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Old
03-01-2007, 11:43 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylph View Post
Clutch, I don't know how to quote you without making a hot mess of my post, so I am going to just start fresh in my response to you if that is okay.


1. The McCabe reference went over my head, probably because I like McCabe, but that is a different debate. As for Redden's ice time, I completely disagree. When Redden was out of the lineup, it was clearly a burden for his teammates to make up that time, and it showed, the team looked haggard. Players' talent and productivity suffered from being overworked. Redden's stamina on the ice takes the heat off many other players, so they can play their best.

2. We all seem to agree...so moving on...

3. Again, I will respectively have to disagree on your assessment of Redden, and I wouldn't be alone. I'm not the one who coined Redden the Sen's "Quarterback of the Power Play", he is widely considered to be in that role by both his peers and pundits in this game, all of who are a lot more knowledgable about this game than little old moi.

4. I wasn't refering to his defensive partner, I was refering to the entire team. Redden's teammates regularly sing his praises. His coaches love him, the media pundits love him, and let's face it, you don't get a call from the Great One to come play and represent your country if you are a mediocre defenseman. Redden has a long standing reputation for having ice water in his veins, and he doesn't wear the "A" for nothing on his jersey. He is known leader and he is known for performing under pressure. Are you willing to dismiss all of this? Are you prepared to say his reputation is undeserved and that he in fact has a negative influence on his teammates? If so, then kudos on Wade Redden for tricking so many people for so many years.

When Muckler resigned Redden this past spring, he said he wanted Redden back, his coach wanted him back, his teammates wanted him back, so we got him back. nuff said.


5. It has nothing to do with winning the Stanley Cup, and that was exactly the point. Yes, the Stanley is the Holiest of Holy Grails, and yes that is what every player and fan dreams of, but it isn't ALL there is to hockey, it isn't all that makes Hockey the greatest sport on the planet, dare I say the entire universe. With 30 teams in the cup race this year and that number growing exponentially into the future, the chances of winning the cup are small. Is Ottawa not a great hockey city? One only had to attend an event like the skills competition to feel the passion this city has for the sport and its team. This despite the fact that Ottawa has never won the cup in its current incarnation. Players like Wade Redden are superstars both on and off the ice, they help contribute to the excitement of the game and the entertainment of the sport. The game and this team simply would not be as much fun to watch without players like him. And I don't know about you, but considering that no one on the current Sens roster has won a Stanley Cup except Gerber...I take some comfort in knowing that there players who have won other prestigious titles, who have played in big games and can handle the pressure and know how to win.


6. With all due respect, who are you to assess what his potential should be? How many people in the entire WORLD have the career stats and talent that Wade Redden has? Not many. He is already in a very elite group of players in this world and has nothing to prove to anyone.


7. "...leading to Wade getting alot of the credit when most of it was due to those who had to cope with his loss beforehand."


I don't get it. If you don't want to give Wade any credit for what he contributes to the team, fine, but then his teammates could hardly be coping with his loss, when he has no positive influence on the team to begin with, now can they? You can't have it both ways. Either he is an asset to this team or he is not.


So many of you anti-reddenites are fond of bringing up his salary, so let me address that in closing. Is Wade Redden worth 6.5 million? I answer this question by asking another question:


Is Ray Emery worth 925,000 dollars? *or* Is Sidney Crosby worth 850,000 dollars?


The answer of course is no, if we were going to assign a dollar value to both Emery's and Crosby's performance this year, we all know they are worth a lot more than their current salaries, which is why they are in for some big raises this summer. The truth about hockey salaries is that you don't get paid for what you are worth that year, but what you were worth in previous years, and they project that forward. Teams gamble that you will produce for them. Crosby and Emery can both have stinker years next year, and totally bomb, and they will both be paid handsomely despite of it.

Wade Redden has paid his dues, he was given a contract that was evaluated on his past performance. If he hasn't earned that paycheque this year, he has earned it in previous years when he was earning less than what he was worth. That's the system folks, that is how it works. So quite blaming Wade. He didn't create the system, he is just in it for his fair share, and he has been more than fair to Ottawa, giving them the "hometown discount" than Chara refused to do.


Is Wade Redden having a 6.5 million dollar year? No. But I am sure no one feels worse about it than Wade Redden. Should the merits or lack there of his game be discussed here? Absolutely! This is what this forum is for, but attacking the man day in and day out with useless blanket assessments is just akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and is not the treatment that a player of Redden's calibre deserves.


My apologies in advance for the rant and the spelling mistakes. Its been a long day, and I am tired.


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Old
03-01-2007, 11:47 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billpo View Post
I see I'm geting to you. Who looks like the idiot now....

And by the way. You are one of the cheerleaders I'm talking about. There are a few people on this board who don't seem to accept that other people do not have the same opinions as they do and have to resort to calling them names.

Untill Reddens play picks up significantly, I will continue to question the contract that was awarded to him. Overpaid, and overated. Probably the worst dman on the ice this year. Even Corvo...YES Corvo looks better recently.

Yes redden has sort earned a pisily amount of his salary the last few games, but has a long way to go. But rest assured people, unless this team wins the cup. Mr Redden will be ripping off another team next year.

ps. I hope I havent hurt anybodys feelings.....

