under after the playoffs.
If you twist my arm, I'll say that Holland's ridiculous contract with Kronwall makes his negotiating position tougher with Datsyuk, but forget. That's for another day.
SMOE, look, if we don't continue to turn and twist what people say on these boards and over at RWC we'll have nothing to overreact about and we'll have less time filled in our day.
The labeling is just stupid though, I didn't label anyone anything. I just don't agree with Boom's tone on these last 2 issues.
SMOE, look, if we don't continue to turn and twist what people say on these boards and over at RWC we'll have nothing to overreact about and we'll have less time filled in our day.
The labeling is just stupid though, I didn't label anyone anything. I just don't agree with Boom's tone on these last 2 issues.
Typical BS, please?
Of course players will negatiate when they aren't playing well. Who wants to go into free agency with 18 goals 40 assists? Which is what Datsyuk was on pace for for a while. Those numbers aren't going to get you 5 Mill a season, which is what was being offered. Holland was bailing him out, giving him the benefit of the doubt and offering him money based on his abilities and performance over the past 2 years.
Fedorov - offered more by Holland than Ducks
Shanahan - same
McCarty - Had to be bought out b/c Holland overpayed to keep him
Hatcher and Whitney - same boat, but htey weren't originally re-signees
Thomas - was 150 year olds and finished his career with the Wings???
Duchense - same
Devereaux, Olausson, Kutznetsov, Rivers, Mowers, Bykov - spare parts
Avery - Traded
Hull - no room under cap
Joseph - both wanted to seperate so bad it hurt.
seriously who's point are you proving?
How about Ilitch??? It was Ilitch who offered that money. Holland does not make decisions on his own, and probably some decisions he does not make at all as Ilitch is the boss and he has the last word on all deals.
Listen, remember that big thread where the stale mate was announced?
Datsyuk wanted $7M range and Holland/Wings were offering 5 years 25 Mil.
Just because Datsyuk has come alive, I don't think you come running back to the table and are all of a sudden close. You don't establish you're value in a mounth and a half.
I still say keep that offer on the table, but wait until after the season to consider making an adjustment.
So then you're saying Holland should make one offer and then sit on it until after the playoffs?
That's really not 'negotiating', you know. Besides, what have you read which leads you to think what you've just described isn't, in fact, the case?
So then you're saying Holland should make one offer and then sit on it until after the playoffs?
That's really not 'negotiating', you know. Besides, what have you read which leads you to think what you've just described isn't, in fact, the case?
They were negotiating, but declared they were so far apart it was pointless, now Datsyuk has a good mounth and a half and thing are getting close and the sides are no longer acrimonious? Please, Holland has come running back to the tables when it best suits Datsyuk, why would Greenstein change his mind now?
It's counter productive/frusterating to continuously negotiate when the sides aren't even close. Something has given, if Duff is indeed correct.
It's counter productive/frusterating to continuously negotiate when the sides aren't even close.
Why would you say that? The most important part of a successful negotiation strategy is being able to keep the lines of communication fluid even if the terms being discussed aren't terribly close.
Besides, maybe it's a year issue and not an amount issue? Perhaps Holland was wanting 4 years at 5 or so and Greenstin wanted 2 years at 6 or so, and now they're moving towards a 3 year 5.5-ish deal.
Without having any specifics at hand all it appears you are doing is taking the absence of information as evidence that Holland is a boob... which is fine, I guess... I just don't know what you think that proves/accomplishes.
Those articles, published or not, have always been speculation.
What has been said, by Holland, is that the two sides were far apart.
That's about it.
By the way, between Duff and Waddell, the Windsor Star is totally kicking the crap out of the Freep and News Wings beat writers.
Yeah, the article also said Holland had decided to put off negotiations until the end of the season. I just can't remember if that was quoted or spectulated by the writer.
It's probably wishful thinking but it would be great if Hank and Dats will cost a collective $11 or 12 million between the two of them after they both sign their next deals. Zetterberg will be due a huge raise...probably great than the one Dats will get. Seeing those two play together this past two months shows me that Holland has to keep Datsyuk and since he locked up Holmstrom for three more years and Hank has a year or two left...it has to be Kenny's #1 goal to sign Pavel before July. I think Babcock has struck oil when he put those three guys together on a line. They should never be split up and Holland just needs to work on improving the other three lines.
In all fairness, most of the people on these boards were pencilling Datsyuk and Zetterberg onto separate lines. I do not think Babcock did not know what works, he just spent his time finding out what else might work (and now we know the answer, NOTHING ).
In all fairness, most of the people on these boards were pencilling Datsyuk and Zetterberg onto separate lines. I do not think Babcock did not know what works, he just spent his time finding out what else might work (and now we know the answer, NOTHING ).
This is quite true. If something else HAD worked, we'd have two scoring lines, but as we all know.... Not replacing Shanny with a 20-30 G guy like Kenny wanted last summer may be a costly decision-- if he trades real assets at the deadline. And if he doesn't, the team limps along pretending it has a few other forwards that can score.
