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Raffi Torres and Joffrey Lupul examples of failed season in Edmonton

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Old
03-02-2007, 08:08 PM
  #1
The Kingslayer
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Raffi Torres and Joffrey Lupul examples of failed season in Edmonton

Not sure if this has been posted. Wondering if u guys agree or disagree with the article.


http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?articleid...e&service=page

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03-02-2007, 08:15 PM
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yah, this was on TSN too,

it's a good article,It doesnt paint a rosey picture, nor should it. its not far from the truth, thats for sure. Torres seems to have the right attitude though.

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03-02-2007, 08:25 PM
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Saw this earlier. Spot on with how these 2 have been really underachieving this year.

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03-02-2007, 10:18 PM
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There's always next year.

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03-02-2007, 10:30 PM
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Lupul has definately been a underachiever theres no doubt about that.

but, I think everyones hopes for Torres where WAY over the top was part of the problem for him. He's on pace to better his career high. I think that we're really starting to see Torres for what he is, which is to say a decent second liner but if he hits 60 points at any point of his career personally i'd be very suprised.

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03-02-2007, 11:22 PM
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Lupul has definately been a underachiever theres no doubt about that.

but, I think everyones hopes for Torres where WAY over the top was part of the problem for him. He's on pace to better his career high. I think that we're really starting to see Torres for what he is, which is to say a decent second liner but if he hits 60 points at any point of his career personally i'd be very suprised.
The thing is though at 60 pts and with the physical element raffi brings and usually reliable ES play he could be the type of guy along with Stoll who dominates games while being in 60 pt range.

hopefully Raffi someday will get more of a handle on special teams so that he can increase his minutes. Alternately if the NHL calls a little less he gets 16mins a night where he can make more of an *impact*

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03-02-2007, 11:31 PM
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Just my luck, I took both of these guys in my draft this year. I still like Torres, but Lupul has not shown me anything. There are some nights Lupul looks out of place in the NHL. He has average speed, is not aggresive, does not like to grind it out in front of the net and cannot beat guys one on one. What is the upside????

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03-02-2007, 11:36 PM
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Just my luck, I took both of these guys in my draft this year. I still like Torres, but Lupul has not shown me anything. There are some nights Lupul looks out of place in the NHL. He has average speed, is not aggresive, does not like to grind it out in front of the net and cannot beat guys one on one. What is the upside????
That he's our 2nd leading scorer on a horrible year ?

Sorry man, not sure that will cheer anybody up.

The kid can score and has shown signs but ina very disoriented year and tough year to join the team. I'm willing to give him one more year here before judgement.

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03-03-2007, 12:33 AM
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Lupul is still quite young and most happy to be playing for his hometown team. Like all "scorers" he tends to be streaky a tendency seasoned scouts noted years ago. It would be incorrect to label Lupul anywhere a bust at this point.

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03-03-2007, 02:24 AM
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These two amongst others are probably the biggest underachievers on the team. Torres at least plays well in spurts and has a physical presence which can be useful in injuring key players.

Lupul on the other hand, has been pretty well invisible and useless in his 1st year here. Everyone says he's young and will improve in time. I have my doubts though. If a guy doesn't at least have the smarts to play well without the puck, I don't see him being a prominent force in the future.

The blame for sure can be spread amongst other players as well. Pisani, Smith, Bergeron are ones that come in mind. Horcoff was bad in the 1st half but is playing better now, Hemsky is worst than last year which was his breakout year and there have been injuries to key players like Stoll, Moreau and others.

These 2 plus Smith would be the 1st ones I'd trade if there were better players to be had.

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Old
03-03-2007, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ice berg slim View Post
Not sure if this has been posted. Wondering if u guys agree or disagree with the article.

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?articleid...e&service=page
no need to read the arti...YES!!!

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Old
03-03-2007, 03:26 PM
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Lupul and Torres

Agree.
What I'd like to see, though, is MacTavish turn Lupul and Torres loose in the final 17 games of the season with nothing to lose and see what they can do. More ice time. More opportunity.
That will give us a read on both of them.

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03-03-2007, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CallMeWalter View Post
Agree.
What I'd like to see, though, is MacTavish turn Lupul and Torres loose in the final 17 games of the season with nothing to lose and see what they can do. More ice time. More opportunity.
That will give us a read on both of them.
I don't agree with this premise at all. It's something I heard from Bob Stauffer on Lupul earlier this week as well. (and yes we all realize that Bob has an unhealthy fixation on Lupul)

If they were good enough, they would have shown something: flashes of brilliance or solid play. And yet we are still sitting after all this time with inconsistency. That's not exactly something that turns around at the flip of a switch.