Psh, I respect other people's opinions as long as they have a reason to have these opinions. It's just like when people hate someone or something just "because". That drives me insane.

Did Redden kick your cat or something?

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Old
03-01-2007, 11:53 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by SilverCup View Post
Psh, I respect other people's opinions as long as they have a reason to have these opinions. It's just like when people hate someone or something just "because". That drives me insane.

Did Redden kick your cat or something?
he's given several valid reasons to critizine redden... the guy is not playing well at all.

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Old
03-01-2007, 11:59 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billpo View Post
I see I'm geting to you. Who looks like the idiot now....

And by the way. You are one of the cheerleaders I'm talking about. There are a few people on this board who don't seem to accept that other people do not have the same opinions as they do and have to resort to calling them names.

Untill Reddens play picks up significantly, I will continue to question the contract that was awarded to him. Overpaid, and overated. Probably the worst dman on the ice this year. Even Corvo...YES Corvo looks better recently.

Yes redden has sort earned a pisily amount of his salary the last few games, but has a long way to go. But rest assured people, unless this team wins the cup. Mr Redden will be ripping off another team next year.

ps. I hope I havent hurt anybodys feelings.....
i think i would agree with you more if you never had the same anti redden posts night in and night out, redden hasnt earned his 6.5 this year and thats plain and simple, but saying that he is the worst defenceman on team is the overstatement of the year, pointing out that a player isnt playing up to his potential is fine, but saying hes horrible EVERY single post even when it seems hes turning his game around doesnt make much sense

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Old
03-02-2007, 07:21 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCup View Post
Psh, I respect other people's opinions as long as they have a reason to have these opinions. It's just like when people hate someone or something just "because". That drives me insane.

Did Redden kick your cat or something?
Have you watched him play this year?
Are tou telling me you are happy with his performance?
Are you telling me that he is earning his 6.5 million?

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Old
03-02-2007, 08:46 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billpo View Post
Have you watched him play this year?
Are tou telling me you are happy with his performance?
Are you telling me that he is earning his 6.5 million?
The teams winning 21 of their last 28 games
Redden is in the lineup so he is not hampering the teams performance
Sure he could be better but bottom line is we are winning and it does not matter what is done in the regular season because as you said the playoffs and winning the cup is all that matters. So let the playoff run be the judge if he is worth the contract are not.

Until then could you stop with the Redden bashing? If playoffs and winning the cup is all that matters to you then why do you care about the regular season so much?

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Old
03-02-2007, 09:00 AM
  #107
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Lets go Redden!!!!

I believe in you baby !

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03-02-2007, 09:33 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Brandi View Post
Lets go Redden!!!!

I believe in you baby !

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Old
03-02-2007, 10:17 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylph View Post
I think it is interesting how I have gone from being neutral about Redden to becoming his biggest champion, lol. Funny, I started liking the Sens for one reason...Spezza. I love watching that boy play. Then, last year I became enthralled with the talent of Emery, when all of you were showing him NO LOVE...YES YOU, you all know who you are.

Redden won my heart last year at the playoffs with the way he played through what had to be immeasurable grief and sorrow and carried the Sens through the Tampa series. Since then, having become so many Sens fans' whipping boy, I have really grown to appreciate what a talent he is.

So Billpo, at the risk of sounding redundent, here it all is again, in point form:


1. Leads the Sens in ice time.
Not billpo but since he and I agree on this...

And that's great why? He's a defenseman, they habitually lead the teams in ice time.
Show us ice time vs.takeaways/turnovers.


Quote:
2. The best first pass maker in the game, period. full stop.
Opinion. Personally I would have to see a sampling of the #1 D-men in the league to pass this judgment. I'd argue Scott Nierdermayer is just as good.

Quote:
3. Power-play quarterback.
Agreed.

Quote:
4. His overall influence on his teammate is greatly undervalued. He gives them both
confidence, and a sense of calmness. He is highly valued and regarded by all his
teammates.
Source? This seems like opinion again. He's made Meszarous a brutal d-man this season and you'll find as many rumors that he has a negative impact.

Quote:
5. He has high value to the franchaise both on and off the ice. He is a NHL
superstar, an Allstar, and Olympian, and World Champion. He not only draws
people to the arena, but off ice he is argueably the Sen's most visable player at
charity events and community functions.
Most of that stuff is fluff.
I will say he holds value to the franchise but he certainly isn't the most visible player at events. Mike Fisher and Jason Spezza are out there more.

Quote:
6. He has been a consistent performer since playing in the juniors. If you look at his
career stats, they have been steady and incredible year after year even as a
rookie or before his NHL days. Compare that to a player like Chara who developed
into the star he is today....Redden was born a star player, his talent is inate.
To the contrary, they have not been steady.
From hockeydb:
GP G A PTS PIM GP G A PTS PIM
1993-94 Brandon Wheat Kings WHL 64 4 35 39 98 14 2 4 6 10
1994-95 Brandon Wheat Kings WHL 64 14 46 60 83 18 5 10 15 8
1995-96 Brandon Wheat Kings WHL 51 9 45 54 55 19 5 10 15 19
1996-97 Ottawa Senators NHL 82 6 24 30 41 7 1 3 4 2
1997-98 Ottawa Senators NHL 80 8 14 22 27 9 0 2 2 2
1998-99 Ottawa Senators NHL 72 8 21 29 54 4 1 2 3 2
1999-00 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 10 26 36 49 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 78 10 37 47 49 4 0 0 0 0
2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 79 9 25 34 48 12 3 2 5 6
2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 76 10 35 45 70 18 1 8 9 10
2003-04 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 17 26 43 65 7 1 0 1 2
2005-06 Ottawa Senators NHL 65 10 40 50 63 9 2 8 10 10
2006-07 Ottawa Senators NHL 47 6 22 28 32

What do we see?