By the way, between Duff and Waddell, the Windsor Star is totally kicking the crap out of the Freep and News Wings beat writers.
I noticed that too. Most of the breaking news, latest stuff is coming from the Windsor paper. Maybe they're more passionate about their hockey over on the other side of the river!
This is quite true. If something else HAD worked, we'd have two scoring lines, but as we all know.... Not replacing Shanny with a 20-30 G guy like Kenny wanted last summer may be a costly decision-- if he trades real assets at the deadline. And if he doesn't, the team limps along pretending it has a few other forwards that can score.
You know, given what I have seen from Hudler, I think he should be given a real shot on a top line (I am sure I am not the first to say that ). He looks like a quick-strike player, I'd expect him to mesh pretty well with Zetterberg. Give them a guy who can work the boards and go to the net (Franzen?) and you have a decent scoring line. And then add a skating defensive player (Draper?) to Dats and Homer, and I think you'll have a decent scoring line too. I think Filppula-Lang-Samuelsson is a good 3rd line. And then Cleary-Maltby and... and... Darn, who said we need a scoring forward, we need a 4th line plugger!
I don't know if I can be a proponent of breaking up the hottest line in the NHL.
As far as throwing young guys on different lines and seeing how they do... I'd guess that's something which is either done in practices or in November. I'm certainly not a fan of trying it with 19 games left in the season.
I'd leave the top line be, but while Cleary and Samuelsson are both out try and rotate Hudler and Filppula up on the second line intermittently while Franzen skates the other wing. Maybe one of those two can develop some Holmstrom-like chemistry with Lang.
Other than that... we're pretty much stuck with what we've got.
Will the Acquisition of Bertuzzi have any influence on re-signing Datsyuk? I'm not sure, but I can see how it might allow Holland to bring down Pasha's asking price, if Datsyuk does want to stay in Detroit. If Bert is healthy and contributes during the playoffs, the Wings might want to retain him at least through next season, which leaves less money for Dats. And, if Dats has his typical playoffs, Holland could say "I'd like to keep you, but did you see what Bertuzzi did? I can't just let that walk. We really want to keep you, especially because of how well you and Hank play together, but we can't do it at the price you want."
I think Holland might even be able to extend some pressure now on the possibility that Bertuzzi will be an important player for the Wings in the playoffs.
At what point do you say this is all we can afford, and take it or leave it? You can't put yourself in a position where all you can do is re-sign your own players at any cost. Holland has not shown that he can say goodbye to players, and because of that he misses out on other players. Datsyuk has shown that he can only play with a guy like Zetterberg, he can't be a second line center, so how much do you pay to keep around a guy who can only be effective with a certain player in certain situations?
Agreed. We don't want a situation like they have in TB.
I don't know if I can be a proponent of breaking up the hottest line in the NHL.
As far as throwing young guys on different lines and seeing how they do... I'd guess that's something which is either done in practices or in November. I'm certainly not a fan of trying it with 19 games left in the season.
I'd leave the top line be, but while Cleary and Samuelsson are both out try and rotate Hudler and Filppula up on the second line intermittently while Franzen skates the other wing. Maybe one of those two can develop some Holmstrom-like chemistry with Lang.
Other than that... we're pretty much stuck with what we've got.
It's always nice to have options though. That's what we really ran out of before the new trades. Over time Babs probably got every combo together out there with the vets. Only one seemed to really work. Now if the guys do slump or if there's an injury, the team can try a few other things out. Some teams are better at shutting down Z and Dats anyway (Flames, Oilers especially).
You know, given what I have seen from Hudler, I think he should be given a real shot on a top line (I am sure I am not the first to say that ). He looks like a quick-strike player, I'd expect him to mesh pretty well with Zetterberg. Give them a guy who can work the boards and go to the net (Franzen?) and you have a decent scoring line. And then add a skating defensive player (Draper?) to Dats and Homer, and I think you'll have a decent scoring line too. I think Filppula-Lang-Samuelsson is a good 3rd line. And then Cleary-Maltby and... and... Darn, who said we need a scoring forward, we need a 4th line plugger!
Is it just me or has Hudler found a second gear? Lately he looks like a spinning dervish out there. I was amazed by the speed of some of his reversals while managing to keep the puck. One nice thing is with the current injuries, the kids are being put up with better line mates. They're still a bit green but they're getting a lot better and much more confident. The coaches do need to be careful though. The playoffs get so intense that expecting too much from the rookies who hadn't really gotten real IT yet in regular season situations can do more harm than good. (somehow I think they're aware of that though)
).
). He looks like a quick-strike player, I'd expect him to mesh pretty well with Zetterberg. Give them a guy who can work the boards and go to the net (Franzen?) and you have a decent scoring line. And then add a skating defensive player (Draper?) to Dats and Homer, and I think you'll have a decent scoring line too. I think Filppula-Lang-Samuelsson is a good 3rd line. And then Cleary-Maltby and... and... Darn, who said we need a scoring forward, we need a 4th line plugger! 
