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Raffi Torres and Joffrey Lupul examples of failed season in Edmonton

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03-05-2007, 12:42 PM
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I do not see anything in Lupul. He hasn't proven to be a first shot scorer even though he had a great year last year. He creates absolutely nothing in the offensive zone. When he carries the puck, the only thing that I see happening is a turnover and he doesn't have any skills that set him apart from the other players on the ice. To me he is a bust. Watching him in the WJHC and here this year I cannot see how he is going to fill a top 6 role. At least Torres brings elements to the ice that are valuable as a top 6 player. He is physical and has the nose for the net. He also makes nice plays from time to time although not his true responsibility. Lupul does not make good puck decisions, his creativity is non-existent, and his desire, other than a few games, should be in question. I can see Torres returning to form, I can't see Lupul doing the same.

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03-05-2007, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by OntOilFan View Post
What I see is a slow, physically weak player with no playmaking ability, defensive awarness or leadership skills. I've seen his "quick release" maybe a half-dozen times this season. Everyone keeps saying that Lupul is a talent that will break out, but I just don't see it. There just isn't much there.
You see what you want to see, and you made up your mind a long time ago. Lupul isn't slow, and playmaking is fine. His efforts been better lately, but he still seems like a defeated man out there. Truthfully, I don't think he's as bad defensively as some make out...He's about -4 over the last 50 games I would guess (since he rocketed off to a stellar -14 in no time)...not everybody has to be Pisani, but if he's gonna be weaker than avg defensively he's got to put up points.

I'll agree on the quick release though, he's got to get that shot off WAY faster. He needs the confidence to let it go, some more size, and a lot grit. I've seen glimpses of the player people want him to be, but he's definitely got to bring it more often. I do fall in with the group who wants to give him another season to put it together, obviously.

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03-05-2007, 01:02 PM
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Geez, some of you should really take the time to check out the stats of some other solid players who took more than a couple of seasons to find their legs.

One of them was Mark Messier. His sophomore season in the NHL was Lupul-ish. And if I recall, Messier turned out to be not too bad.

While it could be said that for every player who develops into a Messier there are a few Dvoraks, but these are young kids. Cut 'em some slack.

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03-05-2007, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CallMeWalter View Post
OK, you're a last word kind of guy (although I'm probably guilty of that for responding), so I'll post this and you can come back and get last last word in.
Not at all. I don't have any intention of always having the last word nor trying to be proven right. I'm just merely presenting my viewpoint and backing it with evidence on my behalf. That is what a typical debate consists of, no? I don't intend to be aggressively argumentative.

Originally Posted by CallmeWalter
First: I never said Lupul was a good power play producer. I questioned your suggestion he wasn't very good on the PP. And I didn't suggest what you said "wasn't true at all." I said "not really true."
This is really all just semantics. I stated that he wasn't a very good pp producer and there were more adept options on the club this season. I cited those as the reasons why he didn't receive first line pp unit time on the club earlier this year.

That's not to say that he couldn't be in the future (Bergeron for the first time I think was over 4 PPP/hr this season) but he just wasn't there at this point.

Originally Posted by CallmeWalter
Second: there are, to use the old saying, lies, damn lies and statistics. They are readily available and you can make them say whatever you want. So, Lupul is .33 under the cut-off line you deem acceptable. Whatever. What do your numbers say about first-unit and second-unit power play time? There are variables.
I have another saying for you. Statistics don't lie; people do. It's all a matter of what you are trying to get statistics to convey. They themselves are just numbers and it's a widely known fact around here that PPP/hr is the better measure of pp efficiency than simply PP pts because it tries to tackle the icetime issue.

Certainly, the fact that being on the 2nd line pp unit has a role to play in this. It would partly explain why he has had such a dropoff from last season to this year. However, the fact that Horcoff (who has been on the 2nd pp unit most of this season) does not show the same effects should be questioned.

To address your question, Lupul would have needed 3 more pp pts to break that 4 PPP/hr plateau. Not a lot of pts, certainly, but he played some of the most PP TOI in ANA that season and nearly everyone else on ANA's pp unit had better numbers I believe (I don't have the numbers in front of me but I would guess that Selanne/McDonald/Getzlaf had better numbers. I could be wrong, though).

Originally Posted by CallmeWalter
Third: Lupul's best performance on the PP in a season so far? I'd hope so as last season was just his second in the NHL. So, how misleading is his "best year" reference?
It still remains true. If you would like me to add a disclaimer next time for the amount of years played, I can certainly do that next time. However, I only used this point to indicate that his performance so far in his career (limited as it is) does not warrant 1st line pp unit time. If they want to give it to him to boost his confidence or some such, that's fine as long as we know that it's not necessarily based on performance.

I can see I've struck a cord with you and that was not my intention at all. I like to debate and I've got into some long time discussions with other members of the board - though, not lately. So I suppose this is my last word on the subject matter.

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