With the Wheat Kings:
39 points first season, 60 points second season, 54 point second season.
Playoffs: 6 points, 15 points, 15 points.

Here, Redden shows he is at least showing up in the playoffs.

With the Ottawa Senators:

30 pts, 22 pts, 29 pts, 36 pts, 47 pts, 34 pts, 45 pts, 43 pts, 50 pts, 28 pts

What do we see?

Redden is at best a 30-40 point defenseman. Out of 10 seasons with the Senators, he has exceeded 40 points 4 times.

Now the best part, the Playoffs:

WIth the Sens:

4 points, 2 points, 3 points, 0 points, 5 points, 9 points, 1 point, 10 points.

But but Dan, you say...Redden has the best first pass in the league!
Reallly...interesting.
Then where the heck are those first passes going in the playoffs?


Perhaps Redden is passing to the boards, to the other team's forwards or to Spartacat so he can get a sub off the Master Blaster. Who knows what passes lurk in the mind and heart of Wade Redden?

Quote:
When Redden came back into the lineup after being injured the PP went from being ranked 29th to 16th and the turnover rate in the defensive zone drastically decreased.
Hmmm that's possible...but why don't we refer to NHL.com's actual game stats to validate or challenge your opinion. These are in reverse chronological, from most recent to farthest back, going to January 9 2006.

Redden's takeaways and giveaways, per game:
vs. Carolina (last game) 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Carolina 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Buffalo 2 TK, 2 GV
vs. Buffalo 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Edmonton 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Thrashers 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Panthers (4-0 win!) 1 TK, 4 GV
vs. Canadiens 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Canadiens 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Sabres 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Leafs 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Capitals 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Habs 0 TK, 2 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK, 3 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK, 2 GV
vs. Canucks 1 TK, 2 GV
vs. Caps 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Habs 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Rangers 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK , 2 GV

I won't flood the board with too many facts but that's a total of:

10 Takeaways, 23 giveaways...which belies your claim there are less giveaways since Redden is back.

I know, I know, you're saying: "Dan, it's craziness that a Defenseman should takeaway the puck more than he turns it over... "

Quote:
Redden can have a downswing, he can even have a bad year, but the Sens will always be a better team for having him in the lineup.
I'll give you this, but they haven't taken the next step with him in the line-up.
Perhaps this will be the year though!

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03-02-2007, 10:30 AM
  #110
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I would hardly use Redden's performance as PP quarterback as evidence of his utility.

IMO, our power play is brutal! Given the players we have, 16th (if that is accurate) is terrible. We should easily be in the top 5. Add to this our inability to score on 5 on 3s and we have a potential crisis. Special teams are key in the playoffs and I honestly see us losing in the first round if the PP does not improve.

The first thing I would do to try to jump start it is to take Redden off QB position and put Alfie back.

Redden has a good shot, but is simply not mobile enough to be a true PP QB. This shows in his bad habit of winding up and then shooting it right into the shin pads of the shot blocker, as opposed to just stepping around him the way Alfie used to...

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03-02-2007, 10:32 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
But but Dan, you say...Redden has the best first pass in the league!
Reallly...interesting.
Then where the heck are those first passes going in the playoffs?
Do you watch the Sens play in the playoffs? Our forwards do not crash the net, Redden makes a solid first pass to get the forwards into the offensive zone but instead of crashing the net they stay on the perimeter and take shots from 15-20 feet out. How is that Reddens fault?

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03-02-2007, 10:34 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs_NyQuil View Post
This shows in his bad habit of winding up and then shooting it right into the shin pads of the shot blocker, as opposed to just stepping around him the way Alfie used to...
They used to dive OUT of the way when Chara shot, Wade just doesn't know why his shots aren't as intimidating.

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03-02-2007, 10:35 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs_NyQuil View Post
I would hardly use Redden's performance as PP quarterback as evidence of his utility.

IMO, our power play is brutal! Given the players we have, 16th (if that is accurate) is terrible. We should easily be in the top 5. Add to this our inability to score on 5 on 3s and we have a potential crisis. Special teams are key in the playoffs and I honestly see us losing in the first round if the PP does not improve.

The first thing I would do to try to jump start it is to take Redden off QB position and put Alfie back.

Redden has a good shot, but is simply not mobile enough to be a true PP QB. This shows in his bad habit of winding up and then shooting it right into the shin pads of the shot blocker, as opposed to just stepping around him the way Alfie used to...
I have fond memories of him being able to do that before too.

I don't know why he keeps trying to shoot through them this year....

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Old
03-02-2007, 10:39 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post


Hmmm that's possible...but why don't we refer to NHL.com's actual game stats to validate or challenge your opinion. These are in reverse chronological, from most recent to farthest back, going to January 9 2006.