There's a reason why Lupul doesn't see first unit pp time: he isn't good at it. The guy has been at a 3-3.5 PPP/hr player for at least 2 years now. Considering most of our pp unit this season were 4+ PPP/hr guys, I'd say that Lupul didn't deserve it unless we wanted to tank our pp even worse. Sometimes, no matter what you think of the skillset, it just doesn't work.

Pouliot has worked hard and earned his way into garnering at least 2nd line ES time. That's a testament to how he's been playing compared to some of the guys on this team. I don't see why a player needs special treatment.

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03-03-2007, 06:22 PM
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I don't agree with this premise at all. It's something I heard from Bob Stauffer on Lupul earlier this week as well. (and yes we all realize that Bob has an unhealthy fixation on Lupul)

If they were good enough, they would have shown something: flashes of brilliance or solid play. And yet we are still sitting after all this time with inconsistency. That's not exactly something that turns around at the flip of a switch.

There's a reason why Lupul doesn't see first unit pp time: he isn't good at it. The guy has been at a 3-3.5 PPP/hr player for at least 2 years now. Considering most of our pp unit this season were 4+ PPP/hr guys, I'd say that Lupul didn't deserve it unless we wanted to tank our pp even worse. Sometimes, no matter what you think of the skillset, it just doesn't work.

Pouliot has worked hard and earned his way into garnering at least 2nd line ES time. That's a testament to how he's been playing compared to some of the guys on this team. I don't see why a player needs special treatment.
You're right.
My only premise is this: with what's invested in Lupul, as the main guy coming back in the Pronger trade, and Torres, it makes sense for the Oilers to try to help them at least salvage something from this season, if only a little confidence.

I'm not saying they should have been handed minutes they hadn't earned earlier this season. Now, though, with nothing on the line, there's no harm in seeing if they can finish strong. Likewise Jacques, Syvret etc. If the Oilers can't bring up Schremp, Brodziak and other kids from the farm because they're out of call-ups, why not turn the younger guys who are already here loose and see what they can do?

Pouliot, as you say, has also earned the chance to play more. There might be time for all of them as lousy as Hemsky, Pisani and some others have been, no?

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03-03-2007, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CallMeWalter View Post
You're right.
My only premise is this: with what's invested in Lupul, as the main guy coming back in the Pronger trade, and Torres, it makes sense for the Oilers to try to help them at least salvage something from this season, if only a little confidence.
For PR reasons? I'm not so sure that that's a valid enough reason to justify that kind of action. If we want to play the confidence game, there is also the potential that by placing them into a more difficult role (ie/ the one that Horcoff is currently playing against top opposition), we may damage their confidence even further because we are putting them in a position to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallmeWalter
I'm not saying they should have been handed minutes they hadn't earned earlier this season. Now, though, with nothing on the line, there's no harm in seeing if they can finish strong. Likewise Jacques, Syvret etc. If the Oilers can't bring up Schremp, Brodziak and other kids from the farm because they're out of call-ups, why not turn the younger guys who are already here loose and see what they can do?
I think MacT still wants to win games out there regardless of the situation right now. I've always thought it important that you don't forcefeed kids too soon. It surely hasn't turned out all that well for Smid this season. Frankly, I'm not sure how beneficial it would be for the club development-wise if the Oilers manage to lose by potentially an even worse margin than they have been.


Side Note:

Of the forwards on the club, Lupul and Torres are 2nd and 3rd respectively on the club with total ES TOI behind only Horcoff. I'd say MacT's given them a lot of rope to hang themselves with this season. If you think they've struggled, it hasn't been because of lack of icetime at ES. If you were leaning towards pp time, both of those players have never been good at that particular situation so I'm not exactly sure what the extra time is going to do there.

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Old
03-04-2007, 09:31 AM
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On your side note, not really true.

Torres hasn't shown much on special teams but Lupul scored 12 of his 28 goals with Anaheim in 05-06 on the PP and added two more shorthanded. I don't know how that translates to not being very good in that situation.

Torres is streaky and probably always will be. At least he hits and agitates on occasion when the puck isn't going in for him.