Redden's takeaways and giveaways, per game:
vs. Carolina (last game) 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Carolina 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Buffalo 2 TK, 2 GV
vs. Buffalo 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Edmonton 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Thrashers 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Panthers (4-0 win!) 1 TK, 4 GV
vs. Canadiens 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Canadiens 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Sabres 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Leafs 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Capitals 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Habs 0 TK, 2 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK, 3 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK, 2 GV
vs. Canucks 1 TK, 2 GV
vs. Caps 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Habs 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Rangers 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK , 2 GV

I won't flood the board with too many facts but that's a total of:

10 Takeaways, 23 giveaways...which belies your claim there are less giveaways since Redden is back.

I know, I know, you're saying: "Dan, it's craziness that a Defenseman should takeaway the puck more than he turns it over... "
Bryan McCabe 88 Giveaways 18 takeaways
Zdeno Chara 74 giveaways 28 takeaways
Rafalski 70 giveaways 36 takeaways
Lidstrom 67 giveaways 26 takeawys
Zubov 67 giveaways 26 takeaways

Redden 52 giveaways 18 takeaways (Has played 16 games less then them so he is right in line with defensemen like Lidstrom over the course of a whole season)

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03-02-2007, 10:46 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Source? This seems like opinion again. He's made Meszarous a brutal d-man this season and you'll find as many rumors that he has a negative impact.I'll give you this, but they haven't taken the next step with him in the line-up.
Perhaps this will be the year though!
Good to have hard information like that.

Interesting that he has made Meszaros a bad d-man and that there
are rumours that he has a negative impact.

Who are spreading those rumours- you and Bilppo?
Most of what you hear about the locker room is that he is an important and steadying influence.

If you are sold on some stats-at least the ones that you like to think support your argument(while of course dismissing those that don't)- go back the last 4 or 5 years and give us the win/loss stats of the Sens without Redden in the lineup.

Leave out this year if you like.

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03-02-2007, 11:11 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
I know, I know, you're saying: "Dan, it's craziness that a Defenseman should takeaway the puck more than he turns it over... "
I tend to take giveaway/takeaway stats with a grain of salt, since I'm pretty sure they miss a lot of things that could be construed as either. It's also far easier to give away the puck than to take it away, and I doubt they count intercepted passes as takeaways.

In general, Redden has had a rough season, but I don't think he's actively contributed anything negative to the team. We're doing pretty well, after all.

Oh, and expecting a 21 year old defenseman to be at the same level as he was during his amazing rookie season is wishful thinking. Meszaros doing worse this season has very little to do with the play of his defense partner.

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03-02-2007, 11:42 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Not billpo but since he and I agree on this...

And that's great why? He's a defenseman, they habitually lead the teams in ice time.
Show us ice time vs.takeaways/turnovers.




Opinion. Personally I would have to see a sampling of the #1 D-men in the league to pass this judgment. I'd argue Scott Nierdermayer is just as good.



Agreed.



Source? This seems like opinion again. He's made Meszarous a brutal d-man this season and you'll find as many rumors that he has a negative impact.



Most of that stuff is fluff.
I will say he holds value to the franchise but he certainly isn't the most visible player at events. Mike Fisher and Jason Spezza are out there more.



To the contrary, they have not been steady.
From hockeydb:
GP G A PTS PIM GP G A PTS PIM
1993-94 Brandon Wheat Kings WHL 64 4 35 39 98 14 2 4 6 10
1994-95 Brandon Wheat Kings WHL 64 14 46 60 83 18 5 10 15 8
1995-96 Brandon Wheat Kings WHL 51 9 45 54 55 19 5 10 15 19
1996-97 Ottawa Senators NHL 82 6 24 30 41 7 1 3 4 2
1997-98 Ottawa Senators NHL 80 8 14 22 27 9 0 2 2 2
1998-99 Ottawa Senators NHL 72 8 21 29 54 4 1 2 3 2
1999-00 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 10 26 36 49 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Ottawa Senators NHL 78 10 37 47 49 4 0 0 0 0
2001-02 Ottawa Senators NHL 79 9 25 34 48 12 3 2 5 6
2002-03 Ottawa Senators NHL 76 10 35 45 70 18 1 8 9 10
2003-04 Ottawa Senators NHL 81 17 26 43 65 7 1 0 1 2
2005-06 Ottawa Senators NHL 65 10 40 50 63 9 2 8 10 10
2006-07 Ottawa Senators NHL 47 6 22 28 32

What do we see?

With the Wheat Kings:
39 points first season, 60 points second season, 54 point second season.
Playoffs: 6 points, 15 points, 15 points.

Here, Redden shows he is at least showing up in the playoffs.

With the Ottawa Senators:

30 pts, 22 pts, 29 pts, 36 pts, 47 pts, 34 pts, 45 pts, 43 pts, 50 pts, 28 pts

What do we see?

Redden is at best a 30-40 point defenseman. Out of 10 seasons with the Senators, he has exceeded 40 points 4 times.

Now the best part, the Playoffs:

WIth the Sens:

4 points, 2 points, 3 points, 0 points, 5 points, 9 points, 1 point, 10 points.

But but Dan, you say...Redden has the best first pass in the league!
Reallly...interesting.
Then where the heck are those first passes going in the playoffs?


Perhaps Redden is passing to the boards, to the other team's forwards or to Spartacat so he can get a sub off the Master Blaster. Who knows what passes lurk in the mind and heart of Wade Redden?



Hmmm that's possible...but why don't we refer to NHL.com's actual game stats to validate or challenge your opinion. These are in reverse chronological, from most recent to farthest back, going to January 9 2006.

Redden's takeaways and giveaways, per game:
vs. Carolina (last game) 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Carolina 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Buffalo 2 TK, 2 GV
vs. Buffalo 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Edmonton 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Thrashers 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Panthers (4-0 win!) 1 TK, 4 GV
vs. Canadiens 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Canadiens 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Sabres 0 TK, 1 GV
vs. Leafs 1 TK, 1 GV
vs. Capitals 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Habs 0 TK, 2 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK, 3 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK, 2 GV
vs. Canucks 1 TK, 2 GV
vs. Caps 0 TK, 0 GV
vs. Habs 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Rangers 1 TK, 0 GV
vs. Bruins 0 TK , 2 GV

I won't flood the board with too many facts but that's a total of:

10 Takeaways, 23 giveaways...which belies your claim there are less giveaways since Redden is back.

I know, I know, you're saying: "Dan, it's craziness that a Defenseman should takeaway the puck more than he turns it over... "



I'll give you this, but they haven't taken the next step with him in the line-up.
Perhaps this will be the year though!
Take a bow my friend...take a bow....

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03-02-2007, 11:46 AM
  #118
Clutch Mediocrity
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Long post, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylph View Post
1. The McCabe reference went over my head, probably because I like McCabe, but that is a different debate. As for Redden's ice time, I completely disagree. When Redden was out of the lineup, it was clearly a burden for his teammates to make up that time, and it showed, the team looked haggard. Players' talent and productivity suffered from being overworked. Redden's stamina on the ice takes the heat off many other players, so they can play their best.
The McCabe reference was just to point out how little leading your team in ice-time can mean. Just like Redden, McCabe is not all that great defensively, doesn't have fan support all across the board, and is overpaid. But he still leads their team in ice. It doesn't make him their best defenseman because I think we'll all agree that Kaberle is. It just means he plays the most.

Players looking tired when Redden is out because they have to replace his minutes is a rather wak arguement. It doesn't show Wade Redden's value to this team in particular but more so reflects how important any top 4 defenseman is simply because of the ice time they log. We could easily pick up another quality defenseman this summer to eat Redden's ice-time and then nobody would notice the difference in this manner. Imagaine if Phillips or Volchenkov went down......then there'd be a REAL problem as the tough minutes would need filling.

Quote:
3. Again, I will respectively have to disagree on your assessment of Redden, and I wouldn't be alone. I'm not the one who coined Redden the Sen's "Quarterback of the Power Play", he is widely considered to be in that role by both his peers and pundits in this game, all of who are a lot more knowledgable about this game than little old moi.
I never disagreed with Redden not being the PP QB. My arguement was exactly the contrary. He is undsiputedly the QB and our PP is crappy. Therefore he must take a lot off the blame. I already mentioned his horrible inability to get shots through from the point.

Quote:
4. I wasn't refering to his defensive partner, I was refering to the entire team. Redden's teammates regularly sing his praises. His coaches love him, the media pundits love him, and let's face it, you don't get a call from the Great One to come play and represent your country if you are a mediocre defenseman. Redden has a long standing reputation for having ice water in his veins, and he doesn't wear the "A" for nothing on his jersey. He is known leader and he is known for performing under pressure. Are you willing to dismiss all of this? Are you prepared to say his reputation is undeserved and that he in fact has a negative influence on his teammates? If so, then kudos on Wade Redden for tricking so many people for so many years.

When Muckler resigned Redden this past spring, he said he wanted Redden back, his coach wanted him back, his teammates wanted him back, so we got him back. nuff said.
Maybe you weren't referring to his defensive partner but it's a point that simply cannot be ignored. He makes the players around him worse, if anything. That's very troublesome for your #1 defenseman with a 6.5M cap hit.

I can assure you Redden's 'A' is more for his seniority than anything as we have much better leaders on the team from what I can see on the ice. So I wouldn't put much stock into his letter. I don't see how being well liked makes him valuable to this team either....... most players are and as long as he isn't causing problems who cares? You do what's best for your hockey club for winning games not winning friends. Hossa was by all accounts loved in the dressing but ended up being deal in a hockey deal. Largely because of his salary. I hope the same happens with Redden this coming summer.

Quote:
5. It has nothing to do with winning the Stanley Cup, and that was exactly the point. Yes, the Stanley is the Holiest of Holy Grails, and yes that is what every player and fan dreams of, but it isn't ALL there is to hockey, it isn't all that makes Hockey the greatest sport on the planet, dare I say the entire universe. With 30 teams in the cup race this year and that number growing exponentially into the future, the chances of winning the cup are small. Is Ottawa not a great hockey city? One only had to attend an event like the skills competition to feel the passion this city has for the sport and its team. This despite the fact that Ottawa has never won the cup in its current incarnation. Players like Wade Redden are superstars both on and off the ice, they help contribute to the excitement of the game and the entertainment of the sport. The game and this team simply would not be as much fun to watch without players like him. And I don't know about you, but considering that no one on the current Sens roster has won a Stanley Cup except Gerber...I take some comfort in knowing that there players who have won other prestigious titles, who have played in big games and can handle the pressure and know how to win.
It's not all about winning the Cup? You could have fooled me. Maybe that's the attitude Redden has and is why he's historically played very poorly in the post-season.