Lupul doesn't have that grit and if he isn't scoring he isn't doing much. There is nothing wrong with putting him in a position to succeed at this point in the season. Again, whether you see him as a long-term Oiler or want him traded at the earliest opportunity, there's absolutely no downside in trying to get Lupul going right now, so let's not split hairs.

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03-04-2007, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CallMeWalter View Post
On your side note, not really true.

Torres hasn't shown much on special teams but Lupul scored 12 of his 28 goals with Anaheim in 05-06 on the PP and added two more shorthanded. I don't know how that translates to not being very good in that situation.
I don't know how you can say that it's not true at all. At ES, MacT has given them plenty of rope to hang themselves. In that particular situation, you cannot argue that guys like Reasoner and Sykora have garnered more icetime.

PP is a different situation. You say that Lupul is a good pp producer?

In ANA last season (probably his best performance on the pp in a season so far) he had 23 PP pts in 376:01 minutes. That translates into a 3.67 PPP/hr rate. He may have put up a lot of pts but he certainly didn't do it very efficiently in ANA. Ryan Getzlaf in comparison that season: 22 PP pts in 224:44 with a rate of 5.87 PPP/hr.

Look up all the top pp producers in the league. All the good ones are at the very least 4 PPP/hr. Heck, on the Oilers' themselves they are a few guys that are all better than Lupul's best year.

Petr Sykora: 22 PP pts - 312:11 - 4.23 PPP/hr
Shawn Horcoff: 20 PP pts - 238:29 - 5.03 PPP/hr
Ales Hemsky: 23 PP pts - 251:12 - 5.49 PPP/hr
(Ryan Smyth and Stoll were also higher as well)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallmeWalter
Lupul doesn't have that grit and if he isn't scoring he isn't doing much. There is nothing wrong with putting him in a position to succeed at this point in the season. Again, whether you see him as a long-term Oiler or want him traded at the earliest opportunity, there's absolutely no downside in trying to get Lupul going right now, so let's not split hairs.
If he isn't scoring, though, it's true that he isn't doing much. A testament to how poorly he's played this season is the fact that he doesn't seem able to win puck battles and gain possession of the puck: after all, it's difficult to score if you can't garner possession.

Making him confident and forefeeding him opportunities at the detriment of the team is not something that I would consider. Lupul needs to become a better player at ES first and foremost. It has nothing to do with confidence about his shot. He's got to make the turnaround that Stoll made this season after a couple months. That's up to him and not the coaching staff. I'm not worried about his counting numbers at this point: I want him to be a better, more reliable player because only then does he really benefit the team.

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03-04-2007, 10:47 AM
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Lupul's 28 goal season may go down as the same calibre anomoly as Dvoraks 31 goal season once upon a time.

Lupul doesn't have any of the other skills Dvo does though.

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03-04-2007, 11:14 AM
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Lupul's 28 goal season may go down as the same calibre anomoly as Dvoraks 31 goal season once upon a time.

Lupul doesn't have any of the other skills Dvo does though.
Trade Lupul back to Anaheim and lets test your hypothesis. Carlyle said Lupul is the type of guy who you might not notice too much but then check the stat sheet and he has 2-3 pts. In Anaheim, Lupul could get away with playing like that. Selanne and McDonald are the marquee players and expected to produce. Lupul could slide under the radar and play his game. Now that he is in Edmonton, Lupul's shortcomings are magnified and the weight of expectations IMO is getting to the kid. He is a scorer and you don't score too much without confidence.

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03-04-2007, 02:26 PM
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Lupul

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Originally Posted by momentai View Post
I don't know how you can say that it's not true at all. At ES, MacT has given them plenty of rope to hang themselves. In that particular situation, you cannot argue that guys like Reasoner and Sykora have garnered more icetime.

PP is a different situation. You say that Lupul is a good pp producer?

In ANA last season (probably his best performance on the pp in a season so far) he had 23 PP pts in 376:01 minutes. That translates into a 3.67 PPP/hr rate. He may have put up a lot of pts but he certainly didn't do it very efficiently in ANA. Ryan Getzlaf in comparison that season: 22 PP pts in 224:44 with a rate of 5.87 PPP/hr.

Look up all the top pp producers in the league. All the good ones are at the very least 4 PPP/hr. Heck, on the Oilers' themselves they are a few guys that are all better than Lupul's best year.