I can't take comfort in any junior championships etc. I've followed junior hockey and the 67s long enough to know it means squat when trying to achieve NHL hardware. What I CAN look to for optomism is proven performance at the NHL level when it counts. Chris Phillips is a good example of that. Redden's dissapearing act is worrisome.

Quote:
6. With all due respect, who are you to assess what his potential should be? How many people in the entire WORLD have the career stats and talent that Wade Redden has? Not many. He is already in a very elite group of players in this world and has nothing to prove to anyone.
It's not just me. Go ask around and see how many people were just waiting for Wade Redden to truly break out offensively (like last season) and be among the leading scorers from the blueline. As you said, he's got tons of talent.

Redden has everything left to prove. He has to prove that as a key player he can lead this team, which has historically been labeled a choker (not always fairly), deep into the playoffs. Not just coast along for the ride and often times be a defensive liability. That and always manage to be on the ice for the defensive breakdown that leads to our knockout (Pominville, the 2003 goal against NJ by 'He who must not be named').

Quote:
7. "...leading to Wade getting alot of the credit when most of it was due to those who had to cope with his loss beforehand."

I don't get it. If you don't want to give Wade any credit for what he contributes to the team, fine, but then his teammates could hardly be coping with his loss, when he has no positive influence on the team to begin with, now can they? You can't have it both ways. Either he is an asset to this team or he is not.
My view on Redden is that he's definatly an asset to this team during the regular season, but is often still a liability defensively and somehow manages to make his D partner worse. Save for one playoff run (which didn't even have a playoff feel, effectively putting him right into his comfort zone) he has not been an asset come the post-season. All in all he's an alright defenseman making 6.5M. You can't have that in a cap world so I'd like to see him gone.

Quote:
So many of you anti-reddenites are fond of bringing up his salary, so let me address that in closing. Is Wade Redden worth 6.5 million? I answer this question by asking another question:

Is Ray Emery worth 925,000 dollars? *or* Is Sidney Crosby worth 850,000 dollars?

The answer of course is no, if we were going to assign a dollar value to both Emery's and Crosby's performance this year, we all know they are worth a lot more than their current salaries, which is why they are in for some big raises this summer. The truth about hockey salaries is that you don't get paid for what you are worth that year, but what you were worth in previous years, and they project that forward. Teams gamble that you will produce for them. Crosby and Emery can both have stinker years next year, and totally bomb, and they will both be paid handsomely despite of it.

Wade Redden has paid his dues, he was given a contract that was evaluated on his past performance. If he hasn't earned that paycheque this year, he has earned it in previous years when he was earning less than what he was worth. That's the system folks, that is how it works. So quite blaming Wade. He didn't create the system, he is just in it for his fair share, and he has been more than fair to Ottawa, giving them the "hometown discount" than Chara refused to do.


Is Wade Redden having a 6.5 million dollar year? No. But I am sure no one feels worse about it than Wade Redden. Should the merits or lack there of his game be discussed here? Absolutely! This is what this forum is for, but attacking the man day in and day out with useless blanket assessments is just akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and is not the treatment that a player of Redden's calibre deserves.


My apologies in advance for the rant and the spelling mistakes. Its been a long day, and I am tired.
You can't fairly make those compairisons as both players are either on or just coming off of their rookie contract. At any rate that shouldn't be an issue. A player making less than he's worth is not a problem towards the cap.

You admit Redden is overpaid but have no problem with it? It's not like we're the New York Rangers in the old CBA. Salaries play a huge factor in a team's success right now.

How has Wade Redden paid his dues? By simply sticking around? Or Maybe it's because of his dissapearing act swhen we've needed him the most (see: playoffs). By making his partners worse while always finding a way to be tied to our final playoff blow? If you want a player who has paid his dues look no futrther than Alfredsson who has always worked hard, often raises his game in the clutch, and even gave back some salary to the team in the past (not demanding upwards of 6M, hence handcuffing the team financially like some other players).

Redden giving us a hometown discount is laughable as he's the 4th highest paid defenseman in the league when it's all averaged out. Only Lidstrom, Chara, and Niedermayer have higher cap hits. Chara is one of a kind so his value gets inflated a little, understandably. The other two are undisputedly the best 2 defensemen in the league and are on a totally different level than Wade Redden with the Cups to prove it.

I think Chara would have signed for 6.5M here aswell but management chose to make Redden their guy. Zee got more though by testing the open market.

----------------

I can see you really like Wade Redden, just like a few others on this board. But I really can't buy any of those points. Quite a few of them seem like excuses for a player making 6.5M who has historically not raised his game and hence not earned his money. I think Ottawa was just scared of losing both their top defensemen and overpaid to keep one. At his salary these excuses and compairisons just don't fly. The fact is almost evey other player in his pay-bracket has gotten it done or at the very least is not underperforming / handling the "tough" minutes on D. At 4.5M I too was willing to step up for Wade. But making franchise player money it's now his turn to stand up....... to stand up and finally deliver when it counts.

We'll see what happens this post-season. Based on history I'm not expecting much. Again though, a strong outing and I'll eat my words. This spring will no doubt have an impact on what happens this summer with #6.

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03-02-2007, 11:48 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquil View Post
I tend to take giveaway/takeaway stats with a grain of salt, since I'm pretty sure they miss a lot of things that could be construed as either. It's also far easier to give away the puck than to take it away, and I doubt they count intercepted passes as takeaways.

In general, Redden has had a rough season, but I don't think he's actively contributed anything negative to the team. We're doing pretty well, after all.

Oh, and expecting a 21 year old defenseman to be at the same level as he was during his amazing rookie season is wishful thinking. Meszaros doing worse this season has very little to do with the play of his defense partner.
I have been listening to the radio(team 1200), and there are a lot of Redden supporters blaming Mez for Redden's dismal play. I'm sure there are a few on this forum doing the same.

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03-02-2007, 11:57 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Mediocrity View Post
Long post, sorry.



The McCabe reference was just to point out how little leading your team in ice-time can mean. Just like Redden, McCabe is not all that great defensively, doesn't have fan support all across the board, and is overpaid. But he still leads their team in ice. It doesn't make him their best defenseman because I think we'll all agree that Kaberle is. It just means he plays the most.

Players looking tired when Redden is out because they have to replace his minutes is a rather wak arguement. It doesn't show Wade Redden's value to this team in particular but more so reflects how important any top 4 defenseman is simply because of the ice time they log. We could easily pick up another quality defenseman this summer to eat Redden's ice-time and then nobody would notice the difference in this manner. Imagaine if Phillips or Volchenkov went down......then there'd be a REAL problem as the tough minutes would need filling.



I never disagreed with Redden not being the PP QB. My arguement was exactly the contrary. He is undsiputedly the QB and our PP is crappy. Therefore he must take a lot off the blame. I already mentioned his horrible inability to get shots through from the point.



Maybe you weren't referring to his defensive partner but it's a point that simply cannot be ignored. He makes the players around him worse, if anything. That's very troublesome for your #1 defenseman with a 6.5M cap hit.

I can assure you Redden's 'A' is more for his seniority than anything as we have much better leaders on the team from what I can see on the ice. So I wouldn't put much stock into his letter. I don't see how being well liked makes him valuable to this team either....... most players are and as long as he isn't causing problems who cares? You do what's best for your hockey club for winning games not winning friends. Hossa was by all accounts loved in the dressing but ended up being deal in a hockey deal. Largely because of his salary. I hope the same happens with Redden this coming summer.



It's not all about winning the Cup? You could have fooled me. Maybe that's the attitude Redden has and is why he's historically played very poorly in the post-season.

I can't take comfort in any junior championships etc. I've followed junior hockey and the 67s long enough to know it means squat when trying to achieve NHL hardware. What I CAN look to for optomism is proven performance at the NHL level when it counts. Chris Phillips is a good example of that. Redden's dissapearing act is worrisome.



It's not just me. Go ask around and see how many people were just waiting for Wade Redden to truly break out offensively (like last season) and be among the leading scorers from the blueline. As you said, he's got tons of talent.

Redden has everything left to prove. He has to prove that as a key player he can lead this team, which has historically been labeled a choker (not always fairly), deep into the playoffs. Not just coast along for the ride and often times be a defensive liability. That and always manage to be on the ice for the defensive breakdown that leads to our knockout (Pominville, the 2003 goal against NJ by 'He who must not be named').



My view on Redden is that he's definatly an asset to this team during the regular season, but is often still a liability defensively and somehow manages to make his D partner worse. Save for one playoff run (which didn't even have a playoff feel, effectively putting him right into his comfort zone) he has not been an asset come the post-season. All in all he's an alright defenseman making 6.5M. You can't have that in a cap world so I'd like to see him gone.



You can't fairly make those compairisons as both players are either on or just coming off of their rookie contract. At any rate that shouldn't be an issue. A player making less than he's worth is not a problem towards the cap.

You admit Redden is overpaid but have no problem with it? It's not like we're the New York Rangers in the old CBA. Salaries play a huge factor in a team's success right now.

How has Wade Redden paid his dues? By simply sticking around? Or Maybe it's because of his dissapearing act swhen we've needed him the most (see: playoffs). By making his partners worse while always finding a way to be tied to our final playoff blow? If you want a player who has paid his dues look no futrther than Alfredsson who has always worked hard, often raises his game in the clutch, and even gave back some salary to the team in the past (not demanding upwards of 6M, hence handcuffing the team financially like some other players).

Redden giving us a hometown discount is laughable as he's the 4th highest paid defenseman in the league when it's all averaged out. Only Lidstrom, Chara, and Niedermayer have higher cap hits. Chara is one of a kind so his value gets inflated a little, understandably. The other two are undisputedly the best 2 defensemen in the league and are on a totally different level than Wade Redden with the Cups to prove it.

I think Chara would have signed for 6.5M here aswell but management chose to make Redden their guy. Zee got more though by testing the open market.

----------------

I can see you really like Wade Redden, just like a few others on this board. But I really can't buy any of those points. Quite a few of them seem like excuses for a player making 6.5M who has historically not raised his game and hence not earned his money. I think Ottawa was just scared of losing both their top defensemen and overpaid to keep one. At his salary these excuses and compairisons just don't fly. The fact is almost evey other player in his pay-bracket has gotten it done or at the very least is not underperforming / handling the "tough" minutes on D. At 4.5M I too was willing to step up for Wade. But making franchise player money it's now his turn to stand up....... to stand up and finally deliver when it counts.