---------
OK, you're a last word kind of guy (although I'm probably guilty of that for responding), so I'll post this and you can come back and get last last word in.

First: I never said Lupul was a good power play producer. I questioned your suggestion he wasn't very good on the PP. And I didn't suggest what you said "wasn't true at all." I said "not really true."

Second: there are, to use the old saying, lies, damn lies and statistics. They are readily available and you can make them say whatever you want. So, Lupul is .33 under the cut-off line you deem acceptable. Whatever. What do your numbers say about first-unit and second-unit power play time? There are variables.

Third: Lupul's best performance on the PP in a season so far? I'd hope so as last season was just his second in the NHL. So, how misleading is his "best year" reference?

Again, we're splitting hairs. One more time: there is no downside to giving Lupul the chance to finish the season strong. Yes, having him show something 5-on-5 would be a start, but if throwing him out there on the PP builds his confidence or -- another non-statistical factor -- does anything to help him succeed, there's nothing wrong with it.
No statistics you'd care to cite change that premise.
Out. Done. Have at it.

----------

Petr Sykora: 22 PP pts - 312:11 - 4.23 PPP/hr
Shawn Horcoff: 20 PP pts - 238:29 - 5.03 PPP/hr
Ales Hemsky: 23 PP pts - 251:12 - 5.49 PPP/hr
(Ryan Smyth and Stoll were also higher as well)



If he isn't scoring, though, it's true that he isn't doing much. A testament to how poorly he's played this season is the fact that he doesn't seem able to win puck battles and gain possession of the puck: after all, it's difficult to score if you can't garner possession.

Making him confident and forefeeding him opportunities at the detriment of the team is not something that I would consider. Lupul needs to become a better player at ES first and foremost. It has nothing to do with confidence about his shot. He's got to make the turnaround that Stoll made this season after a couple months. That's up to him and not the coaching staff. I'm not worried about his counting numbers at this point: I want him to be a better, more reliable player because only then does he really benefit the team.

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Old
03-04-2007, 02:39 PM
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While I agree with the article that these two players have had an off-season, development of young players is not a straight line improvement every year. Check out Smyth's stats when he was a young player and you will see that his production dipped dramatically as well.

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03-04-2007, 02:41 PM
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Trade Lupul back to Anaheim and lets test your hypothesis. Carlyle said Lupul is the type of guy who you might not notice too much but then check the stat sheet and he has 2-3 pts. In Anaheim, Lupul could get away with playing like that. Selanne and McDonald are the marquee players and expected to produce. Lupul could slide under the radar and play his game. Now that he is in Edmonton, Lupul's shortcomings are magnified and the weight of expectations IMO is getting to the kid. He is a scorer and you don't score too much without confidence.
I certainly am hoping this is mostly what it boils down to is confidence. But honestly the pressure is really off of him at this point and most of the team. Expectations have dropped off a lot for this season so I am curious to see how he produces the rest of this year. I think that might give us an idea of what to expect or not expect next year.

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03-04-2007, 02:46 PM
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The Oilers need to hang on to Torres. He's definitely got the tools to be a fantastic forward for a years on this team. He's just having a bad year, happens to most players.

Lupul, on the other hand, is totally useless. Has anyone seen even GLIMPSES of the so-called talent he has? I keep watching for them and I never see them.

What I see is a slow, physically weak player with no playmaking ability, defensive awarness or leadership skills. I've seen his "quick release" maybe a half-dozen times this season. Everyone keeps saying that Lupul is a talent that will break out, but I just don't see it. There just isn't much there.

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03-04-2007, 03:04 PM
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I'm not sure there's any guarantee Lupul is a talent who will break out either -- even with the added ice time I've been arguing might be worth a try.

That said, the best thing might be to hope he can at least raise his value marginally with a decent finish to the season and then try to get something for him. Best case is he responds in these final 16 games and starts to turn it around. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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03-05-2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc View Post
Trade Lupul back to Anaheim and lets test your hypothesis. Carlyle said Lupul is the type of guy who you might not notice too much but then check the stat sheet and he has 2-3 pts. In Anaheim, Lupul could get away with playing like that. Selanne and McDonald are the marquee players and expected to produce. Lupul could slide under the radar and play his game. Now that he is in Edmonton, Lupul's shortcomings are magnified and the weight of expectations IMO is getting to the kid. He is a scorer and you don't score too much without confidence.


Deal.

Oh, wait.... we're supposed to ask for something back?

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