We'll see what happens this post-season. Based on history I'm not expecting much. Again though, a strong outing and I'll eat my words. This spring will no doubt have an impact on what happens this summer with #6.
Beautiful......brings a tear to my eye.....

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03-02-2007, 12:44 PM
  #121
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For 15% of our cap, I think we have every right to be dissapointed in Redden's performance so far this year. He is not even matched up against the other teams top players and yet his +/- is 4, ties him with Denis Hamel for 12th on our team.

People are calling him a Powerplay QB - is that even true? Is the PP really run through him or are people just saying that becasue he plays the point on the PP? It seems to me that the PP is run by Alfie or Spezza.

I read here that he has the best first pass in the league 'stop. period' . How do you even judge that? Do we see Neids, Zubov, Gonchar, Lidstrom or others enough to know that? Or is it a case where a media guy said he has a good first pass and over time the story has grown?

Cudos to Redden for all him community work which is a lot and probably more then we even know about. Redden is a very good player, probably takes more flak then he should but I just don't think he is worth that much of our cap space. I am hoping that he has great success in the playoffs along with the team and then we deal him to EDM for some of those picks/prospects they have accumulated in the Pronger and Smyth trades.

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03-02-2007, 12:52 PM
  #122
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I agree with everything Clutch Mediocrity is saying. It's really not a matter of being "anti-Redden;" I'm anything but. I was fine with keeping Redden over Chara, and I even accepted the price tag at the time, though I wasn't thrilled with it.

I think it's almost impossible to "earn" a $6.5 M contract, so I don't think my expectations for Wade were unreasonable. I did, however, expect Redden to step up his game this year. To show something extra to prove that he is the guy on that team. He talked a great game after the playoffs last year, and I expected him to come in this season and play with that same fire. We can praise his assets all we want, but he absolutely hasn't done that. There's no way to couch the fact that the guy is having a bad year, and past a point, that price tag has to become a factor.

Yes, he got off to a bad start with injuries, and yes, he's shown some signs of improvement lately . . . but he has a long, long way to go before I'm satisfied with his performance again. If he plays well in the playoffs, then great, but I have to say that as we stand, my expectations are not high.

As for the hometown discount thing, I don't buy that for a second. He was willing to take 6 if Chara took 6, but without Chara it had to be 6.5? Meh. (I don't expect that players should take a hometown discount, for the record, it's just that pointing to Redden as a case of selflessness doesn't fly with me.)

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03-02-2007, 01:18 PM
  #123
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It will be interesting to see how Redden plays next year, seeing how it is the last year of this contract and he'll be playing for a new one. Personally, I don't think Ottawa will re-sign him unless he goes down in price and will likely get moved between the end of this season and next years trade deadline. I guess, it will depend on whether we win the cup or not but I do think he is overpriced for this market as Hossa, Chara and Havlat all were. Winning the cup could mean it will take us longer to move him during the year whereas the sooner we lose in the playoffs the sooner he gets moved. I've liked Redden over the last 10 years, he has been good for this organization but I too think his time here is done and they should move him to free up that money to get one or two better players.

Redden to Nashville for Hartnell and Shea Webber would be a nice return in the off season and would save us a little cash.

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03-02-2007, 01:30 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post

Redden to Nashville for Hartnell and Shea Webber would be a nice return in the off season and would save us a little cash.
Hartnall is a UFA this off season.

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03-02-2007, 01:35 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
To the contrary, they have not been steady.
From hockeydb:....

What do we see?

With the Wheat Kings:
39 points first season, 60 points second season, 54 point second season.
Playoffs: 6 points, 15 points, 15 points.

Here, Redden shows he is at least showing up in the playoffs.

With the Ottawa Senators:

30 pts, 22 pts, 29 pts, 36 pts, 47 pts, 34 pts, 45 pts, 43 pts, 50 pts, 28 pts

What do we see?

Redden is at best a 30-40 point defenseman. Out of 10 seasons with the Senators, he has exceeded 40 points 4 times.

Now the best part, the Playoffs:

WIth the Sens:

4 points, 2 points, 3 points, 0 points, 5 points, 9 points, 1 point, 10 points.
Games played? You completely ignored them... which pretty much killed any point you were trying to make. Do you remember Grade 9 math when they taught you fractions... and that if you were going to work with fractions like pts / game... the denominators had to be the same?

One quick example is the WHL stats you're using as proof... OMG he had 5 less points in his 3rd year, he wasn't improving. Except that he played 13 less games.

You also counted 10 seasons... which means that you counted this season. Let's ignore the fact that Redden is on pace to get 40 points this season even throught injuries. And the 4 x 40 point seasons.... came in his last 5 full seasons. So unless you want to start claiming that Joe Thornton in his prime is a 7 to 125 point player, you might think of dropping his 1st few years as unrepresentative of who he is now.


IMO, Redden's been bad and Meszaros has been bad. Either they turn it around or Preissing gets promoted up with Redden. There's no use having somebody around to "stabilize" the 3rd pairing if the top pairing is swiss cheese.